Is the Vatican Above the Law?

[Here We Go]

Why is the Vatican empowered to handle child molesters internally instead of reporting them to the authorities? That in itself is a criminal offense. I am not against the Catholic religion but right is right and wrong is wrong. This is a travesty of major proportions to our society.

 

[The Scotsman]

I believe the Pope called his role in the case "petty gossip".......... yeah well he's a friggin kraut so he's had some practise in the art of understatement!

 

[kathaksung]

634. Pope and Roman Catholic under attack (5/5/2010)

Here are some excerpts from news articles of San Jose Mercury News in recent weeks.

"Sex abuse scandal taints Palm Sunday services

....Cardinal Sean Brady.... as a youthful priest 35 years ago, had two boys sign papers not to reveal scandal. "The inquiry had the effect of shielding and prolonging the career of a priest who was exposed 15 years later as the most notorious child-abuser in the history of Irish church. But the Vatican has been buffeted by recent disclosures of inaction as well."
(New York Times, 3/30/2010)

"AP: Abuse case delayed for years

Vatican waited 12 years to defrock Arizona priest" (A.P. 4/3/2010)

"Vatican defends pope, criticizes New York Times

... an article describing failed efforts by Wisconsin church officials to persuade the Vatican to defrock a priest who had abused as many as 200 deaf boys from 1950 to 1974. The pope, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was head of the Vatican’s doctrinal office when the case was referred there in 1996." (New York Times, 4/2/2010)

"Pope delayed defrocking

A former East Bay priest with a long record of sexually abusing children remained in the clergy for years while then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, bucked pleas from the from the Oakland Diocese to defrock him in the 1980s, according to an A.P. report citing church documents." (jsimerman@bayareanewsgroup.com , 4/10/2010)

"Pope's link to '90s Austrian abuse case under scrutiny" (New York Times, 4/27/2010)

"News of abusive priest hit Vatican year earlier

Rome was warned of molester in '95, not '96 as claimed" (A.P. 4/23/2010)

What do you learn from these news?

1. The cases mostly took place in '80s and '90s, some even were 50 years ago.

2. Most reports target at Benedict XVI when he was a Cardinal.

3. All these news appear in later March and April. It is exactly what Vatican called as a "campaign of attacks on the pope and the church.

What is the purpose of this propaganda campaign? Since this January, the Inside group works hard to frame a drug case and then to start the war on Iran. The war effort was especially active in April. As a leader of Catholic, Pope Benedict XVI is against war. Then we saw this campaign. It lowers the moral image of the Pope. Once the war starts, his anti-war voice would be weakened. How can Vatican criticize others when its own profile is tainted?

Media played important role in propaganda for the Iraq war. Now it beats the drum again for another war.

 

[kathaksung]

Here is what I wrote five years ago. The repeat extortion proved I am correct. Watch how Bush intimidate the Pope with sex scandal.

302. Pope's death (Continue to 261-265) (4/7/05)

Another two of great prophecy of Anthony Carr came into true. The death of Pope and a big earthquake. (Though the earthquake didn't take place in Italy, it took place in Indonesia and caused a tsunami.)

In World Journal, there were five pictures. Anthony Carr made many prophecies. But those five with pictures obviously were particularly picked up by intelligence to impress people. I think these were the most important projects of Inside Group. (The collapse of Eiffel Tower; earthquake in Rome; the death of Pope, Senator Edward Kennedy, and Prince of Monaco - Albert.

I found four out of five were related to Iraq war. Senator Edward Kennedy, Pope John Paul and France were three strong opposers to the Iraq war. An earthquake in Rome would also affected Vatican. Inside Group intended to create a situation that Vatican were punished by God with the suffering of natural disaster and death of Pope.
John Paul expressed his anti-war opinion as early as in 2001.

