What's your view on "gay rights"

[vyo476]

Marriage is what it is. It is a union between a man and a woman. I don't favor redefining words, or granting special rights based on such trivialities as sexual preference.

Redefining words happens all the time. Refer to r0beph's argument in the thread about using the word "gay" as a slur and you'll see what I mean.

So let's not make it a "special right." You say that homosexuals have the right o marry just like straight people right now, because they have the right to marry a member of the opposite sex. So let's give everyone the right to marry the same sex as well. That's not a special right; its a right everyone would have access to.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I had kind of hoped that my polite query to Mr. Palerider and my equally polite pm to him might have elicited a response, but since they did not, I guess I'll just have to move on without him.

My hope was that I could find some common ground with him from which to start a dialogue and after reading all of his posts on this thread I realized that he and I agree about the fact that there should be no special rights. All consenting adults in the US should be covered equally under the law--it's called "equal protection".

Mr. PR (I hope that no one minds my abbreviation) has taken a very strong stand on the subject of NO ONE getting special rights, but then he has taken an equally strong stand that only people with his sexual orientation, or people willing to masquerade as people of his sexual orientation, should be legally allowed to marry and form a family. I'm pretty sure there is a word for a person who says one thing and then deliberately does the opposite, but I'm not sure what word that would be.

If Mr. PR is telling the truth about his stance on special rights, then his only defensible position is to have the law changed so that ANY consenting adult has the LEGAL right to a marriage contract with ANY other consenting adult and thereby receive all the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as Mr. PR currently wishes to reserve, as special rights, for his particular group and pretenders thereto.

 

[palerider]

I'm new to this site, Mr. Palerider, and I noted that you have invested a bit of time and energy in this thread. Would you mind telling me please, what is your interest in the subject? Do you object to gay marriage from basically a religious perspective or a libertarian one, or is it something else entirely? You seem to have well constructed--almost polished--arguments, like you've discussed this subject with others before. Would you mind giving me a little more perspective on "where you're coming from" (if you will forgive the cliche)?

I am a fiscal, and social conservative. I have an historical interest in the fall of empires and nations and believe that I have learned a few things from history. Among them is that empires, nations, and states begin to deteriorate when long held pillars of their society are tossed aside in favor of "new" ideas.

That isn't to say that new ideas aren't fine, and needed to keep a society from stagnating (another lesson learned) but new ideas must be integrated slowly and disregarded if and when they begin showing signs of damaging the society in general.

Thanks for the critique on my style. I haven't really spent much time debating this subject but I try to present a coherent argument on any subject I engage.

 

[palerider]

I believe homosexuals have just as mutch rights as any straight man or woman to marry....
They are no more less of a human being as any one on this planet~

They do have exactly the same rights as anyone else. If you are arguing that you believe that men should be able to marry men and women should be able to marry women, you are not asking for equal rights, you are asking for special rights granted on no more than sexual preference.

 

[palerider]

What is marriage anyway to a non-religious person?

Marriage didn't begin as a religious arrangement. Religion didn't get into the marriage business until long after it (marriage) had become a solid pillar in most societies. Anthropologically speaking, marriage came about because it takes so long for our young to mature. There was a need to establish and foster a relationship between two people that could be reasonably expected to last long enough to see to the raising of children. To that end, society and government had to support the arrangement.

Religion got involved in marriage much later.

 

[palerider]

Redefining words happens all the time. Refer to r0beph's argument in the thread about using the word "gay" as a slur and you'll see what I mean.

So let's not make it a "special right." You say that homosexuals have the right o marry just like straight people right now, because they have the right to marry a member of the opposite sex. So let's give everyone the right to marry the same sex as well. That's not a special right; its a right everyone would have access to.

The fact is that it would be a special right. YOu are talking about changing one of the pillars of society based on the sexual prefrences of no more than 3% of the society. Can you tell me with any confidence what the long term ramifications of such a change would be? Examine some history and look at the effects of seemingly small changes made within a society for arguably "good" reasons. You might start with the idea of welfare.

