What Should Marriage Be?

give me an older example that can be proven . I dont know how you could do it? A cave picture of a couple with a wedding dress on ? without writing we dont know what they were thinking, doing or their social habbits.

I was thinking of the indigenous peoples who have very long oral histories. Especially the aboriginal people in Australia and the Kalaharia bushmen. Very egalitarian people as a general rule.
 
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Actually... Yes

I do think its bad. I think its one of the reason our moral standards have decade to sub human. Its unreal to me to see the decay of the human beings, as though Darwin were backwards. its more like DE volving.

but I have been "brainwashed: by the live and let live crowd that as long as they are not doing rape or child porn, let the porn happen and let the poeple doing it worry about the decay of their souls.

Things were little different when Puritanism was around, just more stuff was done sub rosa. I think that the Swedes and Dutch have a much better system in which most stuff is legal so that it's out in the open and everyone knows about it. Hiding things keeps people in the dark and they never learn how to deal with the ugly things rationally.

I'm a big fan of freedom as long as there is no coercion allowed, for instance I've no interest in pornography, but if the people who make it are there because they want to engage in sex on film and you want to buy it and watch it, then I'm okay with that. It's when the actors are forced to perform and you use the porn by showing it to little kids that I have a problem with it.

Another issue I have is gay marriage. People are always trashing gay people for this and that, but turn it around, what if only gay people were allowed to marry, they got all the legal rights and privileges, and heteros had no legal union available to them, they had no way to legally protect their loved ones, inherit, get health coverage, etc. I'll bet the hetero community would have far more crazy behaviors than it does now--and it's got plenty now.
 
Things were little different when Puritanism was around, just more stuff was done sub rosa. I think that the Swedes and Dutch have a much better system in which most stuff is legal so that it's out in the open and everyone knows about it. Hiding things keeps people in the dark and they never learn how to deal with the ugly things rationally.

Amsterdam is a good example of human society in decay. They hav caved to everything the “people” wanted. They changed the rules to anyone can get married, but guess what? Marriage is in deep decline. Drugs are legal, a huge precent of the population is addicted to herion and they have to actually have a government job to pick up hyperdermic needles in parks and other public places.

I often hear how if we could just legalize drugs we wouldn’t have needles in park problems, but all we have to do is to look where its been done and see it created a worse problem. I personally think the attack on marriage is to make it just like Amsterdam, where no one would want to bother with it.

If people want to be in moral decay, I really don’t care about it. But mabye we could have a red light district. Like one state that any imoral thing can happen. And since Washington state has already past beastiality (as long as the animal is willing) I say lets make Washington state the state where anyone can go and do any seedy thing they want.

I'm a big fan of freedom as long as there is no coercion allowed, for instance I've no interest in pornography, but if the people who make it are there because they want to engage in sex on film and you want to buy it and watch it, then I'm okay with that. It's when the actors are forced to perform and you use the porn by showing it to little kids that I have a problem with it.

I am too but I also think we shouldn’t have strip clubs in front of schools. Like my above statement, im up for every seedy thing a person wants to do as long as they keep it out of my face and other peoples faces who wont want anything to do with it, so give them a state of their own to tear down like Amsterdam. But leave everyone else alone.

Another issue I have is gay marriage. People are always trashing gay people for this and that, but turn it around, what if only gay people were allowed to marry, they got all the legal rights and privileges, and heteros had no legal union available to them, they had no way to legally protect their loved ones, inherit, get health coverage, etc. I'll bet the hetero community would have far more crazy behaviors than it does now--and it's got plenty now

You keep changing your point. You posted you think gay people should be able to marry because of love and commitment but then in other posts it’s about the benefits.

I don’t think people “trash” gays. I mean sure there are some egg heads out there who hate just for the sake of hating.

But to me there is a big difference in hating someone because they are gay and not believing we should cave in to our sexual feelings no matter how strong if they are not moral. Even if we feel we are born that way.

I would be perfectly happy if no person got any special rights married or not. But if you just add gay marriage to the existing laws it really does cause a problem. Polygamists do have marriage rights (according to the constitution under the first amendment) if we change for gay marriage then we MUST do the same for Polygamy.

