US ambassador 'killed in Libya'. US consulate Benghazi stormed. 4 US officials "dead"

There are so many examples where Christian leaders use reference in the Bible for political power. Some of the Popes in the Middle Ages were not even clergy but exercise both political power and spiritual power .They waged war in the name of their religion but used the armies of the poltilical states they control and influence. The most famous example is the crusades which were supposly wage for religious object to free the Holy City but were in fact waged to gain power to European states. The Inq2uisition where people were tried for religious crimes like heresy by state courts influence by the religious leaders. The witch trials at Salem but were in fact the same. The victims were label witchess and wizards by religious leaders and tried in civill courts Examples were Demark Vvesey and other negroes slaves who were sentence to death. Even white people who were different were tried. This applies even today in the Bible Belt where three young men were found guilty of killing children have now been release as the evidence were not conclusive.
Where even any religion has political power it often uses uses it to impose its religious views.
OMG ... I am so sick of this liberal talkin point. You wacko liberals are all the same. Please allow me to put this in perspective for you. While you are trying to make a false liberal talking point ... obviously some BS you have read on 0ne of your brain washin wacko liberal website!

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)

Please, if you can ... site another source that is more current and of course more relevant!

 
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OMG ... I am so sick of this liberal talkin point. You wacko liberals are all the same. Please allow me to put this in perspective for you. While you are trying to make a false liberal talking point ... obviously some BS you have read on 0ne of your brain washin wacko liberal website!

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (source)

Please, if you can ... site another source that is more current and of course more relevant!
The Sourse you quote merely says not many people were killed in the Inquistion. A sttement I have made many times in defending my Church. It does not give any proof of how many people were kill in Islam countries due to persecution not war. Such an answere would be impossible to obtain today as it is very recent and there is tight censorship in most of the countries concerned
 
The Sourse you quote merely says not many people were killed in the Inquistion. A sttement I have made many times in defending my Church. It does not give any proof of how many people were kill in Islam countries due to persecution not war. Such an answere would be impossible to obtain today as it is very recent and there is tight censorship in most of the countries concerned
Maybe this is true ....but we all know that the reality is well within context ...
 
Regime-change Saudi Arabia! It's the only way to solve the jihadi terror problem at its root. Only when petrodollars are being spent in the interests of the Arab people by a government they elect will the funding of terrorism dry up and the war on terror finally be won.

Peter, I'm not an expert on this area of the world but my understanding is that the Saudi royal family is very large and politically diverse. In your opinion, is it a waste of time to attempt to intervene and "elevate" those in that family who are already more pro-western instead of changing the regime and taking our chances with the vagaries of democracy?
 
Peter, I'm not an expert on this area of the world but my understanding is that the Saudi royal family is very large and politically diverse. In your opinion, is it a waste of time to attempt to intervene and "elevate" those in that family who are already more pro-western instead of changing the regime and taking our chances with the vagaries of democracy?


take chances with the outcome ? its trending hard to one direction nowadays.
 
Right after 9/11, I tried to do some serious reading about Saudi Arabia. With Bin Laden coming from that country and Bush being so friendly with the King, it was confusing to me. I came away with a vague understanding that even though it is an Islamic (absolute) Monarchy, the King (at the time) was friendly with the west, in a geo-political sense. Not just because of OPEC, and how disruptions in that industry affects the world's economies, but also because of their hatred for countries like Saddam's Iraq and the crazy ayatollah in Iran. They have let us use their air-fields during the gulf wars. I also think we got some intellegence from them.

One article explained somewhat, the dynamics inside the ruling classes, and there was a division of power between the crown princes. One of them was the brother of the King, and he used tight control on the inner workings of the country, especially in applying very rigid laws over the people. I came away with the impression that if the monarchy falls, that country could become our worst nightmare, depending on who was in their leadership positions.

These relationships, especially in these Muslim countries with all their different factions, are delicate, tedious and tricky. Upsetting the status quo comes with an unkown future cost, as we have learned with Iran. We Americans, including our leadership, are ignorant to the history and understanding of the balance inside these countries. You can't promote democracy, and then leave a vaccuum to be filled by something worse. I see nothing good coming out of Egypt for us in the not to distant future.
 
You are missing the point of an embassy with your argument here. The embassy in Libya is already well secured -- it is the consulate that was not.

The building in Tripoli now being used as the US embassy is not up to the usual US embassy security standards - it is a temporary facility being used because the embassy proper was wrecked by Gaddafi's thugs in May 2011.

So it is not only the Benghazi consulate that was not up to the highest security standards. The newly sent US Marines guarding the US Embassy in Tripoli will help a lot but something like a terrorist truck bomb could maybe still kill a lot of people so I am concerned that it is not safe to continue operating out of that building.

The President should -
  • Close all vulnerable diplomatic embassies and consulates in countries with a war-on-terror connection, with an armed jihadi terrorist groups threat
  • Establish new secure embassies and consulates within new or existing military bases
I have another option for my President's to-do list.
  • Alternatively, anchor a suitable US Navy vessel offshore and designate it as an "embassy" and run diplomatic and consular functions from onboard.

