US Becoming Pro-Life

[pocketfullofshells]

OK fair enough, but when does the soul enter the body?

I read yours and Gens posts but I never see you say where you think the limit is. That is probably why I keep asking.

See, I will agree with you that the soul makes us people but I do think the soul comes at conception. I have no way to prove it either but its what I think. When do you think we get a soul?

if you cant prove it, you realy think that puts you in a position to tell others when? and make law based on it? of course first that asumes you can prove a soul in the first place.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

If it is then we can off everyone of those freaks who think they are from another planet or part of star trek, every person with a low IQ, is that why it was ok to starve Terri Schiavo to death?

OMG...I was hoping that this wasn't going to get drug into another topic about "US BECOMING PRO-LIFE"...yet here it is. A desperate grasping at straws mentality and a weak arsed way of pulling a 'brain dead' {pun intended} argument into the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice argument. GOOD GRIEF

If you believe that life begins when the sperm enters the egg...then ergo wouldn't the entire plethora of 'BIRTH CONTROL' be a form of abortion in your mind-set/style/type of thought process???

I mean any form of birth control keeps the natural process of reproduction from occurring and then in that same thought process anything that a man or woman does is 'Abortion' to the natural state of egg fertilization...Hmm

Interesting how the 'Pro-Life' seems to duck and dodge that thought.

But as I've asked my vegan friends...when you eat eggs for your protein aren't you in fact eating a chicken??? And from the 'PRO-CHOICE' vegan's...I get all of the "one doesn't have anything to do with the other" comments.

But it is interesting then to argue...since a sperm is actively moving isn't it alive...and a women's egg is only generated for one thing and one thing only...life, so isn't that egg alive and viable. So how and when do you want to start playing GOD with another humans right to say what goes on within their own body??? Should we be allowing men to have the big 'V', should women be allowed to have a tubaligation???

 

[Pandora]

OMG...I was hoping that this wasn't going to get drug into another topic about "US BECOMING PRO-LIFE"...yet here it is. A desperate grasping at straws mentality and a weak arsed way of pulling a 'brain dead' {pun intended} argument into the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice argument. GOOD GRIEF

If you believe that life begins when the sperm enters the egg...then ergo wouldn't the entire plethora of 'BIRTH CONTROL' be a form of abortion in your mind-set/style/type of thought process???

I mean any form of birth control keeps the natural process of reproduction from occurring and then in that same thought process anything that a man or woman does is 'Abortion' to the natural state of egg fertilization...Hmm

Interesting how the 'Pro-Life' seems to duck and dodge that thought.

But as I've asked my vegan friends...when you eat eggs for your protein aren't you in fact eating a chicken??? And from the 'PRO-CHOICE' vegan's...I get all of the "one doesn't have anything to do with the other" comments.

But it is interesting then to argue...since a sperm is actively moving isn't it alive...and a women's egg is only generated for one thing and one thing only...life, so isn't that egg alive and viable. So how and when do you want to start playing GOD with another humans right to say what goes on within their own body??? Should we be allowing men to have the big 'V', should women be allowed to have a tubaligation???

Nothing here makes any sense or is worth replying to except your vegan friends. Vegans are not vegetarians. Vegetarians still eat eggs and cheese and milk, vegans do not eat any animal product at all. So your friends should stop calling themselves vegans or stop eating eggs for protein. Also a non fertilized egg has zero chance of ever becoming a chicken; it takes a rooster to fertilize that egg. And no, I don’t think its wrong or a type of abortion to not buy a rooster for your egg farm.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Nothing here makes any sense or is worth replying to except your vegan friends. Vegans are not vegetarians. Vegetarians still eat eggs and cheese and milk, vegans do not eat any animal product at all. So your friends should stop calling themselves vegans or stop eating eggs for protein. Also a non fertilized egg has zero chance of ever becoming a chicken; it takes a rooster to fertilize that egg. And no, I don’t think its wrong or a type of abortion to not buy a rooster for your egg farm.

Of course you would say that it doesn't make any sense...because you can't argue the insanity of your own "when does life begin B.S." when it is tossed right back at you!!! But you managed to drag the Terry Schiavo name into this "US Becoming Pro-Life" topic like you had a thought process to stand on...LMAO

You derail the subject and then sit astride your 'ivory tower' and dictate the way in which the discussion goes...RIGHT...ol mighty topic derailer...I bow to your superior ability to obfuscate the topic!!! YOU ARE SUPREME...LOL

 

[Pandora]

Of course you would say that it doesn't make any sense...because you can't argue the insanity of your own "when does life begin B.S." when it is tossed right back at you!!! But you managed to drag the Terry Schiavo name into this "US Becoming Pro-Life" topic like you had a thought process to stand on...LMAO

You derail the subject and then sit astride your 'ivory tower' and dictate the way in which the discussion goes...RIGHT...ol mighty topic derailer...I bow to your superior ability to obfuscate the topic!!! YOU ARE SUPREME...LOL

I wish you could just talk. All you seem to do is throw personal insults.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I wish you could just talk. All you seem to do is throw personal insults.

