Tax the Rich!

I agree. HOwever, we seem to differ on what would allow the economy to grow again (more significantly that it is now doing), and thus to provide more revenues:

The GOP believe that giving more money to the wealthy, so they can create jobs would get the economy back on track.

The Democrats believe that, it is the "little people" who create the demand, when they do have the money to purchase products, and that that demand is what will trigger the hiring of more people to increase the production.

Once again, it is the difference between the "trickle down" economy (or supply side economy) and the "demand side" economy.

I agree.

If you can show me why people who have NO money would suddenly begin purchasing more goods, just because more good is being produced. . .I may consider changing my mind!


People get money from working..if there are no jobs for them to take, then they will not have an income, and therefore cannot go buy things.

However, if a warehouse is full of product that is unsold, why would ANYONE hire more people to increase the inventory that remains unsold by lack of demand?

They wouldn't. But ultimately such inventory will sell, and new inventory will need to be made...plus simply because there is a slow down in one area doesn't mean there is in all areas.
 
Werbung:
I agree.




People get money from working..if there are no jobs for them to take, then they will not have an income, and therefore cannot go buy things.



They wouldn't. But ultimately such inventory will sell, and new inventory will need to be made...plus simply because there is a slow down in one area doesn't mean there is in all areas.


Unfortunately, it seems that the "slow down" is now covering all areas!

And, obviously if people have no money they won't buy. . .that's why unemployment benefits are one of the BEST way to stimulate a slow economy. . .the velocity of money from unemployment (and even welfare checks in a slow economy)is much larger than that of tax cuts for the wealthy, because it is SPENT immediately on Main street, instead of being "invested" on Wall Street!

Also, people who don't have money will not be able to buy "extras," however, there are products that are NECESSITIES (food, electricity, gas, rent, etc. . . ) and those will continue to be in demand (even if the demand is lower for "premium" items).

If big business was going to hire people even if the demand is not there. . .why haven't they done so? It is obvious that many big corporations are sitting on billions. . .just waiting for. . .???

In my opinion. . .waiting to hire until they can't wait any longer. . .or until the Republicans are in the White House because of "the high unemployment!"

Yes, I do believe that a majority of big businesses is in bed with the GOP and most specifically those who clearly stated that their priority was to see "Obama fail!" They rejoice any time the unemployment stagnates, and they "play it down" when there is a positive economic news!

Believe it or not (and I know your convictions, but I do not believe that you would approve of this kind of tactic), I believe that there are enough "high power" people (like the Koch brothers) who are determined to make Obama fail to take back the government through a "staw man" (or woman!), that they are willing to risk destroying this country!

Let's face it. . .what do they have to lose (except for their integrity, of course, but that is so far gone that they probably don't grieve over it anymore anyway!)?

If this country falls to a second world country. . .it will just be cheaper for them to buy even more of it!
 
Higher taxes will not solve the problem. The problem is too much government spending. Unless spending is curbed, increasing taxes will have little effect and could have a very negative effect resulting in higher deficits and increasing debt levels.
I and many more think we need both curbed spending and increased taxes.
If your poll is correct, it is meaningless other than to prove a high percentage of Dems are fools. This nation is a representative republic. Our reps should do the right thing rather than what the majority wants.
The poll came from an editorial column written byDavid Colburn. He did not say where the data came from.
Many liberals wonder why big business is not investing since they are flush with cash. The reasons include they fear Big Ears and tax increases. Along with the huge increase in regulations and the onerous impact of Obamacare, it is not difficult to see why big and small businesses are hoarding cash.

A tax increase imposed on the wealthy who already pay nearly all the income taxes could push this economy into another Great Recession.
I agree we are spending too much. I agree regulations need to be rethought. I disagree with you about taxes. You and I cannot prove what the best solution is. We need to try something different.
 
I don't assume you are saying something stupid, I do not think you are stupid.

All of that said, if lack of enforcement is the problem, what good are new regulations going to do? Why don't we just enforce what is already there?
I'm all for better regulations and better enforcement. We probably disagree about the definition of better regulations though.

Of course the majority of people will want it...it is because they are being told the problem can be solved, and they won't have to pay an additional dime.

I would wonder what percent of those polled would actually see a tax increase?
Obama's original proposal was lower taxes for those making less than $250,000 after deductions. Higher taxes above that. I don't know what is being discussed now. I think that is well above the 90 percentile of earnings.
 