 

[xavier30m]

I still don't get the big deal. Why does it matter to anyone if gays get married? Why is that such a big problem? Who are they hurting and how does it affect you? Special right or not, that is happiness for people that are American citizens. In my opinion, that should be the concern. The very idea of repeating what the marriage right is, is simply a stuck up way of saying "we don't want your kind getting married" and don't act like it isn't.
Certain religious people even use that stupid nonsense, "homosexuals would be undermining the sanctity of marriage" and blah blah blah. Ya, like the current divorce rates, adultery cases, incest cases, family child molestation cases and so forth really show how heterosexuals have done a great job of that one.
And to anyone that says that you cannot equate race with sexual orientation.....ya okay sure. The US once denied blacks several different rights simply because of color. The US continues to deny homosexual the right to marry the person that they choose simply because of their orientation, even though they may marry someone of the opposite sex and therefore be completely miserable all their lives. It's just a stupid mess. It is really sad that in this day in age, people still have such a hard time excepting change.

 

[ArmChair General]

The fact is that it would be a special right. YOu are talking about changing one of the pillars of society based on the sexual prefrences of no more than 3% of the society. Can you tell me with any confidence what the long term ramifications of such a change would be? Examine some history and look at the effects of seemingly small changes made within a society for arguably "good" reasons. You might start with the idea of welfare.

Yah I can. Are any of these places having massive social upheavels because they let fags marry?

Just admit it PaleRider, your a bigot.



Nations that recognize gay marriage:

Canada
In June of 2005, the Canadian Parliament enacted a law allowing legal marriage for same-sex couples.

Belgium
The second nation to legalize same-sex marriage in 2003.

Netherlands
The first country to grant gay marriage in 2001.

South Africa
South Africa became the fifth nation to recognize gay marriage in 2005.

Spain
Spain became the forth nation to allow gay marriage on June 29, 2005.


US states that recognize gay marriage:

New Jersey
On October 25, 2006, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that New Jersey must allow same-sex couples to marry. However, the court left the decision up to lawmakers whether those rights would be extended in the form of full marriage or civil unions that allow gay couples all of the privileges of marriage. read more

Massachusetts
On May 17, 2004 Massachusetts became the first U.S. state to legalize same-sex marriage.

Read: Mass. Upholds Gay Marriage | How To Get Married in Massachusetts


Nations that allow same-sex partnerships:

Croatia
Civil partnerships for same-sex couples have been granted since 2003.

Denmark
Legal civil partnerships have been allowed since 1989.

Finland
Has offered registered partnership benefits since September 2001.

France
Pacte Civil de Solidarité” (PACS), or “Civil Solidarity Pacts,” were instituted in France on November 9, 1999.

Germany
Gay couples can register as "Life Partnerships," granting lesser financial and pension benefits than marriage.

Great Britain
Domestic partners can register under the Civil Partnership Act. This legislation took affect in December 5, 2005 giving registered same-sex couples rights similar to marriage in areas such as pensions, property, social security, and housing.

Hungary
Gay couples have been protected under common-law marriages since 1995; however they are not eligible for legal marriage.

Iceland
Since 1996, gay Icelanders have been protected under registered partnerships.

Luxembourg
Civil partnership legislation modeled after France's PACS were introduced in Luxembourg in 2004.

New Zealand
In December, 2004, New Zealand enacted legislation recognizing same-sex civil unions.

Norway
Since 1996, gay Norwegians have been protected under registered partnerships.

Portugal
Same-sex partners have the same rights as opposite-sex partners in common law marriage.

Scotland
Civil partnerships have been afforded to same-sex couples since 2004.

Sweden
Swedish same-sex couples have been able to register under domestic partnership laws since 1995.

Switzerland
Same-sex couples are given limited legal benefits with civil recognition.


U.S. States that allow same-sex partnerships:


California
California provides domestic partnership benefits. The state legislature successfully voted in favor of legal gay marriage in California, only to be vetoed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. In March, 2005, a San Francisco judge ruled that the law banning same-sex marriage was unconstitutional.

Connecticut
Although Connecticut defines marriage as between a man and woman, it became the second U.S. state to grant same-sex civil unions in April, 2005.

Vermont
The first U.S. state to offer same-sex civil unions in 2000. Learn about Vermont civil unions.

Nations that ban same-sex unions:

Honduras
On March 29, 2005, the constitution of Honduras was amended banning same-sex marriage and adoption by same-sex couples.

Latvia
December 21, 2005 marked the day Latvian president Vaira Vike-Freiberga signed into law a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

Uganda
On September 29, 2005, legislation banning same-sex unions was signed by Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni. Penalties for gay marriage will be set in 2006. Under current law, homosexual acts are punishable by imprisonment from five years to life.

