Why should I vote for McCain?

However academically John McCain was terrible at the Naval Academy 5th worst in his class 894 out of 899. I think at this point in time we need an exceptionally smart President not a 5th from the last President.

Sadly both predominant political parties are intent on making government bigger. This is the exact opposite of what our country was intended to be and antithetical to the spirit of our consitution. We do not need a smart man who will use his cleverness to grow governemnt. If anything a less smart candidate is less likelily to get bad things done while in office.

Better to have an average moderate than a clever socialist.

So am I conceding that O is smarter than M? No, grades in military academy are not the best measure of that.
 
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The main reason to vote for McCain is that he is a Republican.

Sure, I know, he is far from being a conservative, but he is a Republican, and, as such, more likely than a Democrat to veto the excessive spending bills that Congress is certain to pass.

Let's see...who will pass more spending bills a moderate republican with a democratic congress or a liberal democrat with a democratic congress?

Obviously when the congress and the president are from the same party they will pass more spending bills. if your goal is to reduce the number of spending bills that get passed that is exactly why you should vote for M.
 
Let's see...who will pass more spending bills a moderate republican with a democratic congress or a liberal democrat with a democratic congress?

Obviously when the congress and the president are from the same party they will pass more spending bills. if your goal is to reduce the number of spending bills that get passed that is exactly why you should vote for M.

Given the recent growth of government and size of the deficit, that is a laudable goal, don't you think?
 
Libsmasher;51274]You're just repeating another standard lie. Don't you tire of making a public ass out of yourself by spreading propaganda for which you have no proof? :D

I don't mean to state the obvious again... but I guess you need to hear it again. John McCain was TERRIBLE ACADEMICALLY. Out of 899 people all doing what he was supposed to do he ranked #894... 5th worst. That's not good my friend. It's very easy to look it up Goggle John McCain's class ranking at the Naval Academy.

If your position is being a terrible student and slow lazy learner is good then you are right on track backing John McCain.

But I think someone who knows how to study multiple situations to come up with good judgments seems kinda important right now. A John McCain saying he really doesn't know a lot about the economy when we already know he's always been less than a hard intellectual worker does not inspire any confidence at all.

Just listen to John McCain on economics... he wishes interest rates were 0%... of course that would mean there wasn't any interest which is a rather unlikely banking procedure. And... I need to be educated on the economy.

He's a real bad deal for what we're facing right now in America... a solid C- student.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaR1CnfyrEo[/COLOR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_APdK9fgDM

Right - a decorated US miltary hero is merely a "trained killer". Boy, would I like to be there if an appeaser punk ever had the nerve to say any of this crap to his face.

Oh pleeeeeeeease!
:D The guy is like 100 years old and 5'6" tall. That Napoleon Syndrome he has only works on his wives and little kids his size. You know like when he calls his own wife a cun! Plus he can barely even walk down a plane ramp... limp, limp, limp...

Any comparison with Obama would show McCain's VASTLY more prepared to be president and commander in chief than Obama. You don't have the guts to debate that though, because you are limited to cowardly anonymous defamation on the internet.

And you are?????????:D

Obama is soooo much more a President for the times!

In case you haven't noticed your great Republican leader George Bush besides invading the wrong country and refusing to leave... Credit Crisis... Home Mortgage Meltdown... Major drop in Home values... Fannie May & Freddie Mac looking for a government bailout... Worse inflation in 27 years... Some Banks actually starting to go belly up... Gas & Food prices soaring... and let's not forget GEORGE BUSH fully in charge asleep at the switch not protecting our country on 9-11 when terrorist mowed down 3000 Americans.

Kudos to you and yours!!! Great job running the country.............. into the ground.


Pure fiction - all this crap is just a lie you keep telling yourself. You don't even TRY to support your wild claims. Besides being a debate coward, my guess is you are a plain ordinary coward in real life.