Unfortunately, it seems that the "slow down" is now covering all areas!

And, obviously if people have no money they won't buy. . .that's why unemployment benefits are one of the BEST way to stimulate a slow economy. . .the velocity of money from unemployment (and even welfare checks in a slow economy)is much larger than that of tax cuts for the wealthy, because it is SPENT immediately on Main street, instead of being "invested" on Wall Street!

I don't have a problem with unemployment benefits...until they start lasting for 2 years plus, then it just becomes absurd.

Also, people who don't have money will not be able to buy "extras," however, there are products that are NECESSITIES (food, electricity, gas, rent, etc. . . ) and those will continue to be in demand (even if the demand is lower for "premium" items).

If big business was going to hire people even if the demand is not there. . .why haven't they done so? It is obvious that many big corporations are sitting on billions. . .just waiting for. . .???

In my opinion. . .waiting to hire until they can't wait any longer. . .or until the Republicans are in the White House because of "the high unemployment!"

Steve Wynn, billionaire CEO (and Democrat) weighed in on that very issue just the other day.

Well, here's our problem. There are a host of opportunities for expansion in Las Vegas, a host of opportunities to create tens of thousands of jobs in Las Vegas. I know that I could do 10,000 more myself and according to the Chamber of Commerce and the Visitors Convention Bureau, if we hired 10,000 employees, it would create another 20,000 additional jobs for a grand total of 30,000. I believe in Las Vegas. I think its best days are ahead of it. But I'm afraid to do anything in the current political environment in the United States. You watch television and see what's going on, on this debt ceiling issue. And what I consider to be a total lack of leadership from the President and nothing's going to get fixed until the President himself steps up and wrangles both parties in Congress. But everybody is so political, so focused on holding their job for the next year that the discussion in Washington is nauseating. And I'm saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems -- that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration. And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America. You bet. And until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it's not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President. And a lot of people don't want to say that. They'll say, "Oh God, don't be attacking Obama." Well, this is Obama's deal, and it's Obama that's responsible for this fear in America. The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution, and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don't invest or holding too much money. We haven't heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody's afraid of the government, and there's no need to soft peddling it, it's the truth. It is the truth. And that's true of Democratic businessman and Republican businessman, and I am a Democratic businessman and I support Harry Reid. I support Democrats and Republicans. And I'm telling you that the business community in this company is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he's gone, everybody's going to be sitting on their thumbs.

Yes, I do believe that a majority of big businesses is in bed with the GOP and most specifically those who clearly stated that their priority was to see "Obama fail!" They rejoice any time the unemployment stagnates, and they "play it down" when there is a positive economic news!

I don't think many business take joy in a bad economy.

Believe it or not (and I know your convictions, but I do not believe that you would approve of this kind of tactic), I believe that there are enough "high power" people (like the Koch brothers) who are determined to make Obama fail to take back the government through a "staw man" (or woman!), that they are willing to risk destroying this country!

I believe there are some people like that, but I do not believe that equates the the majority of big business.

Let's face it. . .what do they have to lose (except for their integrity, of course, but that is so far gone that they probably don't grieve over it anymore anyway!)?

If this country falls to a second world country. . .it will just be cheaper for them to buy even more of it!

So, you think the "rich" are conspiring to turn America into a second world country, so they can buy more of it?
 
I don't have a problem with unemployment benefits...until they start lasting for 2 years plus, then it just becomes absurd.



Steve Wynn, billionaire CEO (and Democrat) weighed in on that very issue just the other day.

Well, here's our problem. There are a host of opportunities for expansion in Las Vegas, a host of opportunities to create tens of thousands of jobs in Las Vegas. I know that I could do 10,000 more myself and according to the Chamber of Commerce and the Visitors Convention Bureau, if we hired 10,000 employees, it would create another 20,000 additional jobs for a grand total of 30,000. I believe in Las Vegas. I think its best days are ahead of it. But I'm afraid to do anything in the current political environment in the United States. You watch television and see what's going on, on this debt ceiling issue. And what I consider to be a total lack of leadership from the President and nothing's going to get fixed until the President himself steps up and wrangles both parties in Congress. But everybody is so political, so focused on holding their job for the next year that the discussion in Washington is nauseating. And I'm saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems -- that keeps using that word redistribution. Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration. And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America. You bet. And until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it's not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President. And a lot of people don't want to say that. They'll say, "Oh God, don't be attacking Obama." Well, this is Obama's deal, and it's Obama that's responsible for this fear in America. The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution, and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don't invest or holding too much money. We haven't heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody's afraid of the government, and there's no need to soft peddling it, it's the truth. It is the truth. And that's true of Democratic businessman and Republican businessman, and I am a Democratic businessman and I support Harry Reid. I support Democrats and Republicans. And I'm telling you that the business community in this company is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he's gone, everybody's going to be sitting on their thumbs.



