What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?

We should have gone into Afganistan and Pakistan with a genuine multi national force, which would have been quite possible after 911 and before the invasion of Iraq, rooted out Bin Laden and his fellow cockroaches, and gone home. I've posted the above many times.
What do you think the cause was for 9/11?

I think the problem is the ideology (not the religion) they ascribe to and its not limited to just OBL and his following, much less only present in two countries. We are simply chasing our tail by going after the symptoms and worrying too much about Political Correctness to crush the actual disease.

The whole thing should be over by now, with the planners and chiefs of the terrorist attack either dead or (preferably) behind bars.
Do you honestly believe that simply crushing OBL and his followers in those two countries would have been the end of our problems with those who seek to carry out terrorist attacks on our country? If not... then what's the end game... Are you just looking to play defense so that when we engage the enemy we have world opinion on our side?

Officially sanctioning waterboarding would have been descending to the level of the perpetrators, yes, even if there had been no other form of torture.
What else, besides torture, would qualify as descending to the level of the enemy? I mean, how do you decide which actions we take as being on their level? They torture, therefore if we torture we've lowered ourselves to their level or what?

No one knows how many were tortured, nor how much of the torture was water boarding and how much was something else. What is known is that there was a lot more going on than water boarding three known terrorists.
How can "no one know" the information that you later claim is 'known'?

It sounds like your suggesting that the absence of evidence to support your conclusion is somehow proof that your conclusion is correct or that the proof needed to support your conclusion is known, it just has not been made public.

There have been several, but all of them seem to subscribe to the unsustainable argument that waterboarding was the only form of torture, and that only a few known terrorists were water boarded.
I want names... Are you including me in the "Pro-Torture" category? As I have said repeatedly, I am against torture but I disagree that waterboarding (as we carried it out) qualified as torture.

My position is what it has always been: Having compromised our values and engaged in torture was reprehensible and counterproductive in the war on terror. And yes, water boarding has been torture ever since Torquemada perfected the technique hundreds of years ago.
In the accepted Geneva Convention definition (concept) of torture, the question of intent plays a large role in deciding what is and is not torture. Does intent matter to you in determining what is torture?

The legality of mistreatment of prisoners was based on labeling them with a new term that meant that they had no rights.
That is patently false, as Big Rob has pointed out repeatedly. According to the Geneva Convention, the only existing category they would have fit into was "Unlawful Combatant", whereupon they were due NO rights and could have been executed without so much as a trial.

Whether or not Bush et. al. sanctioned said torture or not, what happened was a direct result of having decided to start a war in the first place.
You said you would have gone to war... Even if we had not "sanctioned torture", are you suggesting that incidents like Abu-Ghraib would not have taken place? If you admit such incidents would happen anyway, how can you support going to war if it will only result in torture?
 
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But Gen others go out of their way to do blatant personal attacks, actually that is all they do and they are still here. I am not sure if that is accurate advice.

'Tis alright. I expect many attacks from liberals and Jews in here, not to mention anyone here who is not White. I welcome such attacks, for all it does is prove my point about such people. Let them attack all they wish.
 

'Tis alright. I expect many attacks from liberals and Jews in here, not to mention anyone here who is not White. I welcome such attacks, for all it does is prove my point about such people. Let them attack all they wish.

You dont like Jewish people ? :(

I do. Can I ask what your religion is if any ?

I am not white really, I am mostly Native American but I won't be mean to you :) I promise
 
What do you think the cause was for 9/11?

I think the problem is the ideology (not the religion) they ascribe to and its not limited to just OBL and his following, much less only present in two countries. We are simply chasing our tail by going after the symptoms and worrying too much about Political Correctness to crush the actual disease.

Yes, it was the ideology of Al Qaeda, along with a human propensity for blaming others for our own problems. The US, the nation of infidels, the Great Satan, is seen by them and their ilk as the cause for problems in the ME, hence the attack. Of course, it exists in more than two countries.

It is also a threat to the nations of the Middle East.

Do you honestly believe that simply crushing OBL and his followers in those two countries would have been the end of our problems with those who seek to carry out terrorist attacks on our country? If not... then what's the end game... Are you just looking to play defense so that when we engage the enemy we have world opinion on our side?

The end of our problems? There will be no end of our problems as long as we have to stay in the Middle East. Problems there have been festering since the crusades, for heavens sake. Having invaded Iraq, then stayed in Afganistan, having engaged in nation building in those nations, has not been the end of our problems in the ME either, has it?

