A grim reality

[Dr.Who]

I would like to have the option of euthanasia for myself, to have the option of voluntary euthanasia legal for all who wish to use it. Would you deny it to me, and force me to die a painful, expensive, and lingering death in a hospital?

You already have the option of euthanasia - it is called suicide. The fact that it is illegal should barely make a difference. It's not like they will put you in jail.

I don't advocate suicide but I would advocate allowing terminal patients as much morphine as they would like to reduce pain. Presently the amount they can get is limited.

 

[Dr.Who]

I certainly would not advocate relatives or the state or the hospitals/doctors deciding when a person wants to die - it has to be their own decision.

"The Hague -- Euthanasia in The Netherlands is "beyond effective control", according to a report which shows that one in five assisted suicides is without explicit consent.
[]

The Dutch survey, reviewed in the Journal of Medical Ethics, looked at the figures for 1995 and found that as well as 3,600 authorized cases there were 900 others in which doctors had acted without explicit consent. A follow-up survey found that the main reason for not consulting patients was that they had dementia or were otherwise not competent.

But in 15 percent of cases the doctors avoided any discussion because they thought they were acting in the patient's best interests.

Michael Howitt Wilson, of the Alert campaign against euthanasia, said: "A lot of people in Holland are frightened to go into hospital because of this situation."

Dr Henk Jochensen, of the Lindeboom Institute, and Dr John Keown, of Queens' College, Cambridge carried out the study. They conclude: "The reality is that a clear majority of cases of euthanasia, both with and without request, go unreported and unchecked. Dutch claims of effective regulation ring hollow."
[]

Dr Peggy Norris, chairwoman of the anti-euthanasia group Alert, said: "We need to learn from the Dutch system that euthanasia cannot be controlled."

"I know of patients in a nursing home who are carrying around what they call sanctuary certificates all the time, stating that they do not want to be helped to die. People are afraid of being sick or of being knocked down in case a doctor takes the decision, without their permission, to stop treatment."

http://www.euthanasia.com/holland99.html

 

[samsara15]

As far as I am concerned, Dr Kervorkian was a hero. Oregon and Washington have an assisted suicide law, BTW. Lethal doses of narcotics sound less painful that morphine. I prefer a supervised death. Even shooting yourself in the head often goes awry.

 

[Dr.Who]

As far as I am concerned, Dr Kervorkian was a hero. Oregon and Washington have an assisted suicide law, BTW. Lethal doses of narcotics sound less painful that morphine. I prefer a supervised death. Even shooting yourself in the head often goes awry.

Do you generally subscribe to utilitarian views? If you do, does that word carry no negative connotation for you? Do you subscribe to utility uniformly or just sometimes? If sometimes, then when?

 

[samsara15]

No, I do not. I had not even heard the term used before I went on this forum. I am pretty much a hard core left-liberal, with socialist leanings. I consider myself to be a tree-hugger.

Do you consider yourself a reactionary? Are your opinions far out lf line with others in your profession?

Do you support the use of torture by US troops?

 

[samsara15]

I have always thought of Uitilitariansm as a long dead mode of thought associated with Mills and Betham in the 19th century, an obsolete form of socialism/idealism. I suppose I may have some leanings in that direction, but I have not really ever considered the question seriously.

I thought psychologists were a pretty liberal bunch. You apparently are not. Of what school of thought do you claim to be?

 

[samsara15]

Dr Who, Are you an advocate of deontological ethics or virtue ethics?

 

[Pandora]

As far as I am concerned, Dr Kervorkian was a hero. Oregon and Washington have an assisted suicide law, BTW. Lethal doses of narcotics sound less painful that morphine. I prefer a supervised death. Even shooting yourself in the head often goes awry.

You don’t know very much about doctor assisted suicide in Oregon I take it.

First of all it’s not supervised. The doctor prescribes a boat load of pills that you take home and then take the pills apparently over a period of 1-3 days, depending on how long it takes you to die. You get really sick and have to try not to throw up the pills, you get dehydrated and you have to take the next day’s dose the next day. A number of people who attempted this way to die gave up because it was too painful and took too long.

Now it had problems, became illegal again and went to the Supreme Court, now its coming back to Oregon but the form may be different.

I voted for it the first time; I pictured it like when you take your dog in to the vet to be put down. They lay you on a table and hold your hand to comfort you, you get the gas mask over your face, breath in deep and you are gone. By the time it came around to vote the second time I voted against it.

In part because 40 year old men and women were doctor shopping for their parents because their parents where living too long and cutting into the inheritance that they wanted for them selves, but the second reason I voted against it was the horrific way they let you die. Pills that don’t always work but do always cause pain in a drug out drama that could last 3 days.

 

[Dr.Who]

No, I do not. I had not even heard the term used before I went on this forum. I am pretty much a hard core left-liberal, with socialist leanings. I consider myself to be a tree-hugger.

Do you consider yourself a reactionary? Are your opinions far out lf line with others in your profession?

Do you support the use of torture by US troops?

I thought you were going to say you were utilitarian. Hmmm? I'll look for some non-utilitarian thoughts.

Left liberals are already socialists that doesn't make you any different than the rest of them. Do you lean toward socialism because it respects dignity and worth and values or because it works best? If values then which ones? is a person's right to life greater than a tree's right to life?

No, I am not a reactionary. No my opinions are not as shrinks are not monolithic. Not by troops, but in rare instances by a few with special permissions and checks.

 

[Dr.Who]

I have always thought of Uitilitariansm as a long dead mode of thought associated with Mills and Betham in the 19th century, an obsolete form of socialism/idealism. I suppose I may have some leanings in that direction, but I have not really ever considered the question seriously.

I thought you never heard the term before coming on this forum.

I thought psychologists were a pretty liberal bunch. You apparently are not. Of what school of thought do you claim to be?

I am conservative. I lean toward libertarianism. I advocate a conservative-libertarian view that embraces Christianity and promotes taking care of those who are weak.

 

[samsara15]

I don't consider myself to belong to any school of thought, per se. I lean towards socialism because I believe that the goods produced by society should be more evenly distributed, but I am not doctrinaire.

Now and then I vist this website, where I am considered a sell-out Conservative:

http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/~yuki/cosmos/Fluctuations.htm

and this website, where I am more or less average:

http://turnleftinteractive.yuku.com/

 

[samsara15]

I also believe that the weak deserve protection. I think libertarianism is a cold and heartless philosophy. I am not a Christian, but have some pantheistic feelings.

 

[samsara15]

I thought of assisted suicide like we put down our pets when they get sick and uncurable. I have no experience with Oregon's procedures.

 

[Pandora]

I thought of assisted suicide like we put down our pets when they get sick and uncurable. I have no experience with Oregon's procedures.

Oregons is bad, well it was.. Like I said its coming back but it could have changed form. If it has not, its a horrible way to die.

and you die alone, no doctor stays with you, he gives you the pills and you go home and self medicate till you die or run out of pills or give up

 

[Dr.Who]

Dr Who, Are you an advocate of deontological ethics or virtue ethics?

Man I had half of that answer written out when I hit some key and lost it all.

Anyway, I had to look those up but I would say that I would not favor doing what is "right" without weighing the consequences. Would telling a lie to stop a murder be right? No, telling the lie would be wrong but I would tell it because it would be right to prevent the murder.

virtue ethics if I understand that would value character or values over consequences. An example might be the pharisee who would not touch blood because it would make him ceromoneally unclean. But he failed to love his neighbor. Maybe that is not such a good example because it seems like he just did not weigh two values correctly. I would not steal bread to eat. I believe that is an unrealistic scenario and that bread could always be found through other means than stealing.