A Conception's Right To Life

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And I pointed out to you that the law also recognizes the dead as both human and persons.
The rights of the dead continue on after they are dead and it stands to reason that the law must recognize them as persons if they can continue to exercise the rights of persons after their deaths.
You said that dead human beings are persons. The constitution has many references to the word "person" and the word "citizen" which is legally defined as a "person" born in the US, etc.
I never said that dead humans are covered by the constitution. That is your fabrication.
I know that you did not explicitly argue that, but your argument implicitly leads to that, whether you said it or not. I am using your argument on how you define humans and how you say it is an equivalent to persons.
And that has nothing at all with any part of our discussion. I am not arguing for unborns to have the rights of citizens.
According to your definition of person:
By the 14th amendment (congressional members are apportioned by the number of persons), the dead and unborn should be counted in the census.

By the 19th amendment, the dead have the right to vote.

Again, you were not arguing the above, but the logic you used forces that ludicrous conclusion. I must say that your logic leads to the weirdest interpretations of the constitution.

Check the rolls. Dead republicans very often vote democrat and dead democrats vote neary every cycle.
Is that your argument why the constitution as interpreted by your definition of human is not ludicrous? You are still being ludicrous.
Your argument is logical fallacy.
Now if you are saying that my argument is a logical fallacy, and you are using the same rules in your argument, then you have also made the same argumentative fallacy. In short, you are saying your own argument is logical fallacy.
You are begging the question and simply assuming that I have said a thing that I have not said. In addition, it represents a strawman that you have set up on your own.

Bring forward a quote from me stating that the dead are protected by the constitution, or get yourself a new argument.
I think I have clarified how your use of your logic leads to an absurd conclusion on the interpretation of other aspects of the constitution, although you stayed away from that bag of worms.

I am still waiting for you to explain away the constitutional absurdities to which your type of argument leads.
 
Chip;83838]Which simply proves that BHO is nothing special, a ubiquitous pro-abortionist liberal Democrat.

What his huge win shows is the direction the country wanted to go in. Or in other words America is understandably running away from you!

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palerider;83939]You believe that pointing out your logical fallacy indicates that I am emotionally invested?

No I'm just saying you have lost an haven't mentally been able to come to terms with it. As such you lash out at women.

No problems here.

Sure you do...;)


Steady Majority Favors Keeping Abortion Legal

Public opinion on the legality of abortion has remained relatively stable for well over a decade, with slight majorities of the public consistently saying they favor keeping abortion legal. Polling conducted between 1995 and 2008 reveals that support for keeping abortion legal in all or most cases has fluctuated between 49% and 61% over the 13-year time period. Fewer Americans have tended to express support for making abortion illegal in all or most cases, ranging from a low of 36% to a high of 48% over the same period of time.

At the same time, large majorities have expressed support for the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that established constitutional protections for women seeking an abortion. In October 1989, for instance, more than six-in-ten Americans (61%) said they would oppose seeing the U.S. Supreme Court completely overturn the Roe decision, while only one-in-three (33%) favored overturning Roe. Sixteen years later, in November 2005, two-thirds (65%) continued to express support for keeping Roe as the law of the land, while 26% supported overturning the decision.


Of course we went over it and you lost back then, and you will lose again. First, you seem to be fallaciously arguing that two wrongs somehow can make a right. Then you beg the question and simply assume that those being "killed" are being killed without judicial review. Still no rational argument from you..

No I'm saying that in a free democratic society we get to vote for the rules and laws we wish to live under. And I'm merely pointing out that there are definitely other situations under the law other than abortion where killing is permitted and without judicial review. That's just undeniable and I've documented as such.

Sorry, but once again, you simply lack the historical knowledge required to make a rational argument. No black was ever considered 3/5th of a human being. The 3/5th compromize was an agreement between the north and the south in which 3/5ths of the slave poplation would be counted only for enumeration purposes for the distribution of taxes and the appoointment of members of the house of representatives.

That's what I was saying... from a "value" perspective they were considered 3/5 of a White person. Now please post anywhere in the Constitution where it says these words... slaves are not human beings. Good luck!:D

You don't seem to realize that the facts are not being ignored. Federal law is on a head on collision with itself.

Is your TV broken. Did you not see President Obama just open up funding for overseas women's healthcare that includes abortion information & abortion?