I'll be around so we'll see won't we? There's no honest debate that John McCain isn't very old and has had an unbelievable amount of serious health problems. I'm just saying when John McCain losses the election for President he will be looking to leave politics altogether and retire.

Kerry's military comrades who were there tell us all we need to know about Kerry - he was a big fraud, and people saw through him.

You really aren't very patriotic are you?

How about all the people he served with and all the high ranking officers that openly supported Senator Kerry. You act as if your fondness for swift boating fools anybody anymore. I personally was at 2 separate rallies where Vietnam Vets in person could not have been more proud of Senator Kerry... and I can't even count all the major high ranking command that supported Senator Kerry.

I'll not attack peoples serivice to our country. Whether they took out a machine gun nest, threw themselves on a granade, were a prisoner or just served their time and got out... they all still get my respect just for serving.

Of course that has nothing to do with being qualified to be President of the United States. If it were than every homeless veteran on the street would be the CEO of a major company.


The conventions hold nothing of the kind. Give a citation - you won't because you know you're making things up.

I'm making things up???... you are seriously clueless aren't you my friend? The Geneva Convention says you cannot torture (that would be Article 3). Water boarding is torture and even John McCain used to agree with that. You know John McCain was against torture before he was for it. And these are just some of the many reasons why.

ACLU Outlines Ways Water boarding has Already Been Declared Illegal by the Federal Government (11/8/2007)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: media@dcaclu.org

Washington, DC – As the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties hears testimony today regarding torture and interrogation of detainees, the American Civil Liberties Union presents indisputable evidence that water boarding has been repeatedly classified as torture and is banned by U.S. law. Water boarding has been the subject of intense controversy recently as attorney general candidate Michael Mukasey has refused to classify it as torture.

Amrit Singh, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s Immigrants’ Rights Project, will testify today about how harsh interrogation techniques -- including waterboarding -- are both illegal and ineffective for gaining reliable intelligence.

Congress has enacted four statutes and ratified two treaties that prohibit torture of all kinds. By any reasonable reading of the statutes, waterboarding is a crime. Waterboarding is also considered illegal under both Senate-ratified treaties.

The applicable laws are:

The federal Anti-Torture Act; the federal War Crimes Act which, even as amended by the Military Commissions Act, bans acts such as waterboarding; federal criminal assault laws, which, under the PATRIOT Act, apply to all assaults by or against Americans on or in overseas facilities designated for the use of the federal government; the McCain Amendment in the Detainee Treatment Act; the Senate-ratified Convention Against Torture; and the Senate-ratified Geneva Conventions (particularly Common Article 3, which prohibits torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees).

"While we support legislation to put the entire government, rather that just the Defense Department, under the Army Field Manual on Interrogations, waterboarding has long been a crime," said Christopher Anders, senior legislative counsel for the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. "Other than administering electric shocks or using the rack, it is hard to find a more clear-cut form of torture than waterboarding."

And for Christ Sake here's old John McCain himself in his own words... guess what... Flip Floppin' all over another issue. This time torture & water boarding. Can't get more proof than the guys OWN WORDS! Sad... very sad.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrgFGZYFzE
 
I don't mean to state the obvious again... but I guess you need to hear it again. John McCain was TERRIBLE ACADEMICALLY. Out of 899 people all doing what he was supposed to do he ranked #894... 5th worst. That's not good my friend. It's very easy to look it up Goggle John McCain's class ranking at the Naval Academy.



"McCain entered the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis. There, he was a friend and leader for many of his classmates,[10] and sometimes stood up for people who were being bullied.[5] He also became a lightweight boxer.[5][11] McCain had conflicts with higher-ups, and he was disinclined to obey every rule, which contributed to a low class rank (894 of 899) that he did not aim to improve.[10][12][13][14] McCain did well in academic subjects that interested him, such as literature and history, but studied only enough to pass subjects he disliked, such as math.[5] McCain graduated in 1958.[10]"

Do you know how rigerous the ordeal is to become a navy pilot? NOt just to graduate from the academh but to be a pilot. And if we only look at being in the academy - Only 14% of the 10,000 some applicants are accepted each year. Saying he passed with one of the lowest rankings is like saying that of all the physicists on the Manhatten project that Oppenheimer was the least intelligent.

