Health Care Reform

[Hobo1]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

I searched for the article I read about the 25% increase as a result of malpractice suites. Unfortunately, I was unable to find the specific article I was looking for. You can Google in "medical malpractice defensive practices" and find a wide array of articles on the subject.

The issue that catches the most attention is the use of repeated tests to protect against malpractice suits. This, I believe, is a generally accepted fact - most doctors will admit to practicing defensive medicine. I practiced defensive medicine today.

One of the often unrecognized issues is the constant introduction of new technology into the medical system. When first introduced, a new technique or machine may be considered above the normal standard of practice - so a doctor who does not use it is will not considered guilty of malpractice. However, over time, the use of this technique becomes more common and eventually not using it will become a case of malpractice.

FRB Chairman Ben Bernanke gave a great speech recently entitled Challenges for Health-Care Reform. He makes several very interesting points.

First he states that, "In recent decades, improvements in medical knowledge and standards of care have allowed people to live healthier, longer, and more productive lives. New medical technologies and treatments promise more and better to come. From a social point of view, we hope as many people as possible benefit from these advances." In other words, the higher cost of medical care does make people healthier.

He goes on to say that "Rapid increases in health spending also portend increasingly difficult access to health services for people with lower incomes. As health spending continues to outpace income, health insurance and out-of-pocket payments will become increasingly unaffordable. One way that society has addressed this problem in the past has been to expand government subsidies for health spending." This is a great point! Left uncontrolled, technology will improve our medical care to the point that most people can't afford it!

As long as bio-tech companies continue to introduce new methods and techniques, and medical malpractice suits force doctors to use these new techniques, our health care costs will continue to outpace societies ability to pay for it.

 

[top gun]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

I searched for the article I read about the 25% increase as a result of malpractice suites. Unfortunately, I was unable to find the specific article I was looking for. You can Google in "medical malpractice defensive practices" and find a wide array of articles on the subject.

The issue that catches the most attention is the use of repeated tests to protect against malpractice suits. This, I believe, is a generally accepted fact - most doctors will admit to practicing defensive medicine. I practiced defensive medicine today.

One of the often unrecognized issues is the constant introduction of new technology into the medical system. When first introduced, a new technique or machine may be considered above the normal standard of practice - so a doctor who does not use it is will not considered guilty of malpractice. However, over time, the use of this technique becomes more common and eventually not using it will become a case of malpractice.

FRB Chairman Ben Bernanke gave a great speech recently entitled Challenges for Health-Care Reform. He makes several very interesting points.

First he states that, "In recent decades, improvements in medical knowledge and standards of care have allowed people to live healthier, longer, and more productive lives. New medical technologies and treatments promise more and better to come. From a social point of view, we hope as many people as possible benefit from these advances." In other words, the higher cost of medical care does make people healthier.

He goes on to say that "Rapid increases in health spending also portend increasingly difficult access to health services for people with lower incomes. As health spending continues to outpace income, health insurance and out-of-pocket payments will become increasingly unaffordable. One way that society has addressed this problem in the past has been to expand government subsidies for health spending." This is a great point! Left uncontrolled, technology will improve our medical care to the point that most people can't afford it!

As long as bio-tech companies continue to introduce new methods and techniques, and medical malpractice suits force doctors to use these new techniques, our health care costs will continue to outpace societies ability to pay for it.

I think your overall premise is correct that malpractices case raise malpractice insurance rates (on the actual amount raised or on the question is it important that malpractice cases be allowed, we likely might not be in total agreement there).

I also agree with the "new technology" problem/scenario you have cited.

The bottom line is how best to address these problems.

We may not be in complete agreement on that as well but regardless...

good informative post!

 

[Andy]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

He goes on to say that "Rapid increases in health spending also portend increasingly difficult access to health services for people with lower incomes. As health spending continues to outpace income, health insurance and out-of-pocket payments will become increasingly unaffordable. One way that society has addressed this problem in the past has been to expand government subsidies for health spending." This is a great point! Left uncontrolled, technology will improve our medical care to the point that most people can't afford it!

As long as bio-tech companies continue to introduce new methods and techniques, and medical malpractice suits force doctors to use these new techniques, our health care costs will continue to outpace societies ability to pay for it.

Nearly everything goes through stages where it can only be affordable to the rich, and then slow becomes affordable to everyone else.