Re: Ex-envoy: Pope was champion of peace
Eric Gorski Denver Post Staff Writer

Coloradan Jim Nicholson met with Pope John Paul II on Sept. 13, 2001, at Castel Gandolfo, the pontiff's summer palace outside Rome. During that summit, the pope decried the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks as an attack not just on the United States but on humanity, Nicholson recalled.
But John Paul II vociferously opposed a U.S. strike on Iraq, sending an emissary to Washington in the run-up to the war in a failed attempt to sway President Bush.

<http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2797231,00.html>

Since then, Roman Catholic had a three years long intensify trouble in US. Many sex scandals were revealed. Roman Catholic were humiliated. Priests were sentenced and fined. When I read such kind of news one after another, I realize it was a revenge and blackmail. Those sex scandal cases were mostly happened decades ago. Now all of a sudden, they were poured out like a big wave. But Pope didn't bent. He insisted his opinion.

Pope to Bush: Go into Iraq and you go without God
By CHB Staff and Wire Reports
Mar 5, 2003, 07:18

Pope John Paul II has a strong message for President George W. Bush: God is not on your side if you invade Iraq.

Laghi came bearing the pope's message: A war would be a "defeat for humanity" and would be neither morally nor legally justified.
The Pope also questioned the President's statements invoking God's name as justification for the invasion.
"God is a neutral observer in the affairs of man," the Pope said. "Man cannot march into war and assume God will be at his side."
"It's illegal, it's unjust," Laghi told reporters after the session with Bush.

In a May visit to the Vatican, Bush told the pope he was "concerned" about the Catholic church's standing in America, where the church has been rocked by sex-abuse scandal.

<http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=15&num=1883>

You can see how Bush extorted Pope with sex scandal.

So when the newspaper reported the Anthony Carr's prophecy, I knew it was the project of inside group. They think they are the real God and punish people who do not obey to them.
There was trace that Pope was poisoned and suffered EM wave shooting in his final days. My condolence to John Paul. He is the victim of Inside group.

 

[numinus]

Why is the Vatican empowered to handle child molesters internally instead of reporting them to the authorities? That in itself is a criminal offense. I am not against the Catholic religion but right is right and wrong is wrong. This is a travesty of major proportions to our society.

Because the vatican is, in itself, an independent state.

 

[dahermit]

Because the vatican is, in itself, an independent state.

Only in regard to what it does within its boundaries in Italy.
For instance, if a priest in the U.S. buggers an alter boy, he, nor his superior who reassigns him to another parish instead of informing the authorities have any right to be excused from legal prosecution. Unless of course you are saying that they have "diplomatic immunity"?

 

[numinus]

Only in regard to what it does within its boundaries in Italy.
For instance, if a priest in the U.S. buggers an alter boy, he, nor his superior who reassigns him to another parish instead of informing the authorities have any right to be excused from legal prosecution. Unless of course you are saying that they have "diplomatic immunity"?

No. I am saying the vatican is empowered to handle child molestation cases simply because it is a separate and independent state with its own set of constitution, legal apparatus and evidentiary procedure.

Whatever criminal liability a priest may have in another country is SEPARATE from his liability from the catholic church.

 

[dahermit]

No. I am saying the vatican is empowered to handle child molestation cases simply because it is a separate and independent state with its own set of constitution, legal apparatus and evidentiary procedure.

Whatever criminal liability a priest may have in another country is SEPARATE from his liability from the catholic church.

There is no empowerment of the Catholic Church to ignore the legal responsibility of crimes committed by priests in the jurisdiction of other states. That is the problem. The criminal Catholic Church insists that child molestation is not a crime, but rather a "sin". And they have historically ignored the crimes and the victims of those crimes in order not to show the Church in a negative light. The Catholic Church has participated in a conspiracy to hide crimes. Therefore, the Catholic Church is a criminal organization.

 

[numinus]

There is no empowerment of the Catholic Church to ignore the legal responsibility of crimes committed by priests in the jurisdiction of other states.

Now its the catholic church?????

I am a part of the catholic church. What legal responsibility do I have for crimes committed by priests in the jurisdiction of other states, eh?

That is the problem. The criminal Catholic Church insists that child molestation is not a crime, but rather a "sin".

