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Pope Says Gay Marriage Poses A Threat To 'Justice And Peace' In World Day Of Peace 2013 Address

Discussion in 'European Politics' started by steveox, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Hi mate I hope you are well :)
    I assume we are still on the topic of Aus and his question of gay marriage? Assuming that... then human rights are a relativily modern construct independent of any "religious" dogma. Human rights were conspicuous by their abscence up until the time of Kant getting rather dubious about the utlitarian position of western dogma and the landed elites who controlled economies. God is dependent upon your point of view i.e. race, creed etc.; human rights are an expression of "modern" aspirations based on Government taking over from the place of the Church as the moral compass. Kant was of the oppinion (in his era) that politics and the role of government (and those in government remember they were not "politicians" but landed gentry etc) “is only a legitimate government that guarantees our natural right to freedom, and from this freedom we derive other rights”. What rights? What rights is a government going to grant you and why?

    Taking the religious construct and human rights, where did these arise from? For example did the church's legitimisation of the Templars or the Hospitalliers advance the cause of "human Rights"? Hugh de Payne would have argued yes whilst Salah ad-Din would have said no. Human rights is a moving feast existing at the "by-your-leave" of the state look at Alan Turing and how the man who basically brought the 3rd Reich to defeat was hounded by the State to the point of suicide. What happened in the 50s in the UK would not happen now not becuase of any gift by a God.

    Without wittering on too much, Church and State have sepereted and as an EU resident you will appreciate that the moral compass of human rights is now enstrinred in EU law not the church. In the UK less than 3% of the population attend church thus I would argue that religion or God has nothing more to do with how the UK (or Europe for that matter) percieves or derives its "human rights". However, as I said earlier your faith and what you believe should trump that of Government so long as it is within the law. Therefore going back to Aus and his dilema being given the opportunity to determine his "moral compass" based on the choices he is being given should be based on his belief, not what he is expected to do by the "moral herd". If his faith determines that he does not want gays to be married then he, as a man of faith, should follow his heart just as I am sure you would probably vote yes. Both are a perfectly correct response to the question.
     
  2. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all that is included in your post (your own or a quote to be referenced?), and it still doesn't take me away from the belief that God's intent for mankind was NEVER what "religions" decided it was, but that God's intent was to give every human being the RIGHT to access all that is necessary to fulfil their life and that it is MEN's highjacking those rights through both governments and religions that has clouded the real purpose of life and human rights.

    Even a child (who knows no God and no government)knows what human rights truly are . .until, unfortunately, they get taught, through observations and dogmas (yes, even through their well meaning parents) that all humans are not equal and more specifically that some humans have more "rights" than others, simply because they do not meet the "dogmas" imposed by both religions and governments.

    As it relate to the OP in this thread, I believe that LOVE is not to be regulated either by religions or government. The feeling of love (I am not talking here about LUST, which is. . .although necessary for the survival of humanity, a lower instinct than the LOVE instinct, that can but must not necessarily, include lust.

    Therefore, LOVE cannot be controlled or uniquely based by a few inches of "skin" between once's legs and it certainly cannot be regulated by either religions or governments. To negate love, to declare one kind of love more or less worthy of God or society's approval is hypocritical and not in line with the basic human rights.
     
  3. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    oops sorry the quote “is only a legitimate government that guarantees our natural right to freedom, and from this freedom we derive other rights” is Kant's not me!!

    Have you read Lord of the Flies? an interesting quote...
    “Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy.” William Golding
    Whilst its only a novel it is a rather disturbing commentary on the savagery which underscores so called civilised humans and unfortunately one only has to look outside the door to realise that although only a parody on a school trip it is a very poignant reminder of what "human rights" have been endowed upon us by a God? What is it they say about civilisation and meals “There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy”Alfred Henry Lewis.