Embassy Ship / Ship Embassy

For Libya with the major cities on the coast the embassy ship -anchoring a suitable US Navy vessel offshore and designating it an "embassy" - could be a good workable secure solution which could be up and running very quickly.

For Libya it would be possible to have two ships - a larger "embassy ship" anchoring 12 plus miles offshore off of Tripoli and a second smaller "consulate ship" anchored 12 miles plus offshore off of Benghazi.

I think for Libya the ship embassy solution is a good idea to try out and get some experience of how practical and useful operating a remote embassy some distance from the capital city might be. This experience could be invaluable to inform the design requirements of a remote fortress embassy within a special-purpose military base on land.

So long as the ship embassy wasn't anchored too close to land within missile, mortar or artillery range of the shore I would think it would be fairly safe. I assume it would be a US Navy ship with guns, missiles and marines of course.

Better still is over the horizon 12 miles plus offshore so that helicopters flying from ship to shore can initially fly parallel to the shore but unseen from the shore for an unpredictable distance before turning and heading inland.

If as I have read there are indeed a large number of ground-to-air missiles in the hands of terrorists in Libya then we need to bear in mind that travelling by helicopter can be vulnerable to those missiles or even machine gun fire so it is best security procedure to do things like change the route so that terrorists never know where to lie in wait, have an attack helicopter escort, equip the helicopters used with anti-missile devices etc.

Ambassador and diplomatic functions on an embassy ship

The ambassador would live on the embassy ship normally but could fly by helicopter onshore for private diplomatic meetings with the Libyan government and with others.

Public appearances by the ambassador or US diplomats in Libya should never be advertised in advance.

Even if the ambassador or another diplomat achieves surprise by arriving unexpectedly at a public event in Tripoli or Benghazi, remember that very quickly the word will get out and terrorists with ground-to-air missiles will be on their way to follow the diplomat leaving and to try to shoot down the helicopter when it departs. So don't wait around visiting for too long and lose the advantage of surprise. A quick landing, speech, wave, photo for the cameras, drive away, take off, back to ship - all before the terrorists have organised a response.

Routine embassy and consular services

There are a number of alternative methods of doing business these days which don't involve customer and business ever being in the same building or location. Information can be exchanged by telephone or by internet allowing the embassy officials on ship to provide some services as a mail order company would.

In the case of valuable original customer documents, such as passports, which embassy officials required to have hands-on access to, embassy customers or their couriers could drop those off somewhere secure, at the site of the former embassy perhaps, which could then be sent by secure courier to the embassy ship by armoured truck, boat or helicopter, in a diplomatic bag.

Documents could be returned from the embassy ship to the customer by similar methods.

But yes the more I think about it, the ship embassy concept looks good to go!

Then negotiations between the US and Libya can proceed in a more relaxed way thinking, planning and building a secure US embassy on land, perhaps a fortress embassy in a new US military base situated in the Libyan desert?

The idea that we are going to build a military base (complete with airfields) and call it an "embassy" is not going to fly almost anywhere in the world.

There are US military bases in UK, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greenland, Kosovo, Israel, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Djibouti, Qatar, Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Guam, Brazil and Cuba.

Which one of those friendly countries would object if the US ambassador ran the embassy from the existing military base - just one additional function for the existing military base? No problemo. :cool:

It might look strange if there was no security threat to the ambassador but if there was a threat, an embassy military base would be no problem for a friendly country with a military base already to agree to.

The bigger issue is that some countries don't agree to have a US military base on its territory - for any reason!

Libya has not yet agreed to have a US military base for any reason. If it did, if Libya was OK with the idea of a US military base in its territory, then I suspect the US ambassador staying there at that military base would be no big issue.

Also, there's no requirement to have airfields for an embassy military base. I propose helicopter travel for diplomats and you don't need a runway for that.
 
Peter Drew , There are many countries that would welcome an American Ambassador but not a base. Saudi Arabia would be one. I dount even Libya would tolerate American ships for long onces they establish a government. The mistakes that the American Ambassador made was to use a temporary building that was not even an Embassy
 
Peter, I'm not an expert on this area of the world but my understanding is that the Saudi royal family is very large and politically diverse.
The Saudi royals will unite politically to oppose any threat our values and political ideas pose to their "divine right" to remain the ruling family of Arabia.

Think of the villains in your favourite super-hero movie - a diverse bunch but they all want to kill the super-hero.

In your opinion, is it a waste of time to attempt to intervene and "elevate" those in that family who are already more pro-western
A Saudi prince could be "pro-Western" in the sense that he
  • likes Western movies - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western music - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western cars - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western universities - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western drugs - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western women - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
Some of them may want to live a Western life style when it suits them but they want to be re-ruling class at home and so they will wage war on us to keep freedom and democracy on the defensive in Arabia.

Every little concession that the Saudis feel they have to make to appease the West - for example, women's rights - they will smile at to our faces, resent 100%, add that to the causes of war between us and vow to kill us by the thousands for daring of even thinking of exerting the tiniest little bit of influence whatsoever over their rule.

instead of changing the regime and taking our chances with the vagaries of democracy?
Well let's look at the certainties of the Saudi rule -
  • the Saudi regime funded Bin Laden and Al Qaeda to do 9/11 terrorist attacks and killed 3000 Americans
  • the Saudi regime funded terrorists in Iraq to kill 4000 American soldiers
  • the Saudi regime funded terrorist in Afghanistan to kill 2000 American soldiers
10,000 dead Americans with a Saudi kingdom and no democracy.

