The Pessimism of the Left

Yes, really. It's human nature to always want more money than you are getting. I didn't say anything about the ramifications. If you want to bring that up, the ramifications will always be there.

Your Marxism currently exists in another way. A large majority of families getting aid from the government have jobs. Wages are not enough to live on. The government makes up for the low wages through welfare. I would think that you would be more concerned by that as force of Marxism rather than the ramifications of rising prices. In that sense the government is subsidizing Walmart, McDonalds, etc.

Me and my “Marxist” friends much prefer capitalism over Marxism.

You sure have a dystopian view of the future. Here is an important question for you: What sort of deprogramming of the “brainwashed idiots” would you propose in order to save America.

Apparently GB has answered your questions for me. With the exception of failing to mention that 92 million Americans are out of work because of Obama's Marxist policies and that may have something to do with the 47 million who are on Food Assistance and NOTHING to do with low wages!

Now, to answer your question about deprogramming the brainwashed idiots in order to save America.. This will not happen. Liberalism is a mental disorder. It would take intense treatment for most folks who suffer from this disorder to open their minds and become a Free Thinking person.
 
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I wonder ... did you, by any chance, research that comment about "A large majority of families getting aid ..."? Did you, perchance, notice how many of them are only part-time, and how many of those were because of onerous government policy?

I suspect that you'll find you are blaming the wrong people ...
A Republican congressman made that remark and the veracity was checked by a newspaper (PolitiFacts) that provided government statistics. It makes sense because about 40% of American families are getting government aid of some sort and unemployment is about 5 times lower than that.
Subsidize Walmart, McDonalds, etc? Don't you actually mean the government is subsidizing YOU? If they didn't have welfare, YOU would have to pay more for the product.

Sure that is true too. But you can also say that the government is subsidizing the franchises by giving monetary aid to make up for the low wages that the franchises pay. So the government is in that sense subsidizing both the people and the companies. And it all comes from increased taxes. There has got to be a better way.
So, let's ask the question directly ... are you willing to pay up to 16% more for your purchases in order to raise the minimum wage? Are you also willing to divert up to 16% of your taxes away from services, in order to pay government workers an increased minimum wage, or more appropriately, willing to increase your tax load by 16%?

Nobody including me wants to pay more taxes, and I would gladly listen to any other options you might have that would allow people to get jobs that pay enough to live on.
Try this research ... check out the price of a restaurant hamburger in San Francisco (where the minimum wage has been raised to $10.55) and then, check out the price of a restaurant hamburger in Philadelphia (where minimum wage is $7.25) ... the difference ... just about $2.00 more in San Francisco ($6.84 versus $8.96). Now, multiply that type of increase across all your purchases.

Oh, by the way .... $2.55 for a liter of milk in Philadelphia, and $2.83 in San Francisco ... Gallon of gas $3.27 in Philadelphia, and $3.71 in San Francisco

You can do this exercise as many times as you want .. and any cities you want .... the higher the minimum wage, the higher the cost of products.
I tried researching your numbers but McDonalds does not give prices on the web. What is your source?

It is well known that the cost of living varies from region to region. If there was a relation between identical goods from the same franchise and minimum wage at different locations, you would have to show a cause and effect relation - that minimum wage is a major cause, and not city and state taxes and other causes. For example prices are higher at Lake Tahoe because gas has to be trucked to a remote location uphill, city taxes have to cover large snowfalls, etc.

So I could easily argue that the minimum wage set by different communities is altered to balance the higher cost of living for that community, which is the opposite of what you are proposing.

I doubt if the cost of gas is caused by the minimum wage of a gas station attendant because there is generally one attendant per station who oversees a huge volume of business. A $3 increase in wages is less than the cost of just one gallon of gas. Gas truck drivers are paid higher wages, and thus have no effect from the minimum wage law.
Talk's cheap ---
Ain't that the truth.
 
Now, to answer your question about deprogramming the brainwashed idiots in order to save America.. This will not happen. Liberalism is a mental disorder. It would take intense treatment for most folks who suffer from this disorder to open their minds and become a Free Thinking person.
You didn't answer the question. You only said that it is difficult. We all know that deprogramming is difficult. So what would that intense treatment focus on. How would that treated Free Thinking person be different from his/her former self?
 
