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Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by Gnostic Christian Bishop, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Gnostic Christian Bishop Well-Known Member

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    Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?


    Many think that God has a plan for all of us sinners, a perfect plan actually, to get as many of us into heaven as possible. Even all of us, if God is as perfect as some say he is. No God worth the title would have it any other way.


    God's plan can never go off track or be fouled as that would show a weakness in God and his ability to plan perfectly.


    The above being irrefutable, if there is a God and a plan, indicates that this reality is the best that Yahweh can accomplish?


    It is interesting that scriptures say that to backslide is evil, while it ignores that if there is a plan in place, then the world is in it’s best possible form. Scriptures that show a backsliding God and world must be wrong.


    Thanks to God’s plan, we are living in perfection. To think otherwise would be seeing God get a fail on maintaining the initial perfection of creation.


    In the beginning, all was perfect. That perfection cannot be allowed to backslide if there is a God.



    Do you see God as a backslider or a God whose plan is running along in a perfect way?


    Sing the hymn with me of Adam’s sin. It says that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.


    Were we created to be sinners?


    Regards

    DL
     
  2. Jason76

    Jason76 Well-Known Member

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    Humans were given a free-will.
     
  3. Gnostic Christian Bishop

    Gnostic Christian Bishop Well-Known Member

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    Not by any god. By nature, yes.

    If we had a free will to not sin at any time, we would have some examples of these good people.

    Let me get longer here with an old O.P. that explains how evolution forces us to sin/do harm to others.

    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.

    That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

    Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

    If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

    Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

    Consider.

    First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.

    In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

    Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

    As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

    Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

    Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

    This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

    Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

    There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

    This link speak to theistic evolution.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...cept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

    If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

    Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.



    Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Regards
    DL
     
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