Which group of armed men should we fear?

The answer is that we need to fear the future leaders of this country who will have the accumulated powers of all the Presidents before them who have grown the power of the presidency and congress.

Is there really anyone here who does not think that either President Obama has too much power or that f P. Bush had too much power? Seriously, if there is anyone here at all that does not think that one of those two men had/have too much power please speak up now.
 
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The answer is that we need to fear the future leaders of this country who will have the accumulated powers of all the Presidents before them who have grown the power of the presidency and congress.

Is there really anyone here who does not think that either President Obama has too much power or that f P. Bush had too much power? Seriously, if there is anyone here at all that does not think that one of those two men had/have too much power please speak up now.

Finally, you've made a post I can agree with. Yes, no question, we've given the presidency too much power.
 
Yes our Pres does have people with guns to enforce his agenda.

After he raises taxes real high just try not paying them and then wait to see how long before the Sheriff with real guns evicts you from your former home or carts you off to jail where others with real guns will keep you locked up.

The president can't raise taxes "real high" or any other way. The president may be the CIC of the armed forces, but he doesn't have the power to raise taxes, only the Congress can do that.

What is more likely than a huge tax increase due to over spending is inflation. The government won't have to send in any mounties to collect that tax, of course.


My original statement was that thinking that the pres was going to send in the military to force us into socialism is a tinfoil hat theory. We may have given the presidency too much power, but it doesn't extend to forcing an economic system on an unwilling public by force of arms.

Having purchased GM is a pretty scary move towards socialism, one we really need to keep a watch on, but it wasn't accomplished by sending in the army to take over the auto industry the way we took over Iraq, was it?

Or, did I somehow miss the GM invasion? Perhaps it was ignored by the left leaning MSM. Sure, that's it.
 
I've already said my piece several times on the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry, so I'll refrain from repeating myself. The point I would like to make is the danger in having a military presence of any sort that has boots on American soil. This is something our founding fathers warned us against and clearly put into the Constitution to protect us. There are too many wrong turns in history to allow this to happen.

Let's say for argument sake that this comes to pass. Our current administration uses this new power appropriately, but the next administration is a cross between Bush, LBJ, and Teddy Roosevelt - with a little Mussolini mixed in. Now how do you feel about a Federal military presence in your neighborhood?

It's not always about now. We have to look into the future and think ahead when allowing such legislation to amending our constitution.

We could of used you when that nutbag Bush invaded & occupied Iraq on a big bag of lies and stripped away American Civil Liberties with his hilariously named "Patriot Act". Patriot Act meaning a person acting like a "Patriot" wouldn't mind having his Civil Liberties taken away.:eek:

But back then crickets... crickets.

As Yoda would say... Selective fearmongering I see.


 
It's not always about now. We have to look into the future and think ahead when allowing such legislation to amending our constitution.

Amen brother!

Too bad the dumbing down of America has been so effective because its destroyed the average attention span. The people who think this-or-that legislation is insignificant and of no consequence are living in a dream world.

Posse Comitatus was amended by Bush to howls of Fascism from the Radical left. Once Obama took office, he kept that Bush doctrine in place. I thought it was dangerous when Bush did it, and I still think its too dangerous a policy for any administration to leave in place.

“Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation” - Madison

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” - Madison

“The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted.” - Madison

“It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.” - Madison

“In Republics, the great danger is, that the majority may not sufficiently respect the rights of the minority” - Madison

Madison, like the other founders, has proven himself to be a prophetic man with brilliant foresight and a keen understanding of mans capacity to enslave his fellow man.
 

Why do we besmirch these hooded men? They seem like perfectly rational Republicans just wanting to bear arms at the Piggly Wiggly is case there's a double coupon dispute or something.:eek:

And these ultra Conservative gentlemen locked & loaded I certainly want at teacher conferences and at the bus stop picking up their kids next to my kids at elementary school don't you?

 

Why do we besmirch these hooded men? They seem like perfectly rational Republicans just wanting to bear arms at the Piggly Wiggly is case there's a double coupon dispute or something.:eek:

And these ultra Conservative gentlemen locked & loaded I certainly want at teacher conferences and at the bus stop picking up their kids next to my kids at elementary school don't you?


White power skinheads conservatives Republicans.
 