Did you happen to notice how his unwillingness to cooperate was a factor that lowered his grade? Some people just don't like to be told what to do - these people tend to grow up to be leaders rather than followers. You know like US senators.

And of course poor grades when they are a result of not trying reflect not trying rather than poor intellect.
 
I'm making things up???... you are seriously clueless aren't you my friend? The Geneva Convention says you cannot torture (that would be Article 3). Water boarding is torture and even John McCain used to agree with that. You know John McCain was against torture before he was for it. And these are just some of the many reasons why.

ACLU Outlines Ways Water boarding has Already Been Declared Illegal by the Federal Government (11/8/2007)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact: media@dcaclu.org

I'll skip all your repetitive mental masturbation I've already refuted, and focus on this. You said waterboarding was prohibited by the Geneva Convention. What you come back with is a liberal-left organization's opinion about federal law. See? Everyone can see with perfect clarity that you are a cowardly big mouthed jackass who can't provide any proof for anything you say. You're just a crude, stupid, ignorant lowbrow defamer - nothing else.
 
:)
I'll skip all your repetitive mental masturbation I've already refuted, and focus on this. You said waterboarding was prohibited by the Geneva Convention. What you come back with is a liberal-left organization's opinion about federal law. See? Everyone can see with perfect clarity that you are a cowardly big mouthed jackass who can't provide any proof for anything you say. You're just a crude, stupid, ignorant lowbrow defamer - nothing else.

Well if posting the code itself specifically (Article 3) and posting other Federal Laws addressing torture of detainees and posting an unaltered McCain interview with even him in no uncertain terms stating water boarding is torture and illegal...

I've done all I can to educate you on the matter. I guess we'll just move on...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrgFGZYFzE


GCIII covers the treatment of prisoners of war (POWs) in an international armed conflict. In particular, Article 17 says that "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind." POW status under GCIII has far fewer exemptions than "Protected Person" status under GCIV. Captured enemy combatants in an international armed conflict automatically have the protection of GCIII and are POWs under GCIII unless they are determined by a competent tribunal to not be a POW (GCIII Article 5).


OOPS!:)
 
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Where is the outrage about our soldiers treatment at the hands of the enemy?

Oh, Thats right.... Republicans are the REAL enemy to America...

Lets do the "adopt a terrorist" program, then Top Gun can have his very own terrorist living in his home and see to it Muhammed Al-Killya Inyasleep is treated well.
 
soldier_held.jpg


Where is the outrage about our soldiers treatment at the hands of the enemy?

Oh, Thats right.... Republicans are the REAL enemy to America...

Lets do the "adopt a terrorist" program, then Top Gun can have his very own terrorist living in his home and see to it Muhammed Al-Killya Inyasleep is treated well.

You know when I look up pathetic in the dictionary I see a picture of you.

My Uncle Orville was a Captain in an Infantry Division that was attached the General Patton's Armor Division in WW2. My Father a Sergeant who served in country in Korea. My wife is ex-US Army Intelligence attached to the NSA.

And my best friend's son Scott just got back from his third tour in Iraq and also did one in Kuwait.

But you are such a coward and a fear monger that you want to be a terrorist and not hold up the honor of The United States of America.

The Geneva Convention and all the other laws rules, regulations and laws pertaining to the treatment of prisoners is there to PROTECT OUR FIGHTING MEN AND WOMEN you nim rod. It allows for criminal war crimes prosecution of those that are caught & convicted of torture & crimes against humanity.

Let me tell you something smart guy. I worry about Scottie getting ambushed or kidnapped or shot or roadside bombed every frickin' single day he's over there.

And the last thing I need to hear is some punk not in harms way probably in his mommies basement making jokes about how our boys get killed.
 