Nonsense. Your logical faculties are going ape-**** on this one. You might want to confine your statements to facts you can actually prove in a court of law.

Duh?

And they have historically ignored the crimes and the victims of those crimes in order not to show the Church in a negative light.

You are still speaking of the catholic church or just the vatican, hmmm?

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person

person n. 1) a human being. 2) a corporation treated as having the rights and obligations of a person. Counties and cities can be treated as a person in the same manner as a corporation. However, corporations, counties and cities cannot have the emotions of humans such as malice, and therefore are not liable for punitive damages.

Not to mention the fact that the vatican is an independent state. Whose criminal law and legal procedure are you going to use to indict an independent state, hmmmm?

Duh?

The Catholic Church has participated in a conspiracy to hide crimes. Therefore, the Catholic Church is a criminal organization.

What part of due process can't you understand, hmmmm?

 

[The Scotsman]

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that any number of Catholic Priests around the world have been caught ripping open the arseholes of young boys only to have the Church trying to hide these crimes. Wouldn't it have been better to have taken the matter to the police and taken the resultant bad publicity on the chin.

Shows poor judgement and screwed-up morals.

There used to be a time when young boys wanted to enter the priesthood now its the other way round......................

 

[numinus]

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that any number of Catholic Priests around the world have been caught ripping open the arseholes of young boys only to have the Church trying to hide these crimes. Wouldn't it have been better to have taken the matter to the police and taken the resultant bad publicity on the chin.

Shows poor judgement and screwed-up morals.

There used to be a time when young boys wanted to enter the priesthood now its the other way round......................

How many did you say the acusations against catholic priests were?

And of these cases, how many are indicted -- that is, an accusation supported by prima facie evidence proveable in a court of law?

And of these cases, how many were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

Tell me, how in heavens name is the vatican supposed to circumvent due process of law in another independent state? Economic embargo? Withdrawal of political support? Threat of war, perhaps?

The FACT of the matter is, the catholic church is a church of OVER ONE BILLION MEMBERS. If a priest, any of the vatican heirarchy, or the pope himself, is accused of a crime, then by all means, prosecute the sucker to the full extent of the law. Nail his balls to the wall if found guilty. Make him eat them if they fall off.

WHAT YOU CANNOT DO IS IGNORE DUE PROCESS OF LAW. I know it sounds difficult for a bigoted mind to comprehend but the last time I checked -- A PERSON IS SUPPOSED TO BE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Duh?

 

[The Scotsman]

I know it sounds difficult for a bigoted mind to comprehend but the last time I checked --

.....think before you start calling me bigoted! If you wish to enter into a flame war with me then do so over the PM system not in open forum!

...........and by the way...... bigoted against whom? Child molesters? You're damed f**cking right I am and I couldn't give a s**t where they come from or what colour of eclesiastical cloth they hide behind as they slide up childrens behinds.

The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse has spent nine years looking into allegations from thousands of former pupils of state schools and orphanages, some which date back more than 60 years.

The commission was founded in 2000 following a documentary for Irish television which claimed there was widespread sexual, physical and emotional abuse within Catholic institutions. Mary Raffety, who produced the programme said the abuse suffered was 'way off the scale' and 'designed to break children.' At Easter, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said the report would "shock us all".

"It is likely that thousands of children or young people across Ireland were abused by priests in the period under investigation and the horror of that abuse was not recognised for what it is," he said during his Holy Thursday homily.

Due proccess complete........liability admitted end of story!?

In 2003 the Irish Government offered compensation to victims of institutionalised child abuse in a move expected to cost £725 million. The Comptroller and Auditor General said the estimated bill was based on just 10,000 of the 150,000 victims coming forward. If all survivors claimed, the Republic could face a bill about £10.8 billion.

A Catholic order has since said it would supply a 161m euros (£145m) package of measures as reparation for the abuse.

Ah.......unfortunately not because those bastards will probably never be brought to trial......