For example, years before there were 24/7 TV stations, TVs were horribly expensive, and very few could afford them. Only the wealthy had TV sets. But because the wealthy kept that market open, now a TV set is affordable to even the lower class. That situation has repeated over and over, just within the TV set market. From early mechanical, to electronic. From black and white, to color. From 5" to 34" and larger. From CRT to Plasma, and LCD, and now Ultrathin TV sets are on the way.

The same can be seen with Telephones, to car phones, and then Cell phones, and even video phones.

In short, it is a natural thing that new technologies and services start off being affordable for only the rich, and then filter down over time to the lower income classes.

X-rays used to be this way. Then CT scanners. Then MRI units, and so on.

But health care was never that way at the start!
Well this is true, but there's a reason. We had doctors, long before we had modern medicine. In 1941 Winston Churchill during a visit to the United States, suffered a heart attack. He was prescribed 6-weeks bed rest.

Logically there is no reason a lower-class poor person could not afford this "treatment" over a rich person. So yeah, everyone could afford health care at this time.

With modern medicine, advanced surgeries and treatments, and high tech diagnostic equipment, that is simply no longer the case.

Here's the rub
Every time you let government subsidize any industry, government will want to control that industry. Government doesn't have money to afford super expensive treatments and technology for patients, anymore than we have the money for them.

Thus, what ends up happening is government stifles advances in medicine. In France, pharmaceutical companies have left the country in droves. Why? The French government isn't willing to pay more for newer medications. It's too expensive. So the companies realized, why invest in new drugs when there's no benefit to doing so? If we can't earn more for making a newer better drug, why do it?

It's ironic really that France was the birth place of modern medication, and now is a country where one can't get any of the latest medications for nearly anything.

So I ask you this... do you want our government to stifle the health industry? Because that's exactly what will happen if they are allowed to control it.

 

[rushhannity]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Mexico is a leading problem, with the illegal criminal aliens hopping across our borders on a daily basis for a free handout. It is undermining the quality healthcare that the hard working americans pay soo much in taxes to have.

With the Obamanation plan we will be that much closer to becoming a socialist society, with total government control and much worse care.

 

[rushhannity]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Bottom Line: I think that most rational thinking Americans are sick and tired of working their ass of to pay hand outs to other people including a government that is supposed to work for the people and not visa versa. These fanatic liberals in office would rather take our hard earned money and fund reasearch to protect the Three Peckered Owl.
Get where I`m coming from. The squandering of money in Washington. No wonder
they are looking to rape us of health care.

If a person sits on his or her ass and is lazy in life, the person that has succeded an prospered in theirs does not owe them a damn thing. The Problem with the far left, is they believe everyone should be equal. Bull****.

 

[Pandora]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Bottom Line: I think that most rational thinking Americans are sick and tired of working their ass of to pay hand outs to other people including a government that is supposed to work for the people and not visa versa. These fanatic liberals in office would rather take our hard earned money and fund reasearch to protect the Three Peckered Owl.
Get where I`m coming from. The squandering of money in Washington. No wonder
they are looking to rape us of health care.

If a person sits on his or her ass and is lazy in life, the person that has succeded an prospered in theirs does not owe them a damn thing. The Problem with the far left, is they believe everyone should be equal. Bull****.

From each according to his ability to each according to his need

or something like that...

In short

Spread the wealth

as obama puts it

 

[Hobo1]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Nearly everything goes through stages where it can only be affordable to the rich, and then slow becomes affordable to everyone else.

For example, years before there were 24/7 TV stations, TVs were horribly expensive, and very few could afford them. Only the wealthy had TV sets. But because the wealthy kept that market open, now a TV set is affordable to even the lower class. That situation has repeated over and over, just within the TV set market. From early mechanical, to electronic. From black and white, to color. From 5" to 34" and larger. From CRT to Plasma, and LCD, and now Ultrathin TV sets are on the way.

The same can be seen with Telephones, to car phones, and then Cell phones, and even video phones.

In short, it is a natural thing that new technologies and services start off being affordable for only the rich, and then filter down over time to the lower income classes.

X-rays used to be this way. Then CT scanners. Then MRI units, and so on.

Here's the rub
Every time you let government subsidize any industry, government will want to control that industry. Government doesn't have money to afford super expensive treatments and technology for patients, anymore than we have the money for them.