Well, we both have friends and family that serve.... Its nice to hear you DO care about OUR troops.... Cry all you like about Waterboarding, you sound like an idiot.... We have used it all of what? 3 Times? Get over yourself with the "America tortures innocent people" crap.

It allows for criminal war crimes prosecution of those that are caught & convicted of torture & crimes against humanity.

When has that EVER happened to a terrorist? Did Terrorists sign the GC, fight in uniforms, wear any kind of Insignia or ANY of the other requirements of the GC? So stop being all high and mighty - we do still have the moral high ground.
 
Well if posting the code itself specifically (Article 3) and posting other Federal Laws addressing torture of detainees and posting an unaltered McCain interview with even him in no uncertain terms stating water boarding is torture and illegal...

Terrorists are NOT PROTECTED BY GCIII, since they fail to meet the criteria as Prisoners of War as established in Article 4 of GCIII, and any protections they do receive are due solely to, and dependent upon, our pleasure. You mentioned Article 3 of GCIII, yet you failed (intentionally I presume) to mention the fact that Article 4 clearly excludes ANY of the individuals we have captured, in Iraq OR Afghanistan, since 9-11, so your Article 17 objection is MOOT. Just in case you'd care to actually take the time and actually read it, I'll include a LINK for you.
 
Terrorists are NOT PROTECTED BY GCIII, since they fail to meet the criteria as Prisoners of War as established in Article 4 of GCIII, and any protections they do receive are due solely to, and dependent upon, our pleasure. You mentioned Article 3 of GCIII, yet you failed (intentionally I presume) to mention the fact that Article 4 clearly excludes ANY of the individuals we have captured, in Iraq OR Afghanistan, since 9-11, so your Article 17 objection is MOOT. Just in case you'd care to actually take the time and actually read it, I'll include a LINK for you.

Problem is bush does not call them Pows yet declared war on them, yes says they have no rights to the civil system as well. Bascily Bush says, if we say you are a terrorist, you have no rights, at all. We can never let you go, never charge you, never show evidence, you cant see who accused you, you have no right to lawyers and even said this happened to American Citizens...the courts have gone against his judgement on every single case so far.
 
Problem is bush does not call them Pows yet declared war on them,

They have been at war with us for years, we are just now fighting back.

yes says they have no rights to the civil system as well.

They don't.

Bascily Bush says, if we say you are a terrorist, you have no rights, at all. We can never let you go, never charge you, never show evidence, you cant see who accused you, you have no right to lawyers

We don't HAVE to do any of those things..true. But thats where you're getting hung up... saying we don't HAVE to is not the same as saying we're not GOING to and HAVEN'T been.

I have shown we were processing detainees and have already released over 10k of them with just 33 that returned. We DIDN'T HAVE to do that but did it anyway - SCOTUS has now FORCED us to do it the way you want, which is bad for our Military and even worse for the innocent Detainees.

and even said this happened to American Citizens...the courts have gone against his judgement on every single case so far.

I would like to see the evidence that we have done any of that to an American.... Sounds like the "Obama had gay sex and smoked crack" type of accusation that SOME people are willing to believe regardless of its merit.
 
Why vote McCain

since the Bushbots seem to be using more time bashing Obama , I hit this one as well.

1.Ranking member on the Armed Services Committee. This to me trumps that he flew a bomber, and was a POW by far. This is where the Politics and real Policy work and ideas aer formed and come from. Being in the armed services is a added bonus, but this is far closer to the work of the President then military work.
1.A Called for the Surge when it was looked down on by nearly anyone ( and I mean Dems and Republicans all where casting doubt and attacking it.) I think this was before this board, but on the last board I posted at, you would see that I called for more troops from the start, saying we needed to crack down hard to stabilize or it would just keep a endless cycle. Not having the troops needed in the first place was possibly a bigger mistake in my view then the war itself even.
B. Called on Bush to change strategy early on, not years after it was to late to get what would have been a much more clear victory that would have saved tens of thousands of lives. Still wish he would have been this vocal about the screwed up plans before we screwed up, but at least he was not like most Republicans who said its going great....as tens of thousands died in the streets in a Insurgency that it took Bush almost a year to finally pay attention to.