If you are so delusional as to think the tide is moving in your favor you missed the med cart my friend!


Conception and creation are synonyms. Dictionaries and thesarus from the period are availble. Avail yourself to them and become educated. Denial on your part or your own intelletual limitations doesn't change that fact.

U R insane!:D But be that as it may conception and creation are not alway synonyms it depends on the CONTEXT.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...


This is saying that God sees all people as equal. This is saying that people are equal (as in a not to discriminate sense) not giving us a time frame of when a person was a person. At the time period a live birth was considered life. If they said they had created a good apple pie that doesn't mean they were saying there was a sexual conception of life.



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Palerider, where is your quote within this article? The one you cite on the Limit of Viability. The article appears to mainly deal with fetuses 22-25 weeks old. I fail to see your quote.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/22/1597

Nice job samsara. Truly wonderful the way you just pulled the rug of lies right out from beneath palriders feet causing him to eat his own testimony.:)

I believe you may be the best authority on this subject in here.

Thanks for your contributions.


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What his huge win shows is the direction the country wanted to go in. Or in other words America is understandably running away from you!

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Erroneous and irrelevant.

If you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.
 
Take a look at this site, for example. Seems like even defining a human embryo is an ongoing question.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/905

The paper doesn't seem to question the definiton of naturally occuring embryos, or those that are the result of IVF. The questions arise with regard to those that are the result of SCNT or some such manipulation and have little to do with the abortion issue. None the less, they don't seem to be questioning that human embryo's are human beings but how far outside of sexual reproduction can one move and still produce a human embryo.

The embryo, BTW is identified as a 'discrete entity'.

So are you. What is your point?
 
The point is that biologists, or doctors, or other scientists working in related fields of inquiry do not normally say anything about when 'human' life begins unless they have an ideological axe to grind. I looked to see if I could find any such 'scientific' or 'medical' definition of a human being on the Internet, but found zilch. Does AAAS make any such definitiopn? I think not.

I recall when I used to post on the "Bad Science" web site, and encountered a bunch of creationists PHDs in Physics trying vigorously to argue that the earth was the center of the universe, being challenged by other mainline physicists. Needless to say, they were far outside the mainstream of their profession, and were being badly battered.
 
AAAS, BTW, normally DOES take a stand on political issues of interest to sciencists. Evolution and Global Warming, for example. So their silence on the matter of when human life begins is telling us something.
 
AAAS, BTW, normally DOES take a stand on political issues of interest to sciencists. Evolution and Global Warming, for example. So their silence on the matter of when human life begins is telling us something.
Irrelevent, and unwarranted assumption.

It likely tells us that they are pro-abortionists or that their organization is leftist and they've been ordered to remain silent on the matter of abortion, silence which reveals that they know the truth of the personhood of the newly conceived, so the best they can do is keep silent.

It's about science, not "scientists" ... as even scientists can become corrupted, as Dr. Mengele so horrifically typifies.

The science of the opening post is an accurate presentation of the reality of the personhood of the newly conceived, not subject to rational conjecture even from rogue scientists, and it remains the scientific truth on the matter regardless of what any political organization says or doesn't say.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.
 
Just like GWB, you label the largest organization of mainstream scientists in the world, the voice of science in the US, 'Left Wing', because they dare oppose your POV, as they did that of GWB on Stem Cell research. Apparently, you don't even know who or what they are. OK.

Just don't expect everyone else to take your views of what is 'good science' very seriously. The scientific truth of the matter is quite clearly not what you state. What you choose to label as relevant or irrelevant is also clearly not of serious interest.
 
Erroneous and irrelevant.

If you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.

It's already been explained numerous times that there is more to a full person than just the beginnings of fertilization and cells dividing. A complete person has feelings and numerous other attributes that a fertilized egg just does not hold.

What you have @ conception is the possibility of a person being born and even that possibility is often naturally removed by just regular nature such as in a miscarriage or still born birth.

This being the case to try and label women as murderers for having an abortion would bring up another interesting circumstance. What if the woman forced to have a child against her will were to die in childbirth and the child survive. Since the child killed her and even that act was forced by the state... should not all offending parties be held criminally liable? Certainly appears that way.

All this being the case it's just nice to point out that the country is moving away even further from your preference. And that my friend even though it upsets you Clinic Creepers is a very good thing for women in general.


