Abortion and Morality

I still don't understand how you see any parallel between opposing killing innocent unborns and killing heinous rapists and murderers.


Either life is sacred or it isn't. In the end do we have the right to judge and take the life of another for any reason?

If human life is sacred for some reason - if there is a "right" to life - then all life is sacred or none of it is.

Then one has to look further. Is all life sacred to some degree? Not just human life? It should be shouldn't it?

Of course I don't have an answer yet to all the questions.
 
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Either life is sacred or it isn't. In the end do we have the right to judge and take the life of another for any reason?

I believe we do. Life is sacred until you do something that makes it not sacred. If you rape and kill a 7 year old girl, your life is less sacred than the innocent unborn.
 
No child should be denied it's chance to live.

No woman should be forced to bear a child against her will.

When those two rights clash, the woman's right to her body is stronger. The life within her has no sentience, no brain, no awareness of pain or what it is gaining or losing. She does.[/quote]

The fact that it hasn't developed that far is irrelavent to the fact that it is a human being and only gets one chance to live. That fact is exactly why the right to live outweighs all other rights.

She committed no crime to deserve this and no one is going to help her out of it, but herself. She should at least have a choice.

It is simply not true to suggest that no one is going to help her out of it. No one goes through anything alone any more unless they choose to be alone. And going through a thing alone by choice or by mandate is still not a valid reason to deny a human being their one shot at life.
 
Either life is sacred or it isn't. In the end do we have the right to judge and take the life of another for any reason?

What sacred? The law is the law. If you like the idea of letting a killer have the chace to kill again, or like the idea of revenge killing, then strike the laws that make killing illegal off the books.

If human life is sacred for some reason - if there is a "right" to life - then all life is sacred or none of it is.

And if it isn't? The whole sacred argument fails for me and fails miserably. No one can prove that a human life is sacred. That being said, how do you justify executing, or even imprisoning a killer if he has killed a life that ethier is or is not sacred? The whole sacred issue is a strawman and is irrelavent to the issue of one human being killing another. If you don't believe in the sacred, then you find that you will have to fabricate some other reason to imprison or execute killers because we simply can not allow one human being to take it upon his or herself to kill another.
 
No child should be denied it's chance to live.
The fact that it hasn't developed that far is irrelavent to the fact that it is a human being and only gets one chance to live. That fact is exactly why the right to live outweighs all other rights.

When you are measuring rights that conflict then I think it matters. It is her body and her life vs. it's body and it's life. She had no more choice in the situation then it did.

[quote
It is simply not true to suggest that no one is going to help her out of it. No one goes through anything alone any more unless they choose to be alone. And going through a thing alone by choice or by mandate is still not a valid reason to deny a human being their one shot at life.[/QUOTE]

That is an assumption. You don't know that.

In addition, many of the people who tend to vote "right to life" also tend to vote against government aid to individuals in need. Private aid is highly variable and can be contingent upon certain conditions. If you are middle class or better, maybe the impact is less. If you are poor, are your own means of support, have a job without benefits what exactly are you going to do? They don't have to grant you maternity leave do they? Estimates place the cost of pregnancy and bearing a child at around $10,000. Speaking only for myself...I could not come up with that money. Yet a woman who becomes pregnant by rape must.
 
. If you are middle class or better, maybe the impact is less. If you are poor, are your own means of support, have a job without benefits what exactly are you going to do? They don't have to grant you maternity leave do they? Estimates place the cost of pregnancy and bearing a child at around $10,000. Speaking only for myself...I could not come up with that money. Yet a woman who becomes pregnant by rape must.

So money, or lack of money is a valid reason to kill one's children? Are you pepared to make such a rule apply to us all or only to "them"?
 
What sacred? The law is the law. If you like the idea of letting a killer have the chace to kill again, or like the idea of revenge killing, then strike the laws that make killing illegal off the books.

Why is the law what it is? Why does it place a higher premium on human life then the life of another species?

You've cited before that otherwise we revert to the "law of the jungle". Why shouldn't we? Because perhaps there is something inherently more valuable in a human life then a non-human life? Or, by extension all life - the value being in life itself? Something we are completely unable to replicate? We can destroy but we sure can't create.