2.Actuly cares about the environment. It would be a nice to see a republican who does not ignore science and facts just because its not good for business. ( in there view , though many would say its good for it) His Reforms may not go far enough, but just seeing a republican actually doing something about it (Props to Nixon for a start on that....yea that's right I just gave props to Nixon) With this , maybe the real reports from the EPA can get out, and we can start to have real honest talk about this issue.

3. Health Care ...he has a plan....so that's better then the last 16 years+
Open portable and force more clear pricing. Fact is that if we cant have universal, we need at least a more consumer driven system that gives people real choices and does not tie being able to get health care, to your job. To many workers fear they cant lose there job, or not take a new one. Not because of pay, but because they have health issues and they cant afford to not have health care, or if they need to change planes, they will be raped for preexisting conditions. Its a idea that at least gets us on the right track, and I think could with work on both sides be used to get something close to all people covered at at least a rate that is better then today.

4. "Jerry Falwell and Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, McCain launched a vicious attack on these "self-appointed leaders" of the Christian right. He called them "agents of intolerance" and described the two men as the right wing equivalent to Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton." He also attacked Talk Radio ( aka Rush) as not being good for our nation.
Thats all I realy need to hear, even if he sucks up a bit to them now to win, I know that at least his true fealings about those Radicals is the same as me.

Just a few

that said, I am proChoice and he seems to have no economic plan at all and has been way to cozy with Bush.
 
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Problem is bush does not call them Pows yet declared war on them, yes says they have no rights to the civil system as well. Bascily Bush says, if we say you are a terrorist, you have no rights, at all. We can never let you go, never charge you, never show evidence, you cant see who accused you, you have no right to lawyers and even said this happened to American Citizens...the courts have gone against his judgement on every single case so far.

To be fair, President Bush was trying to abide by the letter and spirit of GCIII. GCIII specifically states that they can be held UNTIL a Tribunal determines their status, and Bush was trying to let the military hold their tribunals, however, a bunch of bleeding hearts started screeching bloody murder about that, and got it hung up in the courts for YEARS. If anybody is to blame for those detainees NOT having their status determined, it's those libs. Also, GCIII specifically details exactly what criteria must be met for one to be categorized as a POW, and none of the people we've captured meet ANY of them, ergo, they are NOT, under GCIII, POW's.

Lastly, and this is critical, when was the last time we allowed ANYONE we captured during an armed conflict to "go home", or be released in any way until the hostilities were over? Unless I've missed something, that would be during the Civil War. In every war since, anyone we've captured has been detained for the duration of hostilities, and NOT been charged with any crime, since being a Soldier IS NOT a crime. To be perfectly honest, the fact that we have NOT charged, tried, convicted, sentenced, and SHOT any of them for being a spy, a charge that is easily shown by the fact that they were "out of uniform" when they were captured, is testimony to our magnanimous character.

As for the courts rulings, I could not be in more disagreement. At no time in our history has ANY enemy combatant, lawful or unlawful, been tried in an American court, nor had his status challenged before the courts. Once we declare war, any dealings having to do with those captured has always been left to the military to deal with (in accordance with 50 USC), so I am at an utter loss to determine on what grounds the courts have determined that they are to be given this honor. Frankly, it boggles the mind.

The only possible reasons I can come up with for the courts to be permitting these terrorists to be brought before American civilian courts would be for the possibility of their receiving the death penalty, and having it actually enforced, which is something that the military hasn't done in years. The other is that if these trials ARE made public, and the evidence against them IS broadcast to the public, it could very well, once and for all, silence all of this silly "they're innocents who were grabbed out of their homes" BS, and the American people will finally see who it is that we're REALLY up against in this fight.
 
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