I'm not sure you know what socialism really is, in fact. It is not the opposite of freedom, but an alternative to capitalism.

Socialism is evil, it is the opposite of freedom. The only alternative to Capitalism is slavery. That is how Collectivism works, the productive are used as cattle, sheep, workhorses etc. while the non and under-productive feast on the labor of others while riding their coattails.

Pragmatism teaches that one needn't have "logically conclusive justifications" for what one considers to be knowledge. You just have to believe something and that makes it true. Pragmatism is dangerous because its an extremist ideology that falsely claims not to be an ideology at all... by rejecting the principles contained in all other ideologies, Pragmatism creates the illusion that its a doctrine that rejects strict ideological principles but in truth, it only rejects those principles that are not in line with the strict pragmatic ideological principles.
 
Socialism is evil, it is the opposite of freedom. The only alternative to Capitalism is slavery. That is how Collectivism works, the productive are used as cattle, sheep, workhorses etc. while the non and under-productive feast on the labor of others while riding their coattails.

Pragmatism teaches that one needn't have "logically conclusive justifications" for what one considers to be knowledge. You just have to believe something and that makes it true. Pragmatism is dangerous because its an extremist ideology that falsely claims not to be an ideology at all... by rejecting the principles contained in all other ideologies, Pragmatism creates the illusion that its a doctrine that rejects strict ideological principles but in truth, it only rejects those principles that are not in line with the strict pragmatic ideological principles.


Socialism is a failed economic system in which the government owns the means of production. I suppose you could argue that it is anti freedom, as it does limit the freedom to own a part of that means of production. Even in a socialist economy, the individual still makes and lives with most decisions, just not which stocks to buy.

Pragmatism is favoring what works over what does not work. Socialism does not work, therefore, it is not pragmatic. Unregulated capitalism doesn't work, either, so the pragmatist will favor a capitalist economy, but with government regulation.

Ideology might favor a limited government, but some regulation is necessary to prevent disasters like Enron and the failure of the banks. Ideology that favors just letting free market capitalism work unfettered sounds good, but doesn't work in the real world. That's why pragmatism is important as well.

Ideology in favor of a limited government, and therefore in favor of the government keeping hands off of the health insurance industry, will lead to an unworkable system. The system we have now is largely unworkable, due to cost. The pragmatic thing to do is to limit costs, even if it means compromising the ideology of limited government.
 
White power skinheads conservatives Republicans.

Why do you bother? The Radical Left has been spewing the same hate filled rhetoric for more than 60 years.

Of course they have to equate all opposition to their radical Left Wing agenda as being born of Racism, Sexism, Bigotry etc.... Otherwise the public might wake up to the fact that its the Radical Left who supports policies that discriminate based on superficial qualities such as race and gender.

They can't support, or defend, their policies and positions in a rational manor. They cannot use logic, reason or substance, to persuade rational people to buy into their Radical Ideology... so they don't even try, they just resort to thought terminating cliche's (which are quite effective in our modern world of 30 second attention spans) and vitriolic personal attacks that demonize anyone who dares hold an opinion contrary to their own.

These are the people who "champion" diversity... Diversity to them is everybody having vastly different superficial characteristics (race, sex, religion, sexuality, etc.) but zero tolerance for anyone that doesn't think, act and speak precisely as the Radical Left Collective demands.
 
Socialism is a failed economic system in which the government owns the means of production.
This appears to be the extent of your knowledge of Socialism, and that's sad.

I suppose you could argue that it is anti freedom, as it does limit the freedom to own a part of that means of production.
Your understanding of Socialism is as shallow as your definition of it. At its core, Socialism is a Collectivist ideology... What do you know of Collectivism?

Even in a socialist economy, the individual still makes and lives with most decisions
WRONG! The individual is a slave to the collective. The "greater good" and the nameless, faceless, unaccountable, indestructable entity known as "society" plays the role of God and its the responsibility of the individual to worship, praise, and serve with altruistic fervor any whim of the collective.

Pragmatism is favoring what works over what does not work.
From where do you derive your knowledge of Pragmatism? Mine is from careful study of the Pragmatist movement through the ages, reading works from Pierce, James, Dewey, and the rest.