What else, besides torture, would qualify as descending to the level of the enemy? I mean, how do you decide which actions we take as being on their level? They torture, therefore if we torture we've lowered ourselves to their level or what?

Deliberately targeting civilians, engaging in terror by slaughtering innocents, that would have qualified. I'm not convinced we did that, thank goodness.


How can "no one know" the information that you later claim is 'known'?

We may not know specifically how many were waterboarded, but we do know that torture did not end there.

It sounds like your suggesting that the absence of evidence to support your conclusion is somehow proof that your conclusion is correct or that the proof needed to support your conclusion is known, it just has not been made public.


I want names... Are you including me in the "Pro-Torture" category? As I have said repeatedly, I am against torture but I disagree that waterboarding (as we carried it out) qualified as torture.

I think the argument boils down to two things:
(1) Is waterboarding torture? I say yes, you say no. To me, supporting waterboarding is supporting torture. To you, obviously it isn't.

(2) Did the US engage in other acts of torture? That one is more difficult. Of course, soldiers representing the United States did engage in the torture of prisoners that went way beyond waterboarding. To me, that amounts to the US engaging in torture, whether or not said torture was sanctioned by the government. Further, believing without proof that those actions were simply criminal acts by people operating outside of the chain of command takes more faith in government than I have. Maybe the beating and hanging of prisoners from the ceiling was a non sanctioned set of criminal acts. I'm not convinced that it was, but maybe. Regardless, those actions were taken by people wearing the uniform of the United States of America.

That much is undeniable, and inexcusable, and sounds a great deal like the US engaging in torture.


In the accepted Geneva Convention definition (concept) of torture, the question of intent plays a large role in deciding what is and is not torture. Does intent matter to you in determining what is torture?

Was the intent of waterboarding to cool off prisoners subjected to the desert heat? Was the intent of beating and hanging prisoners from the ceiling to improve their health?

The only way to justify waterboarding is to use an ends justifies the means sort of argument.

There is no justification for beating or other torture that was done.

That is patently false, as Big Rob has pointed out repeatedly. According to the Geneva Convention, the only existing category they would have fit into was "Unlawful Combatant", whereupon they were due NO rights and could have been executed without so much as a trial.

I thought the term invented was "enemy combatant", not "unlawful combatant." Regardless of what we chose to call them, it is still no different from justifying slavery by calling the slaves a name that implied that they were less than human. For the nation founded on the belief that all men are created equal to have used either term in that way is reprehensible. We are better than that, and should act better than that.

You said you would have gone to war... Even if we had not "sanctioned torture", are you suggesting that incidents like Abu-Ghraib would not have taken place? If you admit such incidents would happen anyway, how can you support going to war if it will only result in torture?

I would not have invaded Iraq, no way. That was the biggest mistake since the war in Vietnam.

A quick surgical strike into Afganistan and Pakistan in order to corral Bin Laden and his cohorts would have been very unlikely to have created the atmosphere that led to Abu Ghraib, or to Gitmo. The strike in Kuwait didn't create such problems, did it? It was a limited strike with a specific goal, and an exit strategy that worked. The invasion of Iraq was none of those things.
 
You dont like Jewish people ? :(

I do. Can I ask what your religion is if any ?

I am not white really, I am mostly Native American but I won't be mean to you :) I promise

No, I do not, as is my right.

I have no religion, for I am an atheist. I seek the destruction of all religion.

Native American? Well, thanks for the land.
 
Yes, it was the ideology of Al Qaeda..
What do you think we should do to fight that ideology? And please, for the love of all that's holy, do not simply say "work with the other nations of the world" because we've already established they will work their gums dry denouncing this or that and passing non binding resolutions but refuse to use force unless we act first.

The end of our problems?
As far as dealing with the relatively new phenomenon of terrorism, would simply taking out OBL and his crew have put an end to that problem?

Deliberately targeting civilians, engaging in terror by slaughtering innocents, that would have qualified.
Wait... Deliberately targeting civilians qualifies? Then please explain why it didn't qualify when that was our strategy in WWII against an enemy with the same deliberate strategy.

We may not know specifically how many were waterboarded, but we do know that torture did not end there.
I want facts and sources. None of this non sanctioned Abu Ghraib shat either, if you're going to say we went far beyond waterboarding terror suspects as national policy, then I want to see proof.