I don't think many business take joy in a bad economy.



I believe there are some people like that, but I do not believe that equates the the majority of big business.



So, you think the "rich" are conspiring to turn America into a second world country, so they can buy more of it?


Not "the rich." A few "obscenely rich" people (like the Koch brothers and the defense industry moguls).

And, I know the political climate is scary!. . .But I disagree that it is President Obama's fault. I believe that (as your CEO says) the MEDIA (especially Fox News) has been fear mongering every since Obama was elected. . .and it worked!

I also wish Obama was more definite on his standing, and less compromising. . .but, having read his book (Audacity of Hope) twice, it made it perfectly clear that he was a pragmatist, and that he always prefer to build conscensus than to force his believes on others.

The problem is that the GOP doesn't want compromise, doesn't want conscensus! Further to the center (and even to the Right) Obama moves, more openings he makes to the GOP, and more extreme the GOP gets.

So. ..If i have anything to "beat up" Obama with it would be to just cut his losses with the GOP and move much further to his base, to the Left! The hell with people who don't want to compromise. . . .If half an apple is not good enough for the GOP, if 3/4 of an apple is not good enough, then take the whole apple and let them starve!

I'm sorry he compromised on extending the Bush tax cuts last year, even if he did it for the middle class and the unemployed. . .I think he should have let ALL the tax cut expired.

There is a time when a "parent" needs to be the parent, and stop being his kid's friend!

Obama will probably lose the reelection (at least if the GOP comes up with a half decent alternative!. .which is still unclear!), so he might just as well go with gusto and SCREW those who have made it their priority to make him fail!

There is NO WAY McCain/Palin would have done half as well as Obama has, and they wouldn't have taken so much "organic fertilizer!"
 
Not "the rich." A few "obscenely rich" people (like the Koch brothers and the defense industry moguls).

The defense industry moguls? What have they done to indicate to you they want to see the demise of the country?

And, I know the political climate is scary!. . .But I disagree that it is President Obama's fault. I believe that (as your CEO says) the MEDIA (especially Fox News) has been fear mongering every since Obama was elected. . .and it worked!

I didn't see in his statement that he blamed the media for anything...I think most business leaders see the typical political rhetoric for what it is...but Wynn sounds legitimately concerned about concrete issues such as rising healthcare costs, burdensome regulations, and the continued "redistribution" rhetoric...which makes it sounds like more than just rhetoric.

I also wish Obama was more definite on his standing, and less compromising. . .but, having read his book (Audacity of Hope) twice, it made it perfectly clear that he was a pragmatist, and that he always prefer to build conscensus than to force his believes on others.

I don't see how he expects to build consensus when he attempts to hold himself above the fray in debate after debate....like healthcare, spending etc etc. You can't build a consensus if you don't get involved.

The problem is that the GOP doesn't want compromise, doesn't want conscensus! Further to the center (and even to the Right) Obama moves, more openings he makes to the GOP, and more extreme the GOP gets.

So. ..If i have anything to "beat up" Obama with it would be to just cut his losses with the GOP and move much further to his base, to the Left! The hell with people who don't want to compromise. . . .If half an apple is not good enough for the GOP, if 3/4 of an apple is not good enough, then take the whole apple and let them starve!

The far left doesn't want compromise either...if he is going to write off those who want no compromise, then he needs to stay in the middle.

I'm sorry he compromised on extending the Bush tax cuts last year, even if he did it for the middle class and the unemployed. . .I think he should have let ALL the tax cut expired.

I think he accepted that those cuts were really very beneficial for the poor and middle class (something they wouldn't admit in the campaign), and that is why he extended it.

There is a time when a "parent" needs to be the parent, and stop being his kid's friend!

This is a good WSJ article on the issue.