And if it isn't? The whole sacred argument fails for me and fails miserably. No one can prove that a human life is sacred.

The only thing that makes it sacred is us.

That being said, how do you justify executing, or even imprisoning a killer if he has killed a life that ethier is or is not sacred?

I don't support the death penalty, though the reason is not so much the sacredness of life then other reasons. So I won't justify it. Imprisonment is either for punishment or for the protection of society or both. I am not sure what you are asking me.

The whole sacred issue is a strawman and is irrelavent to the issue of one human being killing another. If you don't believe in the sacred, then you find that you will have to fabricate some other reason to imprison or execute killers because we simply can not allow one human being to take it upon his or herself to kill another.

Why is it a strawman?

If it were not important (ie sacred) then why protect it at all? Or are you saying that law is the what makes it "sacred" and only law?

If that is the case then...if the law is revised to say that only white people are protected - would that be "right"?

Am I misunderstanding you?
 
palerider;20224]
I am sure that there are other intelligent people on the board. They are the ones who are not in this discussion because they realise that my position is unassailable.

I believe there's been numerous great points in opposition to your opinion. People are in line with the law. The law has stood for decades and stands at this time for a reason. Until it is changed your "opinion" has not reached the level to be considered legal. That speaks for itself. Your whole case is based on... "IF" hoping against hope that someday the Supreme Court might somehow see things your way. If not women would be in your "sex" prison already.

I know that unborns are human beings. I know that human beings have a right to live. And I know that all rights are secondary to the right to live. Those aren't opinions top gun, those are the facts. You are unable to assail my position because your position is based on emotion, opinion, misunderstood science, and pure fantasy. If you had facts, you could as easily invalidate my position as I invalidate yours.

You know full well personhood in regard to a woman's right to choose has not been established before viability. You've said that yourself.

There is that distinction for good reason.

Why not hunt down and try for murder every solider and their commander that commits collateral damage when full blown innocent women & children are killed? The reason isn't because it's an accident. Everyone knows collateral damage is a fact of bombing. The reason is that there are many circumstances (this is just one) where there are surrounding mitigating circumstances that allow for the ending of life. And they are far more reaching than stopping 2 cells from developing with a Birth Control Pill or having an abortion before there are even brain waves. In an imperfect world the law must be allowed to make these distinctions... and they do.


Nothing new and nothing earthshattering. Just enough evidence to undermine the roe decision. There is a growing body of legal precedent for the personhood of unborns and even at the time roe was decided, the justices stated that if personhood is ever established, roe falls. Well, it has been established.

Come on now you know there is nothing biological new at all. You know it... everyone knows it. I can go back to the time of the original decision and find all the same "it's a human being" arguments there are now. And you also know personhood has never been established in regard to a woman's right to choose.

There's not even a case before the Supreme Court considering the overturning of Roe. Cite me the case? It's been 34 years surly some case has had time to work its way through the courts in 34 years. The truth is that the country will never allow Roe to be overturned. This genie is out of the bottle... but you're entitled to believe the South will rise again if you want.


A court decision does not constitute standing law.

Roe established that it was unconstitutional to prohibit a women the right to choose. Laws from that point on had to be in line with that United States Supreme Court decision.

Slavery was legal till it was overturned. All sorts of things have been legal based on court decisions till they were overturned. The decisions were overturned because they became indefensible, just like roe. And most of the 200 reversals that the supreme court has made stood longer than 34 years.

Well you may have a decent analogy here. The odds that slavery will be reinstated is probably the same as the odds America is going to make abortion illegal and start throwing American women into prison for murder for taking the current Birth Control Pill. If you just stop for one second and think how ridiculous that sounds and also take into consideration the real number of voting age adults (women & men) that would infuriate... even you know that's never really going to happen.

You support the law. Personally, I don't want that much blood on my hands.

I believe that we are a nation of laws. It would be anarchy if we weren't. This case was litigated in full all the way to the court of last resort. I give the high court my support on this issue. I'm pleased women can choose their own path. Choose not to have an abortion, but also not be jailed because they refuse to have their bodies hijacked by the government forced to be government incubators.
 
