world population

Who says you can't pick and choose? Not me. Who wrote that scripture, not the daughters you can bet. If you have sex with your daughters while drunk and get them pregnant you will not avoid being prosecuted by the law--unless those daughters are the age of consent. We know only that Lot's daughters were virgins.

The other part I find interesting is that when a man is SO Drunk that he doesn't know he's having sex with his two daughters in a cave where they have just taken refuge after their city was destroyed, then my guess is that he's so drunk that he's not going to be sexually functional. The story stinks from beginning to end and it's nothing that we should teach our children as the Word of God. Take it out.

I can't control that you like and advocate revisionist history. But I do not.

It is quite common for people to get drunk, drive a car, and then have a complete blackout of the event. Memory is effected by alcohol more than the ability to drive. I would be willing to bet that lots ofpeople who are drunk enough to impair memory but not so much that they can't drive can have an erection. Not all but lots because clearly enough alcohol does effect many persons ability to have an erection. In fact alcoholics get better and better at acting not drunk when they areally are and at the same time more and more likely to have blackouts.

In fact I was even able to go get a direct quote from a scientific journal: the National Institute on Alcohol and Abuse and Alcoholism.
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/186-196.htm

"Blackouts represent episodes of amnesia, during which subjects are capable of participating even in salient, emotionally charged events—as well as more mundane events—that they later cannot remember (Goodwin 1995). Like milder alcohol–induced memory impairments, these periods of amnesia are primarily “anterograde,” meaning that alcohol impairs the ability to form new memories while the person is intoxicated, but does not typically erase memories formed before intoxication."
 
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That was already answered when I typed:

"they ate bread with the gentiles it was like eating defiled (baked over a dung fire) bread."

The reason the bread eaten by the Jews was defiled was that it was eaten in unclean circumstances (with gentiles who did not practice Kosher standards).

As a simile the bread eaten by Ezekiel was defiled because it was cooked over a fire made with dung.

Funny thing, that isn't what the Bible says. The problem here is that Christians have to "interpret" the Bible--hence more than 4000 arguing sects. Anyone who wishes to read what the Bible actually says should get a copy for themselves and not take some self-identified "Christian's" interpretation.
 
I can't control that you like and advocate revisionist history. But I do not.

It is quite common for people to get drunk, drive a car, and then have a complete blackout of the event. Memory is effected by alcohol more than the ability to drive. I would be willing to bet that lots ofpeople who are drunk enough to impair memory but not so much that they can't drive can have an erection. Not all but lots because clearly enough alcohol does effect many persons ability to have an erection. In fact alcoholics get better and better at acting not drunk when they areally are and at the same time more and more likely to have blackouts.

In fact I was even able to go get a direct quote from a scientific journal: the National Institute on Alcohol and Abuse and Alcoholism.
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/186-196.htm

"Blackouts represent episodes of amnesia, during which subjects are capable of participating even in salient, emotionally charged events—as well as more mundane events—that they later cannot remember (Goodwin 1995). Like milder alcohol–induced memory impairments, these periods of amnesia are primarily “anterograde,” meaning that alcohol impairs the ability to form new memories while the person is intoxicated, but does not typically erase memories formed before intoxication."

Okay, fair enough, he raped his daughters and impregnated them knowingly. What does the Bible say about incest? First this "godly" man tries to give his virgin daughters to a mob to abused and then he rapes them. Well at least the Bible teaches respect for women, doesn't it?
 
What possible relevance could a some document from an unitentified sources, interpreted from an ancient language, written and re-written by a hundred religious sources that had their own agenda... what possible significance can that have in ANY argument in a world that has experienced 3000 years of civilization since it was written?

It's laughable to even suggest that this has some relevance to any serious discussion of the modern world. The Old Testament should be sold in comic book stores - it's meaningless babble that some people will drag up as having relevance. It has none.
 
Funny thing, that isn't what the Bible says.

That is your interpretation. But it is my opinion that your interpreation of the bible is about as good as a psycotics interpretation of a Rorschach.
The problem here is that Christians have to "interpret" the Bible--hence more than 4000 arguing sects.

You like to say that as if it has any significance. But the reality is that there are only about 8 sects of Christianity.

Roman Catholicism,
Eastern Orthodoxy,
Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches,
Protestantism
Restorationists
Anglican Communion
Pentecostals
Others


And they are in agreement in the vast majority of their teachings. The differences tend to be minor and does not interfere with them cooperating with each other in the persuit of common goals.

Among the "Other" category I suppose there are many many different groups. Again, so what?

And yes different people make difernent interpretations. I woujd go beyond your statement and say that every individual makes his own unique interpretation that differes from others in at least one part. There is still a lot of agreement on the fundamentals and it is still pretty easy to see who the whackos are. btw, when it comes to interpretation yours are some of the most "out there".


Anyone who wishes to read what the Bible actually says should get a copy for themselves and not take some self-identified "Christian's" interpretation.

I encourage everyone to get several different versions and read them in light of several different trustworthy major interpretations. With wisdom and common sense most people can arrive at a good interpretation that will lead to salvation. Trustworthy evalutations are much more likely to come from a self-identified Christian who appears to be well versed as opposed to a fringe element that posts anti-theist hate sites on the internet.