Pragmatism is Anti-Realist (there are no constants and there is no truth), its based on an extremist view of Fallibilism (since there is no truth, all facts are treated as opinion and given equal validity to one another), Pragmatism draws ZERO distinction between theory and practice (it says they are the same thing), therefore....

Pragmatism cannot favor that which works over that which doesn't work because by the ideological principles of Pragmatism, its all subjective and the anti-realist basis of Pragmatism state that there is no difference between something that "works" on paper and something that "works" in the real world.

Socialism does not work, therefore, it is not pragmatic.
Socialism is evil. It subjugates the Individual, through force of government, to the whim of the collective. This destroys individual rights in favor of collective rights.

Unregulated capitalism doesn't work
Once again, your understanding of Lassiez Faire Capitalism is shallow and flawed. Rather than spew falsehoods and half truths about something you don't understand, you should take the time to learn about what it is your saying doesn't work. It's clear you've acquired your "knowledge" of Lassiez Faire Capitalism by everyone but actual Lassiez Faire Capitalists.

the pragmatist will favor a capitalist economy, but with government regulation.
That is a Fascist Economy. At least man up and proudly state that you prefer the Fascist economic model rather than pretend its simply a "Mixed" economic model.

Ideology might favor a limited government, but some regulation is necessary to prevent disasters like Enron and the failure of the banks.
We've been through this before and you appear just as ignorant today as ever... REGULATION does NOT protect individual rights, Laws accomplish that. Regulation tells a company such things as how many miles the cars they produce must achieve, or bars Insurance Companies from offering such things as Catastrophic insurance - which is far more affordable than the cover-it-all insurance they are forced to sell through draconian regulations.

Ideology that favors just letting free market capitalism work unfettered sounds good, but doesn't work in the real world.
WTF!!! Are you serious? UNFETTERED? Being limited by law to respect individual rights, and being punished for violations, is not UNFETTERED!!

You're parroting the talking points of the Anti-Capitalists... You're ashamed to say what it is you're arguing for (in your case Fascist Economics) but you're eager to mischaracterize Capitalism as an "unworkable" model that doesn't respect individual rights in order to avoid accurately naming what it is you're advocating.

Ideology in favor of a limited government, and therefore in favor of the government keeping hands off of the health insurance industry, will lead to an unworkable system.
Right... Just like it has with our food supply. Get a grip. Governments job is to protect us from force and fraud, laws that are written that provide that protection is not only acceptable under Lassiez Faire Capitalism, its precisely what Lassiez Faire Capitalists seek to limit the government to doing.

The system we have now is largely unworkable, due to cost.
Due to Government Interference with unnecessary regulations.

Justify why government should prevent, through existing regulations, insurance companies from offering such cost saving measures as catastrophic care insurance... Cat Policies used to exist, they were affordable and widely avaliable, but they were regulated out of existence by government interference.

Justify the existence of regulations that prevent Insurance companies from competing with each other across state lines (as the "Public Option" would unfairly be allowed to do).

Those are just two of many examples of government regulations that unnecessarily increase costs for both providers and consumers.

The pragmatic thing to do is to limit costs, even if it means compromising the ideology of limited government.
Your solution is an expansion of the Collectivist ideological system of forcably shackling individuals to the collective. It DOES NOT limit costs, it simply pushes costs into the federal debt and onto future generations, mortgaging the futures of individuals not yet born. Its the typical "quick fix" solution of our patchwork system that creates more problems than it solves... it lowers costs to the consumer, but does nothing to lower costs on the providers end and therefore is not practical... Its suicide.
 
This appears to be the extent of your knowledge of Socialism, and that's sad.


Your understanding of Socialism is as shallow as your definition of it. At its core, Socialism is a Collectivist ideology... What do you know of Collectivism?


WRONG! The individual is a slave to the collective. The "greater good" and the nameless, faceless, unaccountable, indestructable entity known as "society" plays the role of God and its the responsibility of the individual to worship, praise, and serve with altruistic fervor any whim of the collective.


From where do you derive your knowledge of Pragmatism? Mine is from careful study of the Pragmatist movement through the ages, reading works from Pierce, James, Dewey, and the rest.

Pragmatism is Anti-Realist (there are no constants and there is no truth), its based on an extremist view of Fallibilism (since there is no truth, all facts are treated as opinion and given equal validity to one another), Pragmatism draws ZERO distinction between theory and practice (it says they are the same thing), therefore....