    I don't think it appropriate for me to get into any theological discussion regarding the church or its interpretation of what God intended for the world or its inhabitants. I don't have any Christian faith therefore all I can say is that if God created the world and didn't provide a user manual then one assumes His purpose was to leave its operation up to humans, thus He cannot be surprised that there is a plethora of interpretations and views on what or how we should act towards one another. Read Augustine's Confessions, they are a narrative of his thinking set in the form of Prayer - he was a very clever man a brilliant writer and philosopher IMHO one of the leading Christian thinkers ever, and even he was unable to accomodate the full depth and clarity of what is "Christian thinking" and what God intended for the world.
     
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  4. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    Yes, obviously I have read "Lord of the flies!" Hasn't anyone?
    But it hasn't convinced me that young children are not closer to the truth and to goodness than the average "religious" or "government" person!

    The book doesn't describes young children, untouched by society's and their parents' influence. And the instinct of "flee or fight" is imbedded in all of us. . .not from our "human" origines, but from our "animal" origines.

    I do not doubt that many "Christian" thinkers are worthy of being read and listened to. I have been raised in the Catholic Church, even spend 3 years in a nun's boarding school and 12 years in Catholic schools. I was, however, fortunate to have as my main teachers in that religions a couple of bright and forward thinking Jesuits. All religious people (in any religion) are not bad. All government people (in any party, in any country) are not bad. . .and the world is not "all good" (let's remember that we live "At EAST of EDEN. . ." but I still feel that human conscience, preferably with as little influence from either religion or government, is still the best guide to a decent, moral life and the key to "first do no harm!"
     
  5. citizen

    citizen Member

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    The pope doesn't know what he's talking about,more naive claptrap for the gullible to believe in.The Catholic church?Now that is unnatural,telling lots of young men to serve God by being celibate?We all know how that worked out.
     
  6. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    This thread is totally moot anyway, as the OP refers to ANOTHER Pope, and the current Pope has a totally different view. I have no idea why people continue to focus on this outdated OP!
     
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  7. citizen

    citizen Member

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    Thats
    That's ok none of the popes knew or know what they're talking about.
     
  8. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    This one does. First, he is a Jesuite. That is a totally different breed, with brain, logic, and forward thinking.
     
  9. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Same thinking re same sex marriage.
     
  10. citizen

    citizen Member

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    I don't think there's anything logical or forward thinking about any of the Abrahamic religions.
     
  11. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    Who is talking about any religion? The Pope is before anything a MAN, second, he is a JESUITE.

    Maybe you are not familiar with either? Some people can believe in God AND in humanity. Some people can respect a religion (in fact, all religions) while recognising that many of their dogmas are outdated and thriving to bring the understanding of God closer to reality.
     
  12. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    Human rights may be a "new concept" in terms of men's understanding , but they are in no way a "new concept" in terms of humanity!

    In fact, it is my believe that it is history, human history, and more specifically the grab for power that some humans seem to value above everything else, that has made up forget or rather, ignore basic human rights.

    And, I agree. . .everyone should be allowed to follow their own "compass" and "belief system," but with the knowledge that their belief system was probably seriously impacted by centuries of bigotry and was SERIOUSLY influenced by MEN!

    A child, prior to being told by his parents whom to fear and whom to hate, has the most REAL compass. And that child would NOT turn away from homosexuals, from people of color, from people of other faith, from poor people.

    I guess the big dilemma is to find our "PURE self," to question our conscience without the skewed learning of decades of "socialisation."
     
  13. citizen

    citizen Member

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    Like I said nothing logical or forward thinking.I think you'll find the pope is catholic,Roman Catholic ,.that is
     
  14. citizen

    citizen Member

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    The Roman Catholic church became a powerful influence on the world because the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.At last this evil bucket of shit is becoming less and less influential,amongst the educated and enlightened of the world.
     
  15. citizen

    citizen Member

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    Yes I'm familiar with man as in humanity,couldn't care less about Jesuits though a right bunch of troublemakers .I think you may enjoy the smell of your own shit a little too much.Lets see it was a Jesuit bastard who said give me a child till he's seven and I've got him for life.Think it was Francis Xaviier,can't be bothered to look it up,what a cunt anyway.It's because of this that we here once a catholic always a catholic.Which is a bunch of crap.The world is full of people that where born into that religion,but are no more.
     
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