I would say the same thing if they were reading a newspaper or a scientific journal. It is wise to read several different sources and to evalutate them in light of several interpretatons. The existence of different "sects" exist in all branches of thinking.

The cosmologists have their steady state theorists and their big bang theorists, the evolutionists have their gradual change theorists and their punctuated equalibrium theorists and when they "argue" they refine their interpretations to arrive at a better understanding of the information they are studying.
 
Okay, fair enough, he raped his daughters and impregnated them knowingly.

Fair enough that you admit you will revise what the texts says for no better reason than that you want to? The text is as clear as day that it was the daughters that tricked the father and that he was unaware of what happened.

Again:

"That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up."
What does the Bible say about incest?

http://www.christiancourier.com/art...-conflict-with-itself-in-the-matter-of-incest

First this "godly" man tries to give his virgin daughters to a mob to abused and then he rapes them. Well at least the Bible teaches respect for women, doesn't it?

The bible does not say he was Godly it says he was righteous. Which does not mean that he acts perfectly but that he is justified by faith.

The definition of righteous is to be free from sin. But the bible is clear that "all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God" So how do sinners become free from sin? Like Abraham [in Genesis 15:6] "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." And as Paul said: But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So the bible does not say that Lot did the right thing it merely records accurately what he did. Lot, like all men is ungodly, but unlike some men he has faith and it is credited to him as righteousness. That is how Lot can be called righteous and also be described commiting sin.

Historically the treatment of women always increases in places where the bible is introduced. I am not on my own computer right, but sitting in the ICU with my father, now so I can't provide a link.
 
What possible relevance could a some document from an unitentified sources, interpreted from an ancient language, written and re-written by a hundred religious sources that had their own agenda... what possible significance can that have in ANY argument in a world that has experienced 3000 years of civilization since it was written?

It's laughable to even suggest that this has some relevance to any serious discussion of the modern world. The Old Testament should be sold in comic book stores - it's meaningless babble that some people will drag up as having relevance. It has none.

Millions of people think it is relevant. If you do not then that is a matter of your concern.
 
According to the religious test 'What's your faith', that they have on belief net, I am a Liberal Protestant, Dr Who.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx

And how often have you and I been at odds on religious viewpoints? Quite often, I would say.

I would say the diveristy of religious opinions is very deep.

Between you and I it clearly is. If you are going to be at all honest, despite what the questionare says, you are hardly representative of even a liberal protestant. I meant for starters they tend to go to church right? And remember I did not say there are no diffferences. I said that the differences are not as significant as MT makes them out to be, that they tend to be minor in most areas and do not interfere with cooperation. Find the most right extreme in Christianity and the most left extreme and you will see differences. But they will still be much more alike than they are with non-Christians. They will still agree on a lot. And when they disagree - obviously one of them is wrong which should come as no surpirse as people are fallible. No one should be surprised that every individual holds some view that is wrong and every denomination holds some view that is wrong. Take the best of all (if you can figure it out) and you will have the most correct interpretation. The same can be said about mankinds scientific endeavors. All branches of science have some thing wrong. Take the best, if you can figure it out, and you have the best approximation of reality. But the existence of individuals and groups that hold wrong ideas does not mean that right ideas do not exist.
 
That is your interpretation. But it is my opinion that your interpreation of the bible is about as good as a psycotics interpretation of a Rorschach.
At least I can read the words that are written on the pages, I leave the "interpretation" to the folks like you who have been fine tuning the book for 2000 years and still haven't got it right.

You like to say that as if it has any significance. But the reality is that there are only about 8 sects of Christianity.

Roman Catholicism,
Eastern Orthodoxy,
Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches,
Protestantism
Restorationists
Anglican Communion
Pentecostals
Others
Well I guess that "Others" is quite a large group then, isn't it? Mormons, Santeria, White Supremicists, Christian Scientists, Reorganized Church of the Latter Day Saints, etc. You can claim to agree, but the fact is that you can't pray together in the same building.

And they are in agreement in the vast majority of their teachings. The differences tend to be minor and does not interfere with them cooperating with each other in the persuit of common goals.

Among the "Other" category I suppose there are many many different groups. Again, so what?
So what? Some Christians accept gay and transgendered people, in fact churches are breaking into new branches around the world on this issue. To the millions of people who have been shunned, persecuted, or killed in the last few hundred years--like Joan of Arc--it makes a LOT of difference.

And yes different people make difernent interpretations. I woujd go beyond your statement and say that every individual makes his own unique interpretation that differes from others in at least one part. There is still a lot of agreement on the fundamentals and it is still pretty easy to see who the whackos are. btw, when it comes to interpretation yours are some of the most "out there".
Actually, if you had a better education in the history of Christianity you'd know that I'm not so far out as you seem to think. I largely parted ways with Christianity philosophically when Saint Francis and Friars Minor left the mainstream--or perhaps more accurately the mainstream left them.

