who should be judged more harshly?

[Mr. Shaman]

I wasn't saying we should have went... history obviously shows that we shouldn't have. I was just saying there was an already present ongoing struggel going on that we became intwinded in more & more.

Bingo!! We didn't just....all-of-a-sudden decide to get involved, during the Johnson Admin. We'd been there, during, and right-after WWII....a good fifteen years earlier than "conservatives" are able to admit.

 

[BigRob]

Bingo!! We didn't just....all-of-a-sudden decide to get involved, during the Johnson Admin. We'd been there, during, and right-after WWII....a good fifteen years earlier than "conservatives" are able to admit.

I don't know who really argued that, but Johnson really escalated the war to the biggest extent. Kennedy escalated it before him, but we did have advisers with Eisenhower.

It was widely viewed as a test of containment after JFK gave the "bear any burden" speech. It was also through the context of "limited war", a context that was establish in the Koran conflict. It basically meant the superpowers could fight each other to an extent without fear of major escalation into nuclear war.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Lyndon Johnson and the U.S. Navy faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident in order to justify even greater U.S. military intervention.

Who (exactly) faked it, is disputable.

"On August 4, 1964, Squadron Commander Stockdale was one of the US pilots flying overhead during the second alleged attack of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident; unlike the first attack, this one is believed to have been a false alarm. In the early 1990s, he recounted: "I had the best seat in the house to watch that event, and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets—there were no PT boats there.... There was nothing there but black water and American fire power." Stockdale said his superiors ordered him to keep quiet about this. After he was captured, this knowledge threw a burden upon him. He later said he was concerned that his captors would eventually force him to reveal that he knew this secret about the Vietnam War."

"On the night of Aug. 4, the Pentagon proclaimed that a second attack by North Vietnamese PT boats had occurred earlier that day in the Tonkin Gulf — a report cited by President Johnson as he went on national TV that evening to announce a momentous escalation in the war: air strikes against North Vietnam.

But Johnson ordered U.S. bombers to "retaliate" for a North Vietnamese torpedo attack that never happened.

Prior to the U.S. air strikes, top officials in Washington had reason to doubt that any Aug. 4 attack by North Vietnam had occurred. Cables from the U.S. task force commander in the Tonkin Gulf, Captain John J. Herrick, referred to "freak weather effects," "almost total darkness" and an "overeager sonarman" who "was hearing ship's own propeller beat."

Why such inaccurate news coverage? Wells points to the media's "almost exclusive reliance on U.S. government officials as sources of information" — as well as "reluctance to question official pronouncements on 'national security issues.'"

Sound familiar?

"The leading edge of doubt which ultimately forced the February 1968 review of the Gulf of Tonkin incident arose over whether a second attack on U.S. warships had occurred on the night of August 4. Following the initial naval battle of August 2, President Johnson ordered a second U.S. destroyer, the USS C. Turner Joy, to join the Maddox, after which both ships sailed back up the Gulf of Tonkin. On the night of August 4, both ships thought they had come under attack again and sent messages reporting enemy contacts, torpedoes in the water, and so on, while directing a good deal of fire at the supposed adversary."

 

[Andy]

Both were wrong. Although in Vietnam we were originally asked in and in Iraq we were led in by complete and utter lies, half truths and misconceptions.

The goal here is to not let the Republicans repeat the mistake of the continuation of Vietnam.

Once again, the Rockefeller report clearly proved there were not lies. Stop lying Top Liar.

 

[Andy]

Tough one to answer, both were wrong. One was done for cold war communism and the other was done for oil.

What does this have to do with Not Voting For Nobama?

What? Where does this stupidity come from? You show me one single example of oil captured from Iraq? Just one! Show me the millions of barrels of free oil we have flowing into our country? Why didn't the price of gasoline collapse if we have all this free oil captured from Iraq??

... hint... IT WAS NOT ABOUT OIL! Where do these idiotic theories come from?

 

[Andy]

Lyndon Johnson and the U.S. Navy faked the Gulf of Tonkin incident in order to justify even greater U.S. military intervention

Er... ok, my study of history suggests only one of the TWO separate instances was determined to be an error. In one of the two "Tonkin Gulf" events, a US war ship, as far as I've been able to determine from evidence, was in fact attacked by two NVC torpedo boats.

Unless I missed something, it was the other incident which LBJ himself said the report was so nebulas that they could have been shooting at flying fish in the area.

 

[Andy]

Yeah.....unlike "conservatives", I rely too-heavily on historical-fact.

Yeah, or liberals who simply make up their own facts as support, like that Thomas Jefferson fabricated 'quote' you had, or those 1.5 Million 'civilian' casualties, or the dozens of other completely made up junk you spew on here.

If there is anyone who shouldn't be talking about 'historical-fact', it is you. I have yet to see a factually correct post from you yet.

If House of Politics had a "Socialist Fiction" section, they'd make you moderator of it.