No. The reason I consistently give is no woman should be forced to bear a child against her will. Rape is clearly against her will.

So killing another human being to avoid doing a thing against your will is OK with you? And again, does that apply to all of us or just "them"?
 
I believe there's been numerous great points in opposition to your opinion. People are in line with the law. The law has stood for decades and stands at this time for a reason. Until it is changed your "opinion" has not reached the level to be considered legal. That speaks for itself.

I have challenged you and then defied you to bring forward any point that invalidates just one of the three legs of my positon. So far, nothing.

And simply waving the decision when you can not defend the decision illustrates the weakness of your position.

You know full well personhood has not been established before viability. You've said that yourself. There is a distinction in the law for good reason.

So now you begin to lie blatantly? I have never suggested that personhood has anything to do with viability. And precedent has been established and continues to accumulate for the personhood of the unborn. People are in prison today having been charged with both murder and manslaughter for killing unborns. One can be charged with neither if one has not killed a person.

Why not hunt down and try for murder every solider and their commander that commits collateral damage when full blown innocent women & children are killed? The reason isn't because it's an accident. Everyone knows collateral damage is a fact of bombing. The reason is that there are many circumstances (this is just one) where there are surrounding mitigating circumstances that allow for the ending of life. And this is far more than stopping 2 cells from developing with a Birth Control Pill or having an abortion before there are even brain waves. In an imperfect world the law must be allowed to make these distinctions... and they do.

The deliberate and premeditated killing of an innocent is a crime even during war time.

Come on you know there is nothing biological new at all. You know it... everyone knows it. I can go back to the time of the original decision and find all the same "it's a human being" arguments there are now. And you also know personhood has never been established in regard to a woman's right to chose.

They were arguments then with little science to back them up. Today, they are backed by the entire scientific community as no credible scientist would suggest that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being.

There's not even a case before the Supreme Court considering the overturning of Roe. Cite me the case? It's been 34 years surly some case has had time to work its way through the courts in 34 years. The truth is that the country will never allow Roe to be overturned. The genie is out of the bottle my friend. But you're entitled to believe the South will rise again if you want.

There are no less than 15 cases working their way through the superior courts that challenge roe. If you are interested, feel free to do the research on your own, or sit back smugly and be surprised as roe is eroded until it falls.

And while you are at it, research the couple of hundred times the court has reversed itself. Most of those cases stood over 34 years before they were overturned. The amount of time a case stands means nothing.

Roe established that it was unconstitutional to prohibit a women the right to chose. Laws from that point on had to be in line with that United States Supreme Court decision.

Show me a right to kill one's child in the constitution. Hell, show me something that can be construed to be a right to kill one's child in the constitution. I have asked this before and then, as now, you will be quite unable to defend the decison because no such right may be found within the constitution.

Well you may have a decent analogy here. The odds that slavery will be reinstated is probably the same as the odds America is going to make abortion illegal and start throwing American women into prison for murder for taking the current Birth Control Pill. If you just stop for one second and think how ridiculous that sounds and also take into consideration the real number of voting age adults (women & men) that would infuriate... even you know that's never really going to happen.

Here is another place where your reason fails. America didn't make abortion legal. Nine unelected, and unaccountable judges did and it was a very liberal court that did it. Roe rests entirely on how liberal the court is. A court that is concerned more with constitutional integrity than liberal social engineering can overturn the decision as easily as the liberal cout found it.

If America had legalized abortion, then law would have been written and legislated by the houses of congress. If America had legalized abortion, then this argument wouldn't exist because it would be very difficult to ever change the law. Of course, you know as well as I that in spite of your claim that the majority's approval of roe that abortion on demand woud have a snowball's chance in hell of making it through the house and senate.

I believe that we are a nation of laws. It would be anarchy if we weren't. This case was litigated in full all the way to the court of last resort. I give the high court my support on this issue. I'm pleased women can choose their own path. Choose not to have an abortion, but also not be jailed because they refuse to have their bodies hijacked by the government forced to be government incubators.

But it isn't law and is entirely dependent upon the relative liberalism or conservativism of the court. The present court is quite a different creature than the one that decided roe.