Thus, what ends up happening is government stifles advances in medicine. In France, pharmaceutical companies have left the country in droves. Why? The French government isn't willing to pay more for newer medications. It's too expensive. So the companies realized, why invest in new drugs when there's no benefit to doing so? If we can't earn more for making a newer better drug, why do it?

It's ironic really that France was the birth place of modern medication, and now is a country where one can't get any of the latest medications for nearly anything.

So I ask you this... do you want our government to stifle the health industry? Because that's exactly what will happen if they are allowed to control it.

These are two good points. Technology does get cheaper over time - the problem with health care is that everyone is required to buy the most modern, most expensive stuff. Doctors are required to provide the current "standard of care" or they may be subject to malpractice law suites. I had a mole on my neck which made shaving difficult. I had it cut out in a doctor's office and he told me he had to send it to a lab to see if it was cancerous - $400. I told him I didn't want to pay for that and he said, "I have no choice; you have no choice."

Also, your point about government stiffing innovation is also correct. Government sponsored health care makes nobody happy. Half the population complain because treatment is inferior, the other half complain the cost is too high.

However, I don't think anybody denies that the current system needs improvement. Our capitalist system where competition holds down prices and offers choice clearly doesn't work. So there may be a role for the government to play similar to way it regulates against monopolies, price fixing, and other unfair business practices.

The current House Bill proposes a series of pilot programs that the government will sponsor. They are programs that seek to:

1. Improve health outcomes;
2. Reduce health disparities (including racial, ethnic, and other disparities);
3. Provide efficient and affordable care;
4. Address geographic variation in the provision of health services;
5. Prevent or manage chronic illness;
6. Promotes care that is integrated, patient-centered, quality, and efficient.
7. Encouraging the use of high value services

This is about the only thing I can see in the Health Care Bill that I like. Let's complete these pilot programs and THEN we can change the whole structure of who pays for what - if a shake-up is necessary.

Right now Obama is looking at a system that is broken, but no one has any real idea on how to fix it.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Our capitalist system where competition holds down prices and offers choice clearly doesn't work.

We're not using a Capitalist system. The system we're using prevents insurance companies from competing over state lines, prevents tort reform to limit the suits brought against those insuring and practicing healthcare and prevents a loser pays system of litigation.

There are many problems with the system we're using, but it's not the fault of Capitalism.

Right now Obama is looking at a system that is broken, but no one has any real idea on how to fix it.

If insurance companies and healthcare providers were free of the government regulations that prevent competition and unnecessarily raise costs, it would go a long way to improving costs and care. Tort reform would seal the deal and the results of enacting tort reform would be felt immediately.

Guess that makes me no one.

 

[Andy]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

These are two good points. Technology does get cheaper over time - the problem with health care is that everyone is required to buy the most modern, most expensive stuff. Doctors are required to provide the current "standard of care" or they may be subject to malpractice law suites. I had a mole on my neck which made shaving difficult. I had it cut out in a doctor's office and he told me he had to send it to a lab to see if it was cancerous - $400. I told him I didn't want to pay for that and he said, "I have no choice; you have no choice."

I respectfully don't believe you. I've had a much similar conversation, in which I refused to pay for a test I deemed I didn't need. I had a choice. It's called "don't buy it". You always have a choice. It's called "walking away".

Also, your point about government stiffing innovation is also correct. Government sponsored health care makes nobody happy. Half the population complain because treatment is inferior, the other half complain the cost is too high.

You seem to have missed my point. I'll clarify. The purpose of explaining to you how new technologies are introduced, and then become part of the mass market, was to explain that if you short circuit that system, it won't function.

Let us pretend that the government stepped in and said oh... TVs are too expensive. It costs too much and we don't want to price entertainment so high that the lower class can't afford it.

What would have happened? Well the rich would not have have purchased expensive TV sets. Since no one would be manufacturing TVs, no one would have invested money in reducing their cost. Why spend millions researching ways of making a TV set cheaper, when there is no market for it?

Similarly, if you have government withhold medical technology, it will never become cheaper, within economic reach of the lower class.

However, I don't think anybody denies that the current system needs improvement. Our capitalist system where competition holds down prices and offers choice clearly doesn't work. So there may be a role for the government to play similar to way it regulates against monopolies, price fixing, and other unfair business practices.

Universally speaking, monopolies can't exist in a true free-market capitalist system. Further, actions of government to prevent monopolies always result in higher prices. It did so with railroads, with oil, and every other anti-trust lawsuit I've researched.