I think the argument boils down to two things:
(1) Is waterboarding torture? I say yes, you say no. To me, supporting waterboarding is supporting torture. To you, obviously it isn't.
To me supporting waterboarding is supporting waterboarding, its ONE specific technique that we employed. Torture is not ONE specific technique or action, it covers a LOT of ground. So you can count me in the Pro-Waterboarding crowd but its totally disingenuous to claim that I'm Pro-Torture.

(2) Did the US engage in other acts of torture?
Acts sanctioned by government as a matter of national policy are all I'm interested in hearing about. Bringing up Abu Ghraib just muddies the waters of a very specific inquiry. If you have proof that we did more than waterboard as national policy, I do want to see that proof.

Further, believing without proof that those actions were simply criminal acts by people operating outside of the chain of command takes more faith in government than I have.
You may as well be asking someone to prove that God doesn't exist. You cannot prove a negative. In order to rationally believe that such actions as the ones described were done as national policy, you need proof. Belief without proof is not skepticism, its conspiratorial.

Regardless, those actions were taken by people wearing the uniform of the United States of America.
They certainly shamed more than just those wearing the uniform with their actions too.

Was the intent of waterboarding to cool off prisoners subjected to the desert heat?
You did not directly answer my question but I'm guessing no, you don't think intent matters. The GC and International Law recognize intent as having a bearing on what is, and is not, torture. Are they wrong to take that into consideration?

I thought the term invented was "enemy combatant", not "unlawful combatant."
You are correct. We created the term "enemy combatant" in order to legally try them in military tribunals and extend otherwise humanitarian considerations that we were NOT legally bound to grant them as "Unlawful Combatants" under the Geneva Convention. Following the GC and NOT inventing the new term, the 'unlawful combatants' could be legally executed without a trial and given no humanitarian considerations.

Regardless of what we chose to call them, it is still no different from justifying slavery by calling the slaves a name that implied that they were less than human. For the nation founded on the belief that all men are created equal to have used either term in that way is reprehensible. We are better than that, and should act better than that.
The GC stated what we were allowed to legally do to them, anything we wanted. We chose to be better than that and crafted the new designation in order to grant them rights they would not have had if we followed the GC.

A quick surgical strike into Afganistan and Pakistan in order to corral Bin Laden and his cohorts would have been very unlikely to have created the atmosphere that led to Abu Ghraib, or to Gitmo.
I think you're living in a fantasy world if you think a quick surgical strike could have taken out OBL and his crew.

The strike in Kuwait didn't create such problems, did it? It was a limited strike with a specific goal, and an exit strategy that worked.
We fought an actual army in Kuwait, complete with uniformed soldiers and marked military vehicles... Apples and Oranges my friend.
 
I have no religion, for I am an atheist. I seek the destruction of all religion.

You are an Anti-Theist. Atheists do not seek the destruction of all religion and its only because Anti-Theists call themselves Atheists that Atheists are thought to be religiously intolerant bigots.

Other than that, we are getting off topic in this thread but if you would like to discuss Anti-Theism vs. Atheism, then please feel free to do so in my Anti-Theism in America thread.
 
You are an Anti-Theist. Atheists do not seek the destruction of all religion and its only because Anti-Theists call themselves Atheists that Atheists are thought to be religiously intolerant bigots.

Other than that, we are getting off topic in this thread but if you would like to discuss Anti-Theism vs. Atheism, then please feel free to do so in my Anti-Theism in America thread.

a⋅the⋅ist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Antitheist
An`ti*the"ist\, n. A disbeliever in the existence of God.

You were saying?? You may go now.
 
Yes, you have the right

destruction of all religon ? :eek:

Was never my land but you are welcome :)

OK, no offense but I hope you dont become president of Canada :p

*ROTFLMAO @ a 'President' in Canada* Bwaaaaahhhaaaaaaaa.
 
Great thread Gen but none of them will give a serious reply. OH of course all of them will chime in that they should have Miranda rights and constitutional rights but none of them who are against what has been done will come out and say what they think should be done because they know how stupid it will sound.

They should get a firm talking to
We should be able to raise our voice

thats about all they are willing to agree to and they will know just how frakin stupid it sounds so they will just rant about the rights violations and what they are against.

Except for shaman who might tell you about the stock market :)
Yeah....that's what'll happen........