Once we start down that path who will be the next group? Half brother/sisters or heck full brother sisters. I know for sure if my sister/brother was in need of my medical benefits or if I knew I wasn’t going to be around long but they could get years of pay from my PERS retirement plan and all I had to do was marry them to make it possible I WOULD DO IT IN A HEART BEAT. Please tell me why I shouldn’t be able to do it if marriage is for anyone? I’ll want the same benefits your getting.

At what point do we stop and say the line stops here and what do you say to the next group of people on the other side of that line?
 
Another good example of slippery slope is inheritance

So Grandma lived well but doesn’t want the government to take so much in an inheritance tax. Marry your grandson and make it simple. Just cut through the middle man.

Heck the more I think about this the more l like it. An endless loophole
 
Thinking about this …… I bet you could make money off of this. I have great health insurance. I could marry lets say a lady with 5 kids who cant really afford to cover them all, they get my benefits for free and she gives me lets say an extra 200 dollars a month tax free. Or even better I could marry someone with a real serious disease that costs a lot to cover like cancer or aides and they could pay me even more per month. But I especially like the idea you can marry your own family to get them covered or get them your retirement benefits.
 
Amsterdam is a good example of human society in decay. They hav caved to everything the “people” wanted. They changed the rules to anyone can get married, but guess what? Marriage is in deep decline. Drugs are legal, a huge precent of the population is addicted to herion and they have to actually have a government job to pick up hyperdermic needles in parks and other public places.

I often hear how if we could just legalize drugs we wouldn’t have needles in park problems, but all we have to do is to look where its been done and see it created a worse problem. I personally think the attack on marriage is to make it just like Amsterdam, where no one would want to bother with it.
Marriage is in declince in lots of places and it has nothing to do with drugs or gays. I'd like to see some stats on your claim that a "huge percent" of the population is addicted to heroin. Oregon has groups that pick up garbage too, we clean up hypodermic needles at the sites we service all the time--legality isn't the issue. We need to make a world that people want to LIVE IN rather than ESCAPE FROM.


If people want to be in moral decay, I really don’t care about it. But mabye we could have a red light district. Like one state that any imoral thing can happen. And since Washington state has already past beastiality (as long as the animal is willing) I say lets make Washington state the state where anyone can go and do any seedy thing they want.
Let's have a citation for the law allowing bestiality in Washington State please.

I am too but I also think we shouldn’t have strip clubs in front of schools. Like my above statement, im up for every seedy thing a person wants to do as long as they keep it out of my face and other peoples faces who wont want anything to do with it, so give them a state of their own to tear down like Amsterdam. But leave everyone else alone.
There are lots of things that should be kept away from schools besides strip clubs: any place that serves liquor, aluminum smelters, paper mills, nuke waste dump sites, even Congressmen and Senators.

You keep changing your point. You posted you think gay people should be able to marry because of love and commitment but then in other posts it’s about the benefits.
I change my points when I discuss different issues. Love and committment are what marriage should be about. People have asked why gay folks aren't satisfied with a 2nd class marriage called "civil unions" and that is due to the legal rights attached to "real" marriage under US law. Two separate issues, and addressed with separate points.

I don’t think people “trash” gays. I mean sure there are some egg heads out there who hate just for the sake of hating.

But to me there is a big difference in hating someone because they are gay and not believing we should cave in to our sexual feelings no matter how strong if they are not moral. Even if we feel we are born that way.
I am far less sanguine about announcing what is and isn't "moral" than you, I don't know of anything that proves homosexuality is immoral. If it is just immorality then one would think that it would only be found in cultures where immoriality flourishes, yet every culture for which we have records had gay people, more than 1500 species of animals have homosexual relationships--almost all the higher animals. Maybe it's a natural occurence and we just haven't teased out the reason for it yet. There is a good book called COWS, PIGS, WARS, AND WITCHES that looks at a bunch of taboos and explains why they were actually based on reasonable ideas.