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The point is that biologists, or doctors, or other scientists working in related fields of inquiry do not normally say anything about when 'human' life begins unless they have an ideological axe to grind.
Misapplied. Unwarranted assumption.

What their organizations tell them to say or not say is irrelevant with respect to the truth.

You can hunt all over the internet for an "A"thority to which to appeal, but that won't negate the scientific truth of the opening post.

What usually occurs is that the ideological axe to grind that forces them to keep silence on murderous abortion is pro-abortionist leftism.

Indeed, many of these people dislike the facts of the opening post of this thread, because it means they would have to make the tough choice not to commit murderous abortion, and so they choose instead to stuff their feelings of guilt and pretend their very own science doesn't really present the truth that it does about the personhood of the newly conceived.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



I looked to see if I could find any such 'scientific' or 'medical' definition of a human being on the Internet, but found zilch.
Irrelevant.

Your supposed inabilities to find what is right there in front of you in the opening post of this thread is more likely for lack of effort than lack of being present.

That you actually keep questioning the obvious reality of the high school textbook level science of the opening post is truly laughable.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



Does AAAS make any such definitiopn? I think not.
Irrelevant.

Just because a political organization of scientists keep silent on the matter proves nothing ... except that they are silent.

It indicates, however, their political perspective.

Science and the scientific method is what it is, regardless of which groups support or reject its findings.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



I recall when I used to post on the "Bad Science" web site, and encountered a bunch of creationists PHDs in Physics trying vigorously to argue that the earth was the center of the universe, being challenged by other mainline physicists. Needless to say, they were far outside the mainstream of their profession, and were being badly battered.
Anecdotal and meaningless. Topically irrelevant.

Your allusion is not to be trusted on face value anyway, as you have a pro-abortionist's ideological axe to grind, and so you are likely, as you've exhibited in this thread already, to misrepresent the truth.

Would you like me to list all the pro-life groups and link their web sites that support the true science of the opening post? I thought not. I chose not to play "my 'A'uthority vs. your 'A'authority", as that simply leads to ignorant stalemate. I chose instead to simply post the common-knowledge science of the matter and explain it in simple and accurate terms, which I've done.

There is no mistaking the accuracy of the science that declares the newly conceived to be a human being, a person.

The fact of the matter is that your desperate search on the internet for refutation lead you nowhere, and now you're hoping to use silent groups to "state" opposition to the truth of the opening post, as if that will win you any debate points. :D

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it. :cool:
 
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Just like GWB, you label the largest organization of mainstream scientists in the world, the voice of science in the US, 'Left Wing',
Irrelevant and meaningless and erroneous.

The size of an organization is irrelevant.

You call them "mainstream" scientists, so that's obviously an indication of the fact that they are not.

You call them "the voice of science in the US", which again likely means that they don't speak for anyone but their organization, which is obviously pro-abortion.

Yes, I "dare" to label them left-wing because they obviously are, first because I know about them and they are indeed left-wing in politics, meaning pro-abortionist, and second because you say they aren't!

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



because they dare oppose your POV,
Erroneous.

I label them left-wing because they are.

That they remain silent on murderous abortion only substantiates my ascertation.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



as they did that of GWB on Stem Cell research.
Well, there you go -- you couldn't have given a better example of their pro-abortionist politics!

They favor killing newly conceived people on which to do experiments -- an entire organization which favors Dr. Mengele's approach to laboratory management.

Game over, Samsara15 -- you've hoisted yourself on your own petard! :eek: ... :D

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



Apparently, you don't even know who or what they are. OK.
Erroneous.

From your previous statement it is now even more obvious that I know who they are and that their politics as an organization is leftist pro-abortion.

It is you who either doesn't know who they are, or who is purposely misrepresenting the truth of their politics.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



Just don't expect everyone else to take your views of what is 'good science' very seriously.
Irrelevant.

I posted the truth in the opening post.

You can expect me to defend it against your pro-abortionist sophistries.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.



The scientific truth of the matter is quite clearly not what you state.
False. Unsubstantiated. Unproven.

But if you insist it's wrong, why do you keep refusing to ... well, you know ...

... Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it. :cool:



What you choose to label as relevant or irrelevant is also clearly not of serious interest.
Irrelevent, Erroneous, and meaningless.

Again, if you have a clear accurate on-point scientifically formulated refutation to the opening post, then please post it.

:rolleyes:
 
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