GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
What do you think the cause was for 9/11?We should have gone into Afganistan and Pakistan with a genuine multi national force, which would have been quite possible after 911 and before the invasion of Iraq, rooted out Bin Laden and his fellow cockroaches, and gone home. I've posted the above many times.
I think the problem is the ideology (not the religion) they ascribe to and its not limited to just OBL and his following, much less only present in two countries. We are simply chasing our tail by going after the symptoms and worrying too much about Political Correctness to crush the actual disease.
Do you honestly believe that simply crushing OBL and his followers in those two countries would have been the end of our problems with those who seek to carry out terrorist attacks on our country? If not... then what's the end game... Are you just looking to play defense so that when we engage the enemy we have world opinion on our side?The whole thing should be over by now, with the planners and chiefs of the terrorist attack either dead or (preferably) behind bars.
What else, besides torture, would qualify as descending to the level of the enemy? I mean, how do you decide which actions we take as being on their level? They torture, therefore if we torture we've lowered ourselves to their level or what?Officially sanctioning waterboarding would have been descending to the level of the perpetrators, yes, even if there had been no other form of torture.
How can "no one know" the information that you later claim is 'known'?No one knows how many were tortured, nor how much of the torture was water boarding and how much was something else. What is known is that there was a lot more going on than water boarding three known terrorists.
It sounds like your suggesting that the absence of evidence to support your conclusion is somehow proof that your conclusion is correct or that the proof needed to support your conclusion is known, it just has not been made public.
I want names... Are you including me in the "Pro-Torture" category? As I have said repeatedly, I am against torture but I disagree that waterboarding (as we carried it out) qualified as torture.There have been several, but all of them seem to subscribe to the unsustainable argument that waterboarding was the only form of torture, and that only a few known terrorists were water boarded.
In the accepted Geneva Convention definition (concept) of torture, the question of intent plays a large role in deciding what is and is not torture. Does intent matter to you in determining what is torture?My position is what it has always been: Having compromised our values and engaged in torture was reprehensible and counterproductive in the war on terror. And yes, water boarding has been torture ever since Torquemada perfected the technique hundreds of years ago.
That is patently false, as Big Rob has pointed out repeatedly. According to the Geneva Convention, the only existing category they would have fit into was "Unlawful Combatant", whereupon they were due NO rights and could have been executed without so much as a trial.The legality of mistreatment of prisoners was based on labeling them with a new term that meant that they had no rights.
You said you would have gone to war... Even if we had not "sanctioned torture", are you suggesting that incidents like Abu-Ghraib would not have taken place? If you admit such incidents would happen anyway, how can you support going to war if it will only result in torture?Whether or not Bush et. al. sanctioned said torture or not, what happened was a direct result of having decided to start a war in the first place.