Pragmatism cannot favor that which works over that which doesn't work because by the ideological principles of Pragmatism, its all subjective and the anti-realist basis of Pragmatism state that there is no difference between something that "works" on paper and something that "works" in the real world.


Socialism is evil. It subjugates the Individual, through force of government, to the whim of the collective. This destroys individual rights in favor of collective rights.


Once again, your understanding of Lassiez Faire Capitalism is shallow and flawed. Rather than spew falsehoods and half truths about something you don't understand, you should take the time to learn about what it is your saying doesn't work. It's clear you've acquired your "knowledge" of Lassiez Faire Capitalism by everyone but actual Lassiez Faire Capitalists.


That is a Fascist Economy. At least man up and proudly state that you prefer the Fascist economic model rather than pretend its simply a "Mixed" economic model.


We've been through this before and you appear just as ignorant today as ever... REGULATION does NOT protect individual rights, Laws accomplish that. Regulation tells a company such things as how many miles the cars they produce must achieve, or bars Insurance Companies from offering such things as Catastrophic insurance - which is far more affordable than the cover-it-all insurance they are forced to sell through draconian regulations.


WTF!!! Are you serious? UNFETTERED? Being limited by law to respect individual rights, and being punished for violations, is not UNFETTERED!!

You're parroting the talking points of the Anti-Capitalists... You're ashamed to say what it is you're arguing for (in your case Fascist Economics) but you're eager to mischaracterize Capitalism as an "unworkable" model that doesn't respect individual rights in order to avoid accurately naming what it is you're advocating.


Right... Just like it has with our food supply. Get a grip. Governments job is to protect us from force and fraud, laws that are written that provide that protection is not only acceptable under Lassiez Faire Capitalism, its precisely what Lassiez Faire Capitalists seek to limit the government to doing.


Due to Government Interference with unnecessary regulations.

Justify why government should prevent, through existing regulations, insurance companies from offering such cost saving measures as catastrophic care insurance... Cat Policies used to exist, they were affordable and widely avaliable, but they were regulated out of existence by government interference.

Justify the existence of regulations that prevent Insurance companies from competing with each other across state lines (as the "Public Option" would unfairly be allowed to do).

Those are just two of many examples of government regulations that unnecessarily increase costs for both providers and consumers.


Your solution is an expansion of the Collectivist ideological system of forcably shackling individuals to the collective. It DOES NOT limit costs, it simply pushes costs into the federal debt and onto future generations, mortgaging the futures of individuals not yet born. Its the typical "quick fix" solution of our patchwork system that creates more problems than it solves... it lowers costs to the consumer, but does nothing to lower costs on the providers end and therefore is not practical... Its suicide.

It appears you are right about the definition of socialism. I was only using definition #1:

* Main Entry: so·cial·ism
* Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
* Function: noun
* Date: 1837

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

And, when I use the word "pragmatism", I'm also referring to definition #1:


* Main Entry: prag·ma·tism
* Pronunciation: \ˈprag-mə-ˌti-zəm\
* Function: noun
* Date: circa 1864

1 : a practical approach to problems and affairs <tried to strike a balance between principles and pragmatism>
2 : an American movement in philosophy founded by C. S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief

So, I have to admit you have a point there, also. When I say pragmatism, just substitute: "a practical approach to problems and affairs." That is what I've been talking about.

As for Lassez Faire Capitalism , here is the definition:

1. An economic doctrine that opposes governmental regulation of or interference in commerce beyond the minimum necessary for a free-enterprise system to operate according to its own economic laws.
2. Noninterference in the affairs of others.

The lack of government regulation brought us Enron and the near collapse of the banking system. Nineteenth century lassez faire capitalism created widespread poverty and, in the early 20th. century, the great depression. Like socialism (definition #1), it is a failed economic system. Of course, regulation beyond what is necessary is counterproductive, but then, what is necessary? I agree that not allowing competition across state lines is unnecessary. That should be an easy fix. Why, though, would a public option eliminate such competition?

Yes, there has been too much regulation in some industries, and it has led to waste. The CAFE standards come to mind as one that simply resulted in unintended consequences. We have to be careful, however, in imposing too little regulation.