Beyond that, Capitalism isn't a magic pill that reduces prices, it's simply a better way of doing things. Further, you are a bit nutz if you think Capitalism is the system in charge of health care. When government pays 50% and more of the entire countries health care costs, this is not capitalism. In fact, I would argue it's because of that 50% the government controls that has caused most of the problems.

The current House Bill proposes a series of pilot programs that the government will sponsor. They are programs that seek to:

1. Improve health outcomes;
2. Reduce health disparities (including racial, ethnic, and other disparities);
3. Provide efficient and affordable care;
4. Address geographic variation in the provision of health services;
5. Prevent or manage chronic illness;
6. Promotes care that is integrated, patient-centered, quality, and efficient.
7. Encouraging the use of high value services

This is about the only thing I can see in the Health Care Bill that I like. Let's complete these pilot programs and THEN we can change the whole structure of who pays for what - if a shake-up is necessary.

What the program claims to do, and what a program actually does are two very different things. The BS spewed from Washington is just that. Meaningless crap by politicians who blow money for votes, and leave before the system breaks.

When Socialist Security was created, they claimed it would cost no more than 1% of the first thousand dollars or so. Shockingly it now takes 14% of our income, and it's still going broke, and it decreases in benefits every year.

Maybe you have kinda missed the news lately, but we are running a $1.4 Trillion dollar deficit. Where do you think Obama is going to come up with that kind of money? Yet you want him to add a few expensive pilot programs? How is he going to pay for that, let alone the other $1.4 Trillion?

Do you understand that Obama could actually bankrupt the US government, so that you can have a few pilot programs? What happens when the rest of the world refuses the American dollar because our government is bankrupt? You think we're going to just flush the economy down the drain and be happy because all our unemployed people have free health care?

Right now Obama is looking at a system that is broken, but no one has any real idea on how to fix it.

Here's a thought. Let's try capitalism. It seems to have worked in China, India, Russia, and pretty much anywhere in the world where it's given a chance. I wager it will work well for health care too.

 

[Hobo1]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

I respectfully don't believe you. I've had a much similar conversation, in which I refused to pay for a test I deemed I didn't need. I had a choice. It's called "don't buy it". You always have a choice. It's called "walking away".

Yes, I have had outright battles with doctors over what I will and won't pay for, and I have won. But doctors have their malpractice insurance companies telling them what to do to keep premiums low - and that sets up a confrontational relationship with the patient.

You seem to have missed my point. I'll clarify. The purpose of explaining to you how new technologies are introduced, and then become part of the mass market, was to explain that if you short circuit that system, it won't function.

I understand and agree with your point. To use your example, I was just saying if the government stepped in to control the price of televisions, then half the population would be saying it takes too long to get a television - I must wait for months. And the other half of the population would be saying the TVs that are "price-fixed" by the government are junk because of government bureaucracy. Nobody (not the rich, not the poor) will like the Obama Health Care Plan because government is inherently inefficient.

Universally speaking, monopolies can't exist in a true free-market capitalist system. Further, actions of government to prevent monopolies always result in higher prices. It did so with railroads, with oil, and every other anti-trust lawsuit I've researched.

Beyond that, Capitalism isn't a magic pill that reduces prices, it's simply a better way of doing things. Further, you are a bit nutz if you think Capitalism is the system in charge of health care. When government pays 50% and more of the entire countries health care costs, this is not capitalism. In fact, I would argue it's because of that 50% the government controls that has caused most of the problems.

Capitalism is broad term with a lot of nuances. Surely, WalMart holds down prices but a lot of people complain about its business ethics, such as coming into a small town and putting all the small businesses out of business.

Capitalism is the over-arching system that controls our health care system. As you point out, capitalism must bend and twist itself to fit government intervention. In any capitalistic system, you need the government to be the gatekeeper. Without government as a gatekeeper, capitalism turns into laissez-faire. We have seen the results of a capitalistic system without proper government regulations in the past - where corporations can enslave the general population with their money and power.

In today's health care environment, the medical system cannot function as an efficient capitalistic system because government medical programs and regulations (such as malpractice) create a too restrictive environment. Capitalism needs room to innovate; and consumers must have the power to accept or reject those new innovations.