And be pleased all you like but the fact remains that you are quite unable to defend the roe decision. If there were a good defense of it, it would be well circulated by the pro choice movement and you would have little difficulty knocking at least one of the legs from my position rather than finding yourself reduced to personal attacks against me and sanctimonious platitudes proclaiming the righteousness of abortion.
 
palerider;20349]I have challenged you and then defied you to bring forward any point that invalidates just one of the three legs of my positon. So far, nothing.
And simply waving the decision when you can not defend the decision illustrates the weakness of your position.

Nothing weak about it. How can it be weak when it's already been debated and litigated all the way up to the highest level of the United States court system and my position is the standing rule? The fact is that the Supreme Court does not give personhood until viability. Everyone including them knows every biological reason you state and still they recognize the varying degrees of development and weigh that with the rights of the woman involved. Sometimes in law there is the reality of compromise verdicts. I see that as a good thing in this instance, you don't. But the ruling is the ruling until it changes. So as of now you are not winning. If you were abortion would be illegal. Just isn't gonna happen. The vast majority of the American people believe women should be allowed the choice. Even Bush as slow as he is recognized the numbers. When asked about overturning Roe he said quote, America isn't ready for that.

So now you begin to lie blatantly? I have never suggested that personhood has anything to do with viability. And precedent has been established and continues to accumulate for the personhood of the unborn. People are in prison today having been charged with both murder and manslaughter for killing unborns. One can be charged with neither if one has not killed a person.

That's not what I said. I said the Supreme Court looks at viability as personhood. All the "precedents" you talk about are not on the issue of abortion. We've already been over this. There are many instances in law where the circumstances surrounding a situation or a crime affect the definitions. You can be a driver of a get away car and if someone you drove killed somebody when you weren't even around you can be still be charged with murder. This is the question you have to answer. Is it the long standing and current ruling that personhood starts at conception in regard to a woman's right to choose? You know it's not. It's not going to be. All the other cases you cite do not affect the abortion issue in any way. Those laws have been on the books for years now. No overturn of Roe.

The deliberate and premeditated killing of an innocent is a crime even during war time.

Again not what I said. Collateral damage of innocent civilians is a given in bombing raids. We know it. It is no accident. Yet it is not murder. There are allowances in the law for circumstances and conflicting needs and rights. As it should be.

They were arguments then with little science to back them up. Today, they are backed by the entire scientific community as no credible scientist would suggest that the offspring of two human beings is ever anything but a human being.

Again absolutely nothing new. Same thing they said in 73.

There are no less than 15 cases working their way through the superior courts that challenge roe. If you are interested, feel free to do the research on your own, or sit back smugly and be surprised as roe is eroded until it falls.

Left foot in... left foot out... Again cite me a case that is under consideration for being heard by The United States Supreme Court. There is none.

If America had legalized abortion, then law would have been written and legislated by the houses of congress. If America had legalized abortion, then this argument wouldn't exist because it would be very difficult to ever change the law. Of course, you know as well as I that in spite of your claim that the majority's approval of roe that abortion on demand woud have a snowball's chance in hell of making it through the house and senate.

Actually I think there is some sense to be made out of this statement... can't believe I said that :D. I think people see the neo-con agenda as much more sinister than they did before Bush. Even though like I've said multiple times the American people and the American voting system would never allow abortion to be taken away permanently there is the Supreme Court appointment issue to always be concerned about. Yet another reason the Dems will continue to win for some time.

But all that aside I think that as soon as the votes present themselves and there is a Democratic President the issue should be cast into law. The majority does favor it 65% to 29%. Let the neo-con sabre rattling about taking away the right be the inspiration to set the course. I'm all for it! Carry on!


I'm just going to stay very relaxed. Watch the elections see which way they continue to go and wait and see if there's ever even a test case that the Supreme Court agrees to hear. In the mean time... all is good.
 
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Of course it is to avoid doing a thing against your will.

No. It is having my body used against my will with the possibility of damage or mortality.

You don't have the right to kill another human being unless they represent a real and present threat to your life.

No other human being has rights to my body against my will.
 
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