:rolleyes:
 
Waterboarding as Torture in U.S. Law

The former Bush/Cheney administration and its apologists in the media continue to claim that it is an open question as to whether “waterboarding” (immobilizing a person, pouring water over his/her face and breathing passages, suffocating him/her and leading him/her to believe he/she will die) is torture and forbidden in U.S. law. The question is ridiculous.

• Waterboarding (as it is now called) is one of the oldest known forms of torture. In the 1500s it was used in the Spanish Inquisition.
• In 1898, an American soldier (Captain Edwin F. Glenn) used the technique (then called the “water cure”) on a prisoner captured in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. When reported, Americans were shocked and protests led to Elihu Root, U.S. Secretary of War (now called Secretary of Defense) ordered Glenn court-martialed in 1902 and imprisoned. A general under whose command this and other tortures occurred was court-martialed and removed from the army.
• During WWII, both the Gestapo and some Japanese soldiers used waterboarding as a form of torture. The Japanese were tried after the war and at least one hung by U.S. forces for waterboarding U.S. Airman Chase J. Nielsen.
• Waterboarding was declared illegal by U.S. generals during the Vietnam War. When a journalist photgraphed an American soldier helping two South Vietnamese soldiers waterboard a captured North Vietnames soldier, and published in the Washington Post in 1968, it caused outrage across the United States. The soldier was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the U.S. army.
• In 1983, Texas sheriff James Parker was sentenced to ten years in prison and his deputies to four years apiece for waterboarding prisoners. When his case came up for clemency years later, then Gov. George W. Bush refused to pardon Sheriff Parker, specifically stating that no one is above the law.
In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment, or Punishment of 1984. It was ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1994. Since the U.S. Constitution classifies all treaties that the U.S. signs and ratifies as sharing the Constitution’s status as “highest law of the land,” then the U.S. must follow the Convention Against Torture’s provisions, including those which demand prosecution of those who authorize and those who implement torture. It also forbids the U.S. to ship people to other countries that practice torture (”rendition”) and the Bush administration was guilty of that, also.

The reluctance of the Obama administration to try those responsible is rooted in several factors:

• Such trials would be highly controversial. The Washington Post published a poll today showing that Americans are about evenly divided over whether or not to have such trials. Although law enforcement is not decided by popularity, the Obama administration has to pass many pieces of legislation that will take all the public support he can muster.
• The Republicans have already hinted that if the Obama administration tries anyone in the Bush administration, they will consider it “engaging in criminalizing policy differences” and they will investigate Democratic administrations when they get back in power.

But the consequences of refusing to try these cases could be even worse:

• Members of the Bush administration could be indicted by the International Criminal Court or by the courts of other nations under the “global jurisdiction” where human rights violations are concerned. This would put the Obama administration in the awkward position of either arresting and extraditing former Bush officials, including, maybe the former president himself or of defying international law. If nothing else came of that, it would, at the very least, impede Obama’s attempts to rebuild America’s alliances abroad. It also undermines his attempts to re-set our relations with the Muslim world.
• Failing to prosecute violaters of human rights, no matter how highly placed, invites human rights abuses on Americans traveling abroad, whether civilian or military.
• If members of the Bush administration travel abroad, they could be arrested and prosecuted by others with potential for a huge international incident.
• Failure to prosecute violaters of human rights in the Bush administration makes it likely that a future administration will repeat these practices. In fact, by calling them “policy differences” GOP torture apologists are already hinting that they will restart torture when their party wins the White House, again. And their horror at the release of the torture memos as “exposing to our enemies the limits of American practices” seem to indicate they will try other practices in their place (electric shock to the genitals? bamboo shoots under fingernails? ).

Not too long ago (before 11 Sept. 2001), this was not controversial. No one argued for the U.S. using torturing. Nor did anyone argue that “enhanced interrogation techniques” were not really torture. This was not a liberal vs. conservative, left vs. right, or Democratic vs. Republican issue. So, the current debate means that America has lost its way morally. To that extent, the use of these torture techniques by the Bush administration and the fact that Americans find the use of torture or prosecution of torturers controversial, means that the terrorists have won-at least in part. Trying torturers, no matter who they are, is necessary for us to regain some degree of moral clarity.

http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/waterboarding-as-torture-in
 
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I guess you coulld call this The DICK; Cheney's WORST NIGHTMARE!!!!!

(Yeah....we're allowed to see what was done, IN OUR NAME....once, again.)

bush%20frustrated-thumb.jpg
 
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