"Here Ms. Rubin puts her finger on something that maddens those of us who favor lower taxes and modest spending: the inherent bias in the way Washington debates are presented to the American people. This bias is not so much shilling for a particular position as it is a general disposition to accept the Democratic Party context in which tax and spending issues are debated and resolved.

In this case of the debt-ceiling talks, that context is pretty clear. At its core, it runs like this. First, "keep taxes low" may work as a campaign slogan with the unlettered masses, but it is incompatible with the responsibilities of running a government. Second, when government spends more than it takes in, the answer must consequently be to raise taxes. Conclusion: The politician who prefers to cut spending rather than raise taxes is either irresponsible or a tool of the rich—or some combination of both.

.......They are not the first to be handicapped in a budget fight. Remember the deficit talks in 1990 between then-President George H.W. Bush and the Democrats who controlled both houses of Congress. Mr. Bush had memorably pledged, "Read my lips: No new taxes." Alas, when the deficit numbers started coming in larger than expected, he abandoned his pledge. He ended up raising taxes as part of a deal that took away his credibility without (as we can see) doing anything real to put Washington on a better path toward living within its means.

Then as now, Democrats entered the talks with one goal in mind: Force their Republican opponents to discredit themselves politically by abandoning their tax pledge. Then as now, Democrats were abetted by a press corps that embraced the same context for the debate—i.e., the idea that raising taxes was the "responsible" thing to do."

The idea of the "adult in the room" is entirely bogus in my view.

Obama will probably lose the reelection (at least if the GOP comes up with a half decent alternative!. .which is still unclear!), so he might just as well go with gusto and SCREW those who have made it their priority to make him fail!

There is NO WAY McCain/Palin would have done half as well as Obama has, and they wouldn't have taken so much "organic fertilizer!"

I am not so sure he will lose. From a campaign perspective, his campaign was amazing, and even though Republicans have some momentum right now, that can change overnight.
 
Can you please prove returning to Reagan's tax rates would solve this problem instantly?
You obviously know that nobody can prove anything involving the macroeconomics of the current clime. Using the terminology of creationists, trickle-down is only a theory.

Trickle-down theory has been discredited among economists. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics. For a balanced view I often go to wikipedia because political issues are pushed left and right by the left and right until they achieve a middle ground. From wikipedia:
...David Stockman, who as Reagan's budget director championed these cuts at first but then became skeptical of them...
This is a remarkable turn-around.
 
You obviously know that nobody can prove anything involving the macroeconomics of the current clime. Using the terminology of creationists, trickle-down is only a theory.

Trickle-down theory has been discredited among economists. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics. For a balanced view I often go to wikipedia because political issues are pushed left and right by the left and right until they achieve a middle ground. From wikipedia:
This is a remarkable turn-around.

I am sure what your point is. My post was in response to another's post (see post #230). That poster made the absurd statement that returning to Reagan's tax rates would fix everything.

I guess his point was raising tax rates will solve our problems, when this could not be further from the truth. What many people never consider is what individuals do when their taxes are raised. The wealthy have options open to them to avoid taxes which they do with regularity. They will change their behavior to avoid taxes often resulting in economic hardships for the middle class who hold jobs dependent on spending by the wealthy

A good example of this is the elitist fool John Kerry...who served in Vietnam and lied about it. When MA raised taxes on yachts, what do scummy John do? He merely moved his yacht to RI and effectively avoided the tax. Yet, this hypocrite lobbies for higher taxes all the time.
 
I am sure what your point is. My post was in response to another's post (see post #230). That poster made the absurd statement that returning to Reagan's tax rates would fix everything.
You are right. Nothing can be done instantly. Even if "instantly" means within a year or two.
I guess his point was raising tax rates will solve our problems, when this could not be further from the truth. What many people never consider is what individuals do when their taxes are raised. The wealthy have options open to them to avoid taxes which they do with regularity. They will change their behavior to avoid taxes often resulting in economic hardships for the middle class who hold jobs dependent on spending by the wealthy
Right. In order for tax increases to work, tax laws must be made simpler and loop holes must be filled. I have always advocated higher taxes and less spending. Less spending is fraught with compromise because of left and right disagreement between where spending cuts should be made.
A good example of this is the elitist fool John Kerry...who served in Vietnam and lied about it. When MA raised taxes on yachts, what do scummy John do? He merely moved his yacht to RI and effectively avoided the tax. Yet, this hypocrite lobbies for higher taxes all the time.
"elitist fool", "lied about it", "scummy", "hypocrite". My my, I get the sense that you disfavor Kerry. That example is certainly the favored exemplar of the day. I don't get too excited about it because the wealthy always take advantage of anything that will lower their personal taxes - repubs or dems. Like Warren Buffet, Kerry might be saying "please stop giving me the opportunity to take advantage of tax evasive tactics."
 