In all, 450 other people in the Dublin diocese claim they were abused as children. One hundred and fifty two priests stand accused.

A fraction have been prosecuted.

And what makes this so tragic is that the Church knew all along that this was happening and acted as a quasi-state based upon the deference and esteem that the Irish people had for the Catholic Church, they knew that they could manipulate the Irish Government and its state organs in order to conceal the extent of abuse.......

The report investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests. It found that the Church placed its own reputation above the protection of children in its care.

It also said that state authorities facilitated the cover-up by allowing the Church to operate outside the law.

Civic authorities in Ireland, especially the police, were also criticised for their cosy relationship with the Church. The report states that senior members of the force regarded priests as being outside their remit and it claims some police officers reported abuse complaints to Church authorities instead of carrying out their own investigation.

And against all this the Vatican contended that it knew nothing.........

Well Numinus unfortunately I find it difficult to accept the gift of faith which you undoubtly have. Its the gift of faith in God and the reverence of those with faith in God that have been the source of this misery brought upon God's children. Children; those very same children that the Bible and those of faith hold so dear abused by those who where supposed to protect them.

 

[dahermit]

Tell me, how in heavens name is the vatican supposed to circumvent due process of law in another independent state? Economic embargo? Withdrawal of political support? Threat of war, perhaps?

When the priests confess to their superiors that they have "sinned", evidently instead of being kicked out of the church, and the authorities informed (as required by law), they are reassigned so that they can continue to "minister" to little boys.

 

[numinus]

.....think before you start calling me bigoted! If you wish to enter into a flame war with me then do so over the PM system not in open forum!

LOL. Flame war? With you? You might want to check my post again to see if I actually called you bigoted.

...........and by the way...... bigoted against whom? Child molesters? You're damed f**cking right I am and I couldn't give a s**t where they come from or what colour of eclesiastical cloth they hide behind as they slide up childrens behinds.

Bigoted against the catholic church, obviously.

Due proccess complete........liability admitted end of story!?

You can cite all the commission report you want but until such allegations are PROVEN IN A COURT OF LAW, it doesn't mean s_h_i_t, now, does it?

What part of due process don't you understand, hmmm?

Ah.......unfortunately not because those bastards will probably never be brought to trial......

Which begs the question -- why the hell not?

Unless your commission unearthed a mountain of evidence all of which is inadmissible in a court of law, now, isn't it? What the hell is your commission for if not to establish FACTS PROVEABLE IN A COURT OF LAW, hmmmm?

And what makes this so tragic is that the Church knew all along that this was happening and acted as a quasi-state based upon the deference and esteem that the Irish people had for the Catholic Church, they knew that they could manipulate the Irish Government and its state organs in order to conceal the extent of abuse.......

Or, they merely acted in accordance with due process -- wait for a grand jury (or inquest, whatever is the case in ireland) and presumed the priest was innocent until proven guilty.

Why would you suppose this rule is applicable to everyone except priests, hmmmm?

And against all this the Vatican contended that it knew nothing.........

Well Numinus unfortunately I find it difficult to accept the gift of faith which you undoubtly have. Its the gift of faith in God and the reverence of those with faith in God that have been the source of this misery brough upon God's children. Children; those that the Bible and those of faith hold so dear abused by those who where supposed to protect them.

Let me point out that your point of view vacillates from one to another like a prostitute on a busy night.

You alternate between individual priest to the catholic church to the vatican authorities and back again. It makes no sense, when you think about it.

I repeat -- PROSECUTE THE INDIVIDUALS RESPONSIBLE, AND THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ATTEMPTED TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE.

Just don't let your opinion meander to the point of absurdity -- like your 'the church is trying to hide these crimes' nonsense.

 

[numinus]

When the priests confess to their superiors that they have "sinned", evidently instead of being kicked out of the church, and the authorities informed (as required by law), they are reassigned so that they can continue to "minister" to little boys.

It depends. Was it confessed within the sanctity of the confessional?

Obviously, his superior cannot violate that.