Once we start down that path who will be the next group? Half brother/sisters or heck full brother sisters. I know for sure if my sister/brother was in need of my medical benefits or if I knew I wasn’t going to be around long but they could get years of pay from my PERS retirement plan and all I had to do was marry them to make it possible I WOULD DO IT IN A HEART BEAT. Please tell me why I shouldn’t be able to do it if marriage is for anyone? I’ll want the same benefits your getting.

At what point do we stop and say the line stops here and what do you say to the next group of people on the other side of that line?
Now YOU are the one mixing subjects, incest causes physical harm to the children often enough that it is illegal. There is no proof that homosexuality is inherently damaging to a person. Most of the prohibitions against certain kinds of marriages are based on reasonable scientific facts, the ban on gays is based entirely on religious dogma and therefore is not valid. Plural marriages have been common down through history and they work just fine, there is no reason I know of to prohibit them either.

Lots of people can and do take illegal actions to care for their loved ones since this insane culture we live in puts the value of money above the value of life.
 
Now YOU are the one mixing subjects, incest causes physical harm to the children often enough that it is illegal. .

Two brothers or two sisters can not create children any more than two non related men or women. There is no reason they should be out of the loop in this. Angelina Jolie is the only one I know who openly “liked” her brother in that way. I think for most people it would be about benefits. And I can assure you it WILL get to that level if we keep moving the marker.
 
Marriage is in declince in lots of places and it has nothing to do with drugs or gays. I'd like to see some stats on your claim that a "huge percent" of the population is addicted to heroin. Oregon has groups that pick up garbage too, we clean up hypodermic needles at the sites we service all the time--legality isn't the issue. We need to make a world that people want to LIVE IN rather than ESCAPE FROM.

Below is an article that shows marriage ( all types ) in Amsterdam on decline

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/livestro200406290924.asp

I couldn’t find the first news report I read about Heroin addiction in Amsterdam but I found another. But the numbers only show registered users. Ill keep looking for the first news report I read.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1446673&blobtype=pdf
 
Below is an article that shows marriage ( all types ) in Amsterdam on decline

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/livestro200406290924.asp

I couldn’t find the first news report I read about Heroin addiction in Amsterdam but I found another. But the numbers only show registered users. Ill keep looking for the first news report I read.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1446673&blobtype=pdf

I guess I don't understand why you are upset about a decline in marriages when you openly advocate taking away all legal and official sanctions--maybe people are just doing it without government license and therefore there are declining stats. As far as I know there are no official church records compiled and published on the number of marriages.
 
I guess I don't understand why you are upset about a decline in marriages when you openly advocate taking away all legal and official sanctions--maybe people are just doing it without government license and therefore there are declining stats. As far as I know there are no official church records compiled and published on the number of marriages.

Oh I am sorry if I lead you to think I was upset about it. I am not upset at all. I was just stating something I have read.
 
Below is an article that shows marriage ( all types ) in Amsterdam on decline

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/livestro200406290924.asp

I couldn’t find the first news report I read about Heroin addiction in Amsterdam but I found another. But the numbers only show registered users. Ill keep looking for the first news report I read.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1446673&blobtype=pdf

Here's some info about drug use in Holland vs. the USA:

Social Indicator Comparison Year USA Netherlands
Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 36.9% 1 17.0% 2
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 5.4% 1 3.0% 2
Lifetime prevalence of heroin use (ages 12+) 2001 1.4% 1 0.4% 2
Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population 2002 701 3 100 4
Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998 €379 5 €223 5
Homicide rate per 100,000 population Average 1999-2001 5.56 6 1.51 6

Copyingand pasting may lead to some formatting problems, but the whole article can be found here:

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
 
PLC, in the Netherlands people are probably more happy to admit to using the stuff to people - in the USA it will be disproportionatly lower.
 
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Maybe a marriage is a basis for any resulting children to feel stability. Maybe it should be between a man and a woman so that whatever sex the kid turns out to be, there is a parent who understands what it means to be that sex and can give guidance in a way that someone who has never experienced the unique situations of the other sex couldn't possibly understand the same way. I think that a child needs to be exposed to both sexes at home. I must say however, that I don't think I have ever known a child from a same sex home, so everything here is just conjecture, personal preferences for the raising of my own child, and not meant to be judgemental.
 
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