A Republican congressman made that remark and the veracity was checked by a newspaper (PolitiFacts) that provided government statistics. It makes sense because about 40% of American families are getting government aid of some sort and unemployment is about 5 times lower than that.


Sure that is true too. But you can also say that the government is subsidizing the franchises by giving monetary aid to make up for the low wages that the franchises pay. So the government is in that sense subsidizing both the people and the companies. And it all comes from increased taxes. There has got to be a better way.


Nobody including me wants to pay more taxes, and I would gladly listen to any other options you might have that would allow people to get jobs that pay enough to live on.

I tried researching your numbers but McDonalds does not give prices on the web. What is your source?

It is well known that the cost of living varies from region to region. If there was a relation between identical goods from the same franchise and minimum wage at different locations, you would have to show a cause and effect relation - that minimum wage is a major cause, and not city and state taxes and other causes. For example prices are higher at Lake Tahoe because gas has to be trucked to a remote location uphill, city taxes have to cover large snowfalls, etc.

So I could easily argue that the minimum wage set by different communities is altered to balance the higher cost of living for that community, which is the opposite of what you are proposing.

I doubt if the cost of gas is caused by the minimum wage of a gas station attendant because there is generally one attendant per station who oversees a huge volume of business. A $3 increase in wages is less than the cost of just one gallon of gas. Gas truck drivers are paid higher wages, and thus have no effect from the minimum wage law.

Ain't that the truth.

1) My comment wasn't questioning your statistic ... but, rather, noting that your statistic failed to recognize the number of people chained to poverty because of government policy.

2) I would maintain that it is not MY responsibility to ensure that you get a 'living wage'. That is YOUR responsibility.

I am continually amazed by the presumption that people are, somehow, owed something. Virtually every article you read about those affected by the minimum wage explains why they are affected ... I recently read an article, decrying the low minimum wage, about a woman who was complaining that she couldn't live on the part-time wages from McDonalds where she worked in CA. She was a 7 year employee, and had only one pay raise in that time, and was making $8.25 ... you know, the classic victim. However, nobody made note of the interview having to be conducted through an interpreter, because she didn't speak English, or that one contributor to her problem was because she was supporting a household that included her mother, three kids, a niece and two nephews. So, you have to ask yourself ... is the problem the job she has, or is it the life decisions she has made?

I also would suggest that we know that the prime contributors to poverty is the lack of education and the demise of the two-parent household. If, instead of giving the poor a crutch, we were to divert that money into education or into a program that promoted marriage, the cause would be better served.

Having spent a significant amount of time in a significant amount of foreign countries, I think I can recognize real poverty ... and there are damn little of it in this country. What they are really complaining about is that they don't have as big a piece of the pie as others. They forget the size of their slice of the pie is directly proportional to the size of their contribution to the pie.

3) As for the price of hamburger and milk, as I said ... it was an anecdotal comparison based on Internet ads. I invited you to conduct your own research. There is a direct correlation. I would challenge you to show me a city where an increased minimum labor wage is NOT reflected in the relative increase in product price.

It is naive to believe that the cost of labor doesn't directly contribute to the price of the product. If the price of a product increase, the cost of living increases. It is NOT the other way around ... as you posit. If you were to say that the cost of a product increases because the cost of labor increased because the cost of living increased .... duh! That is exactly what happens in this country .... a never-ending spiral upward.

You cite serve-yourself gas stations where labor is a relatively low cost contributor .. in return, I will cite your local McDonalds where labor is about 35% of the retail price. You choose to work at the minimum wage level only, but fail to consider the impact on above-minimum wage jobs. The ripple moves up the labor scale, as well.

I read an article this morning about the UAW rejection at the VW plant in Chatanooga, TN. It was interesting, but I was struck by a note in there that one guy who opposed the union was making 'over $20/hour' hanging doors on the assembly line. Do we seriously believe that is an appropriate wage? Let's assume that $20/hr is the average wage in that plant (we know it is probably much higher - I'm pretty sure 'door hanger' is not the top of the technical labor scale). Further, let's assume that the change in minimum wage results in a 3% average wage increase ripple upward, the 2000 employees would now cost VW an additional $2.4 million in labor costs. Think they are going to just absorb that, or are they going to pass it on to you?
 