 

[Kelly]

"The fact is that it would be a special right. YOu are talking about changing one of the pillars of society based on the sexual prefrences of no more than 3% of the society. Can you tell me with any confidence what the long term ramifications of such a change would be? Examine some history and look at the effects of seemingly small changes made within a society for arguably "good" reasons. You might start with the idea of welfare."
--Oh yeah Palerider...you really hit the nail on the head with that one. If they let the f**s marry one another, the sanctity of marriage would forever be gone. The very next day, all of the Evangelical, Baptist, and Catholic couples in America will file for divorce because marriage no longer matters. All of America's youth will CHOOSE to become gay. Then bin laden will come with the devil, 2pac, and Arafat to take over. Next, it'll be a huge sex fest and all resulting pregnancies will be forcefully aborted by Planned Parenthood while scientists finally debunk the 'myth' that excess CO2 in the atmosphere makes the temperature increase. Then Bill Clinton will spark up a fatty and tax everyone until the poor become rich and the rich become poor. Oh My God!!! It will be a total disaster!!!

 

[top gun]

Redefining words happens all the time. Refer to r0beph's argument in the thread about using the word "gay" as a slur and you'll see what I mean.

So let's not make it a "special right." You say that homosexuals have the right o marry just like straight people right now, because they have the right to marry a member of the opposite sex. So let's give everyone the right to marry the same sex as well. That's not a special right; its a right everyone would have access to.

Your observation seems reasonable to me.

Whenever I hear those so opposed to the use of a word it strikes me as bazaar. Straight=marriage... gay=civil union???
Here's one... Let's not let anyone who's gay get a drivers license. They can get a rectangular piece of plastic with their name and identification on it but it cannot be a "Drivers License"... it's must be called an "Operators Permit"... LoL!

 

[Kelly]

3% of society my a**! Ever go to S.F. or Houston (where I live)? The Gay community is only getting stronger and finally getting some of the equality that it has deserved for so long. The more society accepts the Gay community, the more you will see people feeling comfortable and confident enough to 'come out of the closet.' When you suddenly realize that Gay folks make up a significant part of the population, you're gonna feel pretty bad about your bigotry. Besides (and I'm being totally serious here), Gay folks can teach A LOT about fashion, culture, music, how to run a night club, how to cook, art, poetry, not to mention how to care about our society and EVERYONE who lives in it. You're totally missing out if you're not cool with gay people!

 

[maynuh]

This subject is getting very old and I am extremely tired of all of the "Jesus Freaks" quoting the bible about homosexuality being wrong.. Does the bible give priests special rights? Look at all of the furor of late concerning priests sexually abusing alter boys, etc. I am so damned tired of gay people being treated as second rate citizens simply because they arre "different". They are NOT different, they are the same as heterosexuals. They just have sex differently. They deserve the same rights and treatment as anyone else. I am not gay but I do have many friends and relatives who are and I think no differently about them than I do anyone else.

 

[vyo476]

The fact is that it would be a special right. YOu are talking about changing one of the pillars of society based on the sexual prefrences of no more than 3% of the society. Can you tell me with any confidence what the long term ramifications of such a change would be? Examine some history and look at the effects of seemingly small changes made within a society for arguably "good" reasons. You might start with the idea of welfare.

Marriage is a pillar of our society? Well...seems like that "pillar" is pretty well decayed already anyway, huh? What with quickie marriages, divorces, etc.

At one point slavery was a major pillar of the Southern economy and the Southern social structure. We went and changed that and yes, there were negative side effects. I guess it wasn't worth it then, huh? I mean, it benefited a minority of people and there were plenty of negative ramifications for the majority of the people of the United States.

 

[Justinian]

Hey FOlks

3% of society my a**! Ever go to S.F. or Houston (where I live)? The Gay community is only getting stronger and finally getting some of the equality that it has deserved for so long. The more society accepts the Gay community, the more you will see people feeling comfortable and confident enough to 'come out of the closet.' When you suddenly realize that Gay folks make up a significant part of the population, you're gonna feel pretty bad about your bigotry. Besides (and I'm being totally serious here), Gay folks can teach A LOT about fashion, culture, music, how to run a night club, how to cook, art, poetry, not to mention how to care about our society and EVERYONE who lives in it. You're totally missing out if you're not cool with gay people!

It's getting stronger because they're kicked out of everywhere else and can't make a living. No wonder why your posts are so stupid. You're from San Fran. Goes to show ya folks what happens to people who grow up with faggots and dykes.

 

[9sublime]

You're so full of hate and convinced you're right. Whats the point of you being here?