One of the most used justifications for not taxing the rich at a higher rate is that taxing them will keep them from creating jobs. However, it is never mentioned that the tax breaks should only go to those who do start new industry and thus make the lower tax rate contingent upon creating such jobs. Methinks that the rhetoric that they need the money to create jobs, is just that...rhetoric. However, I am willing to have my mind changed. (Now there will be much rehetoric that amounts to, taxing the rich is "stealing" what they have honestly worked for and earned)
 
One of the most used justifications for not taxing the rich at a higher rate is that taxing them will keep them from creating jobs. However, it is never mentioned that the tax breaks should only go to those who do start new industry and thus make the lower tax rate contingent upon creating such jobs. Methinks that the rhetoric that they need the money to create jobs, is just that...rhetoric. However, I am willing to have my mind changed. (Now there will be much rehetoric that amounts to, taxing the rich is "stealing" what they have honestly worked for and earned)

Bottom line is, due to the actions of the government (NAFTA, GATT, etc), and that of the wealthy in striving to accumulate even more wealth, there is a limited pool from which any group can now take anything. Certainly you cannot ask more of the poor, or the working poor, and the middle class is tapped out. How one can conceive of asking a person who has lost their job, their home, while one group has seen their wealth increase is beyond me.

Then we have the tax cut scenario. Tax cuts have been tried, and it has not solved anything. It has simply allowed the wealthiest to keep more. Even at the current rates no one can say the wealthy are paying the applicablke rate, not even them. And 60% of corporations pay no taxes as compared to 45% of the workers.

It really doesn't matter how much the wealthy are paying as a percentage of the budget. Jefferson believed that only the wealthy should be taxed to pay for the obligations of the government. Of course, the Founders believed in a lot of things that appear to be unacceptable to the current system like crushing the aristocracy of the banks, and the corporations.

Bottom line, if something is not done that will allow the majority of the people to improve their lives, and for small businesses to be able to grow, the country is doomed, and deservedly so. The wealth of any country should not be concentrated in the hands of a few. That was not what the Founders sought, and it should not be the goal now. We do see it in Saudi Arabia, etc. though.
 
One of the most used justifications for not taxing the rich at a higher rate is that taxing them will keep them from creating jobs. However, it is never mentioned that the tax breaks should only go to those who do start new industry and thus make the lower tax rate contingent upon creating such jobs. Methinks that the rhetoric that they need the money to create jobs, is just that...rhetoric. However, I am willing to have my mind changed. (Now there will be much rehetoric that amounts to, taxing the rich is "stealing" what they have honestly worked for and earned)
Those that start new businesses will be taxed on what they make after deductions. A new business usually has a low or negative net income because start up expenses overshadow the revenue.

Obama should have told Joe the plumber not to worry because if he were netting significantly more than $250,000 he could hire more plumbers and create even more jobs and remain in a lower tax bracket. If he wants to keep that quarter of a million and buy a yacht, then he should understand that taxes will start to rise for him.

But Obama instead hit a right wing hot button and said "spread the wealth." That became a rallying cry for the don't-steal-our-money rich.
 
One of the most used justifications for not taxing the rich at a higher rate is that taxing them will keep them from creating jobs. However, it is never mentioned that the tax breaks should only go to those who do start new industry and thus make the lower tax rate contingent upon creating such jobs. Methinks that the rhetoric that they need the money to create jobs, is just that...rhetoric. However, I am willing to have my mind changed. (Now there will be much rehetoric that amounts to, taxing the rich is "stealing" what they have honestly worked for and earned)

Among the rich there are no doubt those that create jobs and those that don't. Giving each and everyone of them a tax break based on the idea that some of them will create jobs is favoritism and is not sound. But we should not place obstacles in the place of anyone who would create a job and staying out of the way of all people equally is not favoritism and is sound. By all means lets tax all people equally but lets not let any of our taxes be obstacles.
 
Werbung:
Back
Top