Sure, this is an age of broken families, few jobs, people caught in a trap with no education to get out of it. And sure we owe them nothing. And sure, lack of education is one prime problem in getting a livable wage.

For those who can't afford private schools, education sucks. Even at universities education in the hard sciences is being dumbed down. (Source: experiences of older professors and edicts from deans.) Students want to graduate as fast as they can, with the highest grades, doing the minimal amount, and the universities are catering to their wishes.

As far as job opportunities, they are becoming fewer for the less educated, but there is a shortage of people with the advanced skills need for the job opportunities available. (Article in the news business section.)

As far as the VW plant. It's an old story. People are always clamoring for more money no matter how much you get and how little you deserve it, you always want more. No surprise. It's human nature. If you are offered a raise or bonus do you refuse because it might be a drain on the company or anyone else? Nope.

Low and middle paying jobs are diminishing because of advanced automation. Have you seen any videos of auto manufacturing? Dozens of robots with nobody around. Semiconductor plants look toward “lights out” manufacturing where when the engineers go home, the plant still operates. Telephone assistance given by computer voice recognition; artificial intelligence where email is read by a computer using neural networks in software to classify the mail, recognize what is wanted , write a response, and send it off in seconds. Cameras with pattern recognition replace eyeballs.

Fifty years ago 1/3 of the population worked in manufacturing. Since 1960 2 out of 3 factory jobs were lost to outsourcing and automation. The service industries now account for 80% of employment, and some of these industries are being replaced by automation too. Retail jobs are giving way to e-tail. In this brave new world it seems that higher paid skilled employees are furiously working in areas that reduce costs by automation that would eliminate lower paying jobs.

'Tis kismet. As we head toward a plutocracy that has little empathy for the unfortunate we head for a dystopia. I see no viable way out. Do you?
 
You didn't answer the question. You only said that it is difficult. We all know that deprogramming is difficult. So what would that intense treatment focus on. How would that treated Free Thinking person be different from his/her former self?
Here's one for you Lag ....

Listen to conservative talk radio. That's right, Rush, Sean, Mark Levin, etc ...

It may not fix this disorder, however, if you have some actual real rebuttals to what they are saying at least you will sound like the most informed liberal around .... ;)
 
Here's one for you Lag ....

Listen to conservative talk radio. That's right, Rush, Sean, Mark Levin, etc ...

It may not fix this disorder, however, if you have some actual real rebuttals to what they are saying at least you will sound like the most informed liberal around .... ;)
Believe it or not I read one of Limbaugh's books just to see what he was. He said he started as a shock jock and his network boss suggested to change his focus to politics. I listened to him in the 90's on the radio on the way to lunch. I think he still is a shock jock. He struck me as too whiny, with little insight.

I know what Hannity and Beck talk about and it's not about deprogramming brainwashed liberals. It would save a lot of time if you simply told me how a Free Thinker is different than a brainwashed liberal.
 
It would save a lot of time if you simply told me how a Free Thinker is different than a brainwashed liberal.
I cannot tell you the obvious ... either you get it or you you don't.

However, I see you have not listened or read anything they have covered currently.

I will make you this challenge. I think .... I am busy working, which I assume you are too ... but, if you will pick a conservative talk show program to listen to and challenge me accordingly .... I will try to listen or read a liberal program of your choosing and we can debate accordingly.

I will not hold you totally accountable, because I assume your life is busy as mine and I will expect the same from you.

Maybe this will spur some current and relevant debate!
 
I cannot tell you the obvious ... either you get it or you you don't.

However, I see you have not listened or read anything they have covered currently.

I will make you this challenge. I think .... I am busy working, which I assume you are too ... but, if you will pick a conservative talk show program to listen to and challenge me accordingly .... I will try to listen or read a liberal program of your choosing and we can debate accordingly.

I will not hold you totally accountable, because I assume your life is busy as mine and I will expect the same from you.

Maybe this will spur some current and relevant debate!
Why can't you tell me the obvious. If it is obvious, surely you can put it into a few short sentences. If I don't get it, I surely would tell you.

My suggestion is The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He is much more palatable than anything on MSNBC, which I have not watched for years.