Maybe you have kinda missed the news lately, but we are running a $1.4 Trillion dollar deficit. Where do you think Obama is going to come up with that kind of money? Yet you want him to add a few expensive pilot programs? How is he going to pay for that, let alone the other $1.4 Trillion?

You missed my point. I said the so called pilot programs to improve health care delivery are the only good idea with this health care program. Like I said earlier, the health care industry needs room to innovate - not just with technology but with different options on how to deliver efficient health care.

These pilot programs would not bankrupt the government... but restructuring the entire health care system with a heavy tilt towards socialism would severely weaken our countries economic strength.

 

[Andy]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Capitalism is broad term with a lot of nuances. Surely, WalMart holds down prices but a lot of people complain about its business ethics, such as coming into a small town and putting all the small businesses out of business.

That's actually not a bad thing. The reason business go out of business, is because there's a better alternative and people choose it. Basically complaining that walmart puts another store out of business, is equal to complaining that Walmart charges less than another store.

Again, most monopoly anti-trust actions end up raising prices. That is what would happen if Walmart was broken up.

Without government as a gatekeeper, capitalism turns into laissez-faire. We have seen the results of a capitalistic system without proper government regulations in the past - where corporations can enslave the general population with their money and power.

Name one.

In today's health care environment, the medical system cannot function as an efficient capitalistic system because government medical programs and regulations (such as malpractice) create a too restrictive environment. Capitalism needs room to innovate; and consumers must have the power to accept or reject those new innovations.

This is real simple. First, expand HSAs. In fact, make them unlimited. This will make patients customers again, and they'll want to know the price for service. That will cause hospitals to post prices because customers want to know what they are paying.

Second, completely and utterly dissolve Medicare and Medicaid. Hospitals will no longer have to subsidize a government program by charging more to private customers. Prices will go down.

These pilot programs would not bankrupt the government... but restructuring the entire health care system with a heavy tilt towards socialism would severely weaken our countries economic strength.

No I think they will. If covering 12.4% of the population costs $60 Trillion, any program which expands medicare could bankrupt the system. I don't even see how we can afford to pay off the Stimulus crap he passed.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

That's actually not a bad thing. The reason business go out of business, is because there's a better alternative and people choose it.

Kinda like The Public Option driving Health-Care-Insurance RIP-OFFS OUTTA-BUSINESS.....right?

(...Or, is that different? )​

 

[Andy]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Kinda like The Public Option driving Health-Care-Insurance RIP-OFFS OUTTA-BUSINESS.....right?

(...Or, is that different? )​

Opinion and consumer choice are two very different things. I'm not surprised a leftist can't tell the difference.

Consumer choice is the fact the vast majority of Americans do have health insurance.

Opinion is a belief that may or may not have any backing in fact. Often it is subjective or emotional, and sometimes based on ignorance of facts. For example, the idea that we should have nationalized health care because everyone else does. This is obviously ignorant of the fact that nearly everyone else is moving away from government control health care, and more towards free market capitalist health care.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

Sounds like the speeches pointing out the failures of socialized health care are having an effect.

....Yet it's the health-care-industry that's looking, more-and-more, like they're what....Too Big To Fail??????



*

*​

"WellPoint didn't really want to jack up health premiums on its customers by as much as 39%, she said -- it had no choice. "We care deeply about our California customers," she said.

But what she was really telling the committee members was this: "Please put us out of our misery."

Braly's words are a reminder of the most important unasked question in the entire healthcare debate: What do we need health insurance companies for, anyway?

The only way insurers can remain profitable at all is by selling healthy people on policies that don't offer much coverage at all, while squeezing older, less healthy people remorselessly so they either pay for most of their care out of pocket or get priced out of the insurance market completely (thus becoming a burden for taxpayers)."

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Re: "conservatives"; Quit Your WHINING About Health-Care!

....Yet it's the health-care-industry that's looking, more-and-more, like they're what....Too Big To Fail??????​

​

Yep, she and her upper echelon of multi millionaire staff are crying all the way to the bank with their perks/benefits/salary/bonuses

And the conservatives don't seem to mind that their hard earned wages are the way & means for those grossly over paid executives to be awarded all of those wonderful perks/benefits/salary/bonuses...not to mention the paid seminars at all of those posh tropical locations so that they can learn how better to STICK IT TO THE POLICY OWNERS with whom they have such a warm fuzzy relationship...ROTFLMAO