Supposing with regime change to democracy, the Arabs are given free and fair elections. Don't you think more Arabs, like Americans, will probably vote for someone they think who is going to give them rights, freedom, well-paid jobs and not someone who wants to pay terrorists to kill Americans?

You need to understand that all the money which is pouring out of Saudi Arabia to fund terrorism, either directly or via a front business man or a charity or a foreign state (such as Pakistani military intelligence) who then pass the money on to the terrorists - is being paid with the full consent and knowledge of the Saudi royals.

The Saudi kingdom is waging a covert war against the US, Britain, Europe and much of the rest of the world and it nothing really to do with religion or culture (that's just how they spin the war to their people) and it has everything to do with them resisting the idea that the people can be more powerful than the king.

Our idea appeals to the Arab people and the Saudi royals are desperate to beat our ideas in the minds of their own people and inciting Arabs and Muslims to a jihah against the West is the distraction method like you would shake a rattle to distract a child from crying.
 
Peter, I'm not an expert on this area of the world but my understanding is that the Saudi royal family is very large and politically diverse.
The Saudi royals will unite politically to oppose any threat our values pose to their "divine right" to remain the ruling family of Arabia.

Think of the villains in your favourite super-hero movie - a diverse bunch but they all want to kill the super-hero.

In your opinion, is it a waste of time to attempt to intervene and "elevate" those in that family who are already more pro-western
A Saudi prince could be "pro-Western" in the sense that he
  • likes Western movies - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western music - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western cars - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western universities - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western drugs - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
  • likes Western women - and hates our freedom & democracy that threatens his rule
Some of them may want to live a Western life style when it suits them but they want to remain the ruling class at home and so they will wage war on us to keep freedom and democracy on the defensive in Arabia.

Every little concession that the Saudis feel they have to make to appease the West - for example, women's rights - they will smile at to our faces, resent 100%, add that to the causes of war between us and vow to kill us by the thousands for daring of even thinking of exerting the tiniest little bit of influence whatsoever over their rule.

instead of changing the regime and taking our chances with the vagaries of democracy?
Well let's look at the certainties of the Saudi rule -
  • the Saudi regime funded Bin Laden and Al Qaeda to do 9/11 terrorist attacks and killed 3000 Americans
  • the Saudi regime funded terrorists in Iraq to kill 4000 American soldiers
  • the Saudi regime funded terrorists in Afghanistan to kill 2000 American soldiers
About 10,000 dead Americans with a Saudi kingdom and no democracy.

Supposing with regime change to democracy, the Arabs are given free and fair elections. Don't you think more Arabs, like Americans, will probably vote for someone they think who is going to give them rights, freedom, well-paid jobs and not someone who wants to pay terrorists to kill Americans?

You need to understand that all the money which is pouring out of Saudi Arabia to fund terrorism, either directly or via a front business man or a charity or a foreign state (such as Pakistani military intelligence) who then pass the money on to the terrorists - is being paid with the full consent and knowledge of the Saudi royals.

The Saudi kingdom is waging a covert war against the US, Britain, Europe and much of the rest of the world and it is nothing really to do with religion or culture (that's just how they spin the war to their people) and it has everything to do with them resisting the idea that the people can be more powerful than the king.

Our democratic ideas appeal to the Arab people and the Saudi royals are desperate to beat our ideas in the minds of their own people and inciting Arabs and Muslims to a jihad against the West is the distraction method, like you would shake a rattle to distract a child from crying.

The Arabs are crying for their freedom so the King of Saudi Arabia gets his terrorists to set off big bombs and blow up our people and buildings and says - "Look Arabs, dry your eyes, see the big bang daddy made!".
 
Dow, the name's Dow.
My name is not "Drew"! OK. I will answer your point later in turn. I just think you should get my name right!
:mad:
Sorry Peter Dow. I answer Quickly as I was running out of time. I would welcome your reply.
 
Fox’s Eric Bolling Calls Jay Carney A Liar, Accuses White House Of ‘Cover Up’ Over Benghazi Attacks

“This is a White House coverup,” he alleged. “The State Department says, ‘We’re not part of the coverup. We’ll tell the truth the day before the hearing.’ And even more disturbing: They stonewalled for three weeks so we couldn’t find out exactly what happened. Meanwhile, four americans are dead.”

It's not a cover-up, it's a cover-up of a cover-up.
It now appears the Killing of the Ambassador was terrorist plot to mark the anniversary of September 11. I hope it not repeated today in Bali.

Not only Americans but all Westerners have to learn to get on with Muslims. Australia nearest neighbour is Indonesia. Our Embassy has been attacked but we never consider withdrawing. We have a good relation with the Indonesian government. Our leaders are visiting today. To have diplomatic relations you must take risk. Having no relations or is ships like Peter Dow suggest is worst
 
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