However, some days Stewart doesn't have much to say, so it would be better if I picked a few short youtube videos of Stewart's better shows, and you picked a few videos that you would think cover what you think is worthwhile.
 
Personally, I think the answer is to embrace the technology. Use it ... let it produce the kind of economy that will be able to support our population. We need to protect the technology, not share it with competing countries, but we need to use it to advance our economy.

BUT ... I don't believe in just giving it to the people. They need to earn it ... whatever that means. Write a book - study a science - sweep a street. It is crucial to the human condition that they feel self-supported. I believe there needs to be a structure to make people strive - a streetsweeper makes a living wage, even though he only works 10 a week, an author gets two times a living wage, a robot operator 3 times, an engineer 4 times. Whatever it takes ... there must be a structure that demands personal growth.
 
Why can't you tell me the obvious. If it is obvious, surely you can put it into a few short sentences. If I don't get it, I surely would tell you.

My suggestion is The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He is much more palatable than anything on MSNBC, which I have not watched for years.

However, some days Stewart doesn't have much to say, so it would be better if I picked a few short youtube videos of Stewart's better shows, and you picked a few videos that you would think cover what you think is worthwhile.
Lag .... really ... Jon Stewart. This is obviously your problem. You are getting your current news from wacko entertainment.

I am not willing to debate this. Choose something relevant. Something that deals with current news stories. And, don't give me that BS that conservative radio is entertainment. It is not and they discuss current events outside of humor ... I will not accept SNL either ....

Try again or remain in the liberal category of accepting humor for real hardline news!
 
Lag .... really ... Jon Stewart. This is obviously your problem. You are getting your current news from wacko entertainment.

I am not willing to debate this. Choose something relevant. Something that deals with current news stories. And, don't give me that BS that conservative radio is entertainment. It is not and they discuss current events outside of humor ... I will not accept SNL either ....

Try again or remain in the liberal category of accepting humor for real hardline news!
SNL is not news. Yes Stewart is on comedy central. He is sometimes too silly and hard to take when news is slow. But there are times when he is very articulate and penetrates to the core of the problem that is in the current news. That is the sort of video that would give a liberal perspective better than Rachel Madow or whatever they have on MSNBC.

Stewart, when he is serious is a counterpart to O'Reily.

Otherwise the news I watch is just factual events with no political slant or opinion one way or another. There is nothing to debate.
 
Apparently GB has answered your questions for me. With the exception of failing to mention that 92 million Americans are out of work because of Obama's Marxist policies and that may have something to do with the 47 million who are on Food Assistance and NOTHING to do with low wages!

Now, to answer your question about deprogramming the brainwashed idiots in order to save America.. This will not happen. Liberalism is a mental disorder. It would take intense treatment for most folks who suffer from this disorder to open their minds and become a Free Thinking person.

Bush in 8 years, no jobs created....Obama a lot ( though not enough) so yes thats marxism kicking Republican ass

also you fucking idiots have no idea what Marxism is....none
 
Really ... at the expense of putting these companies out of business. Do you really think forcing these companies who depend on minimum wage employees to pay higher salaries will just take it off their bottom line?

They will pass it on to the consumer ... who will stop purchasing their product thus forcing them out of business. Thus is Marxism ....


Yes .... you and your Marxist friends are knowingly or not supporting Marxism! You can claim that you do not .... but, read the news ... it damn sure is happening!


I understand this. Your programming and brainwashing has been 50 years + in the making.

There is no saving America. The communist take over, one half century later will be successful .... thanks to the useful idiots!


poor wall mart and McDonalds...just can't pay there workers a living wage, while they make Billions...
You do know that these companies are the reason why the federal goverment ends up paying out tons of money to these workers just so they can have a home and maybe some health care...

Low wages for these companies are nothing but corperate welfare.
 
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Here's one for you Lag ....

Listen to conservative talk radio. That's right, Rush, Sean, Mark Levin, etc ...

It may not fix this disorder, however, if you have some actual real rebuttals to what they are saying at least you will sound like the most informed liberal around .... ;)

mindless trolls thats why the republican party is ding..you listen to mindless trolls who say stupid fucking shit to make huge profits...Rather then smart thinkers who happen to be conservative...you guys like entertainers, not people who actually base things in fact.
 
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