I agree with you that socialism (definition #2) is evil.

Pragmatism (again, definition #1) is exactly what we need to solve the crisis in health care and bring costs under control. A single payer system is not socialism, certainly not definition #2 socialism. It would give us greater freedom, making it much easier to change jobs or to ditch corporate America completely and open a small business.

No wonder you've been disagreeing with my points. We've been using different definitions.
 
The president can't raise taxes "real high" or any other way. The president may be the CIC of the armed forces, but he doesn't have the power to raise taxes, only the Congress can do that.
Technically correct. Neverthless his policies have a great impact on the situtation.
What is more likely than a huge tax increase due to over spending is inflation. The government won't have to send in any mounties to collect that tax, of course.

I agree that it is more likely only because it has already happened and the tax increases while pretty darn certain have not yet happened.
My original statement was that thinking that the pres was going to send in the military to force us into socialism is a tinfoil hat theory. We may have given the presidency too much power, but it doesn't extend to forcing an economic system on an unwilling public by force of arms.
Agreed again. He may force it upon us by trickery instead. Once it is in place then we will see how future leaders handle that power and system.
Having purchased GM is a pretty scary move towards socialism, one we really need to keep a watch on, but it wasn't accomplished by sending in the army to take over the auto industry the way we took over Iraq, was it?


Right again. And yes it is pretty remarkably scary. Scary enough that one would imagine more than one major media outlet would care.
Or, did I somehow miss the GM invasion? Perhaps it was ignored by the left leaning MSM. Sure, that's it.


It is an invasion neverthless, just not military.

How do you think these prediction made over 200 years ago relate to the situation?

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow."
-- James Madison

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
-- James Madison

"the true theory of our Constitution is surely the wisest and best . . . (for) when all government . . . shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another, and will become as . . . oppressive as the government from which we separated."
--Thomas Jefferson

"We must confine ourselves to the powers described in the Constitution, and the moment we pass it, we take an arbitrary stride towards a despotic Government."
-- James Jackson
 
Socialism is a failed economic system in which the government owns the means of production. I suppose you could argue that it is anti freedom, as it does limit the freedom to own a part of that means of production. Even in a socialist economy, the individual still makes and lives with most decisions, just not which stocks to buy.

Pragmatism is favoring what works over what does not work. Socialism does not work, therefore, it is not pragmatic. Unregulated capitalism doesn't work, either, so the pragmatist will favor a capitalist economy, but with government regulation.

Ideology might favor a limited government, but some regulation is necessary to prevent disasters like Enron and the failure of the banks. Ideology that favors just letting free market capitalism work unfettered sounds good, but doesn't work in the real world. That's why pragmatism is important as well.

Ideology in favor of a limited government, and therefore in favor of the government keeping hands off of the health insurance industry, will lead to an unworkable system. The system we have now is largely unworkable, due to cost. The pragmatic thing to do is to limit costs, even if it means compromising the ideology of limited government.

So close. But no cigar.

The ideology that established this country did not limit how much regulation the gov could have in establishing justice. That is unlimited. What is limited is the power to infringe on our rights. We live in a regulated capitalism with rights that are supposed to be as free as possible.

The gov is free to regulate the health care industry in order to establish justice. Is it unjust to cancel a policy after a person gets sick? Then justice would demand that canceling policies like that be illegal. What is not demanded is that canceling policies by used as an excuse to move us toward socialism. Does justice require anti monopoly laws? then it would require that insurance companies trade across state lines so that we have more choices and lower prices. It does not demand that we establish a public option that moves us toward socialism. Etc.

Too many moves of this admin move us toward socialism and its anti freedom failed agenda. There are perfectly good ways for the gov to regulate insurance while maintaining a regulated capitalism. So why does the admin choose the wrong ways so consistently? Could it be for the same reason that our P. surrounds himself with so many communists?
 
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Justify why government should prevent, through existing regulations, insurance companies from offering such cost saving measures as catastrophic care insurance... Cat Policies used to exist, they were affordable and widely avaliable, but they were regulated out of existence by government interference.


I have been asking why they would do such a thing. And, seriously, I can think of no reason other than a long standing plan to replace private enterprise with socialism. I am open to hearing other ideas.
 
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