I encourage everyone to get several different versions and read them in light of several different trustworthy major interpretations. With wisdom and common sense most people can arrive at a good interpretation that will lead to salvation. Trustworthy evalutations are much more likely to come from a self-identified Christian who appears to be well versed as opposed to a fringe element that posts anti-theist hate sites on the internet.

I would say the same thing if they were reading a newspaper or a scientific journal. It is wise to read several different sources and to evalutate them in light of several interpretatons. The existence of different "sects" exist in all branches of thinking.

The cosmologists have their steady state theorists and their big bang theorists, the evolutionists have their gradual change theorists and their punctuated equalibrium theorists and when they "argue" they refine their interpretations to arrive at a better understanding of the information they are studying.
The interpretation is the most important part, you have to listen to other people because it's well known that God never talks to individuals, you can't have a relationship with God unless you go through an approved church that has all the proper "interpretations". You need to be sure to give money too, because God is always a little short on funds. Don't think! Have faith! Obey!

Yeah, right, that's why you get called a "sheeple" because you have to be lead around. Wake up, people, you don't need the churches to mediate your relationship with your Creator, He's there waiting, look in your heart. Remember the two most important commandments according to Jesus: Love God and Love others as yourself. Ask yourself why those two commandments aren't plastered on billboards at every Christian church, why they aren't on the lips of every Christian, ask Dr. Who why he's never posted them, talked about them, or advocated them while instead implying on a public discussion site that I'm a psychotic. And why does he think so? Because I disagree with the insanely violent characterization of God in the Bible. That's it, I advocate the good teachings of Jesus, I advocate non-violence, and somehow that makes me psychotic.

Dr. Who is not alone in such characterizations of people who don't wish to commit violence, an interesting note here is that in the history of the United States of America NO ONE has ever been arrested for protesting IN FAVOR of war, only anti-war protestors have been arrested.
 
Between you and I it clearly is. If you are going to be at all honest, despite what the questionare says, you are hardly representative of even a liberal protestant. I meant for starters they tend to go to church right? And remember I did not say there are no diffferences. I said that the differences are not as significant as MT makes them out to be, that they tend to be minor in most areas and do not interfere with cooperation. Find the most right extreme in Christianity and the most left extreme and you will see differences. But they will still be much more alike than they are with non-Christians. They will still agree on a lot. And when they disagree - obviously one of them is wrong which should come as no surpirse as people are fallible. No one should be surprised that every individual holds some view that is wrong and every denomination holds some view that is wrong. Take the best of all (if you can figure it out) and you will have the most correct interpretation. The same can be said about mankinds scientific endeavors. All branches of science have some thing wrong. Take the best, if you can figure it out, and you have the best approximation of reality. But the existence of individuals and groups that hold wrong ideas does not mean that right ideas do not exist.

Yes, just exactly.The Biblical mess contains all the good teachings of Jesus, and my position is that we should gather those gems and let the violent dross be washed away. Time to let the "eye for an eye" and "blood payment" attitudes be recognized for the barbaric anachronisms that they are. Let them go the way of the Old Testament burnt offerings and the taboos about women being unclean during their period.
 
At least I can read the words that are written on the pages, I leave the "interpretation" to the folks like you who have been fine tuning the book for 2000 years and still haven't got it right.


Well I guess that "Others" is quite a large group then, isn't it? Mormons, Santeria, White Supremicists, Christian Scientists, Reorganized Church of the Latter Day Saints, etc. You can claim to agree, but the fact is that you can't pray together in the same building.


So what? Some Christians accept gay and transgendered people, in fact churches are breaking into new branches around the world on this issue. To the millions of people who have been shunned, persecuted, or killed in the last few hundred years--like Joan of Arc--it makes a LOT of difference.


Actually, if you had a better education in the history of Christianity you'd know that I'm not so far out as you seem to think. I largely parted ways with Christianity philosophically when Saint Francis and Friars Minor left the mainstream--or perhaps more accurately the mainstream left them.


The interpretation is the most important part, you have to listen to other people because it's well known that God never talks to individuals, you can't have a relationship with God unless you go through an approved church that has all the proper "interpretations". You need to be sure to give money too, because God is always a little short on funds. Don't think! Have faith! Obey!

Yeah, right, that's why you get called a "sheeple" because you have to be lead around. Wake up, people, you don't need the churches to mediate your relationship with your Creator, He's there waiting, look in your heart. Remember the two most important commandments according to Jesus: Love God and Love others as yourself. Ask yourself why those two commandments aren't plastered on billboards at every Christian church, why they aren't on the lips of every Christian, ask Dr. Who why he's never posted them, talked about them, or advocated them while instead implying on a public discussion site that I'm a psychotic. And why does he think so? Because I disagree with the insanely violent characterization of God in the Bible. That's it, I advocate the good teachings of Jesus, I advocate non-violence, and somehow that makes me psychotic.

Dr. Who is not alone in such characterizations of people who don't wish to commit violence, an interesting note here is that in the history of the United States of America NO ONE has ever been arrested for protesting IN FAVOR of war, only anti-war protestors have been arrested.

No. You are still out there.
 
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