Oh, but I did all 'supreme being' and you throughly dismissed my talking points as:

Nothing here makes any sense or is worth replying to except your vegan friends

So since you anointed yourself as the 'supreme one' you can just ignore my posts and then you'll have no one else to 'TALK DOWN TOO'...LMAO

You really are all that and the 'big bag of chips too'...WOW

 

[GenSeneca]

So how and when do you want to start playing GOD with another humans right to say what goes on within their own body???

ASPCA, Do you think its a womans right to have an abortion in her 9th month? How bout her 8th? 7th? 6th?

If you find a point where you consider the abortion of her unborn child to be unacceptable, then you are also 'playing God' with her right to choose. After all, what gives you the right to tell a woman she cannot abort her child in the 9th month of pregnancy, or even minutes before the child would be born naturally?

PLC,

Nobody disagrees that there is more to a human than DNA. Contend that all you like. Until you give me an example of a brain that exists without DNA, a mind that exists without DNA, until you can cite a sentient being that exists without DNA, or until you can offer proof of the existence of the soul, then I find your contention that 'there is more to humans than DNA', simply a rhetorical excercise intended to send the conversation in circles.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

ASPCA, Do you think its a womans right to have an abortion in her 9th month? How bout her 8th? 7th? 6th?

If you find a point where you consider the abortion of her unborn child to be unacceptable, then you are also 'playing God' with her right to choose. After all, what gives you the right to tell a woman she cannot abort her child in the 9th month of pregnancy, or even minutes before the child would be born naturally?
PLC,

Nobody disagrees that there is more to a human than DNA. Contend that all you like. Until you give me an example of a brain that exists without DNA, a mind that exists without DNA, until you can cite a sentient being that exists without DNA, or until you can offer proof of the existence of the soul, then I find your contention that 'there is more to humans than DNA', simply a rhetorical excercise intended to send the conversation in circles.

Boy, are you ever barking up the wrong tree...asking me that question...you might want to go back and re-read some of my posts about Abortion and this topic specifically!!! LOL Enjoy the reading...as Pandora is rolling off of her chair!!!

 

[samsara15]

The soul has no bearing on this issue since many of us do not believe there is such a thing. We all agree that an embryo / fetus is a clump of animal cells that do not have enough awareness to even realize that it is a human being. To make your case, you need to prove to those of us who are dubious that a fetus / embryo deserves equal treatment with a living, adult human female. That has not been done, as the comments here adequately demonstrate.

 

[Pandora]

The soul has no bearing on this issue since many of us do not believe there is such a thing. We all agree that an embryo / fetus is a clump of animal cells that do not have enough awareness to even realize that it is a human being. To make your case, you need to prove to those of us who are dubious that a fetus / embryo deserves equal treatment with a living, adult human female. That has not been done, as the comments here adequately demonstrate.

Well a soul could have bearing on the issue if the debate was between two people who both believed in a soul and that we have one. PLC1 and I both believe that we have a soul; we just disagree when we get it. That same issue would have no bearing in a discussion between you and someone who believed in a soul or you and another person who did not believe in a soul.

Everyone comes to their own conclusions as to why they lean one way or another on any given topic. Sometimes it boils down to something like a soul and when it comes.

It is not a point I would use in a regular abortion debate but PLC1 brought it up so I am curious as to when he thinks we get it. Today on a local talk show the point came up a soul would come with the first breath. I found that interesting.

A woman in my state targeted another woman on Craig’s list who was about to deliver her baby. Killed the woman and cut her baby out of her. The baby died and the woman called 911 trying to get help for the baby. There is a huge debate here on if the woman should be charged with two murders like the Stacy and Conner Peterson case in California. The state is trying to find out if the baby breathed a breath. If it did, the woman is going to be charged with two murders, if it didn’t then the baby was not a person even though it was within a week till his due date. I find that odd.



Now that I think of it, the baby having to have breathed a breath to be considered a human might be the idea behind partial birth abortion. If you can kill the baby before the head comes out, you have killed it before it breathed its first breath…thus offing it before it had a chance to become human.

I always wondered why every part of the baby can come out but the head and its ok to kill it even if its perfectly viable, this would answer that question for me.

 

[GenSeneca]

you might want to go back and re-read some of my posts about Abortion and this topic specifically!!!

I did just that:

For me; What goes on between a woman and her doctor isn't anyone business but hers and the doctor, call it what ever makes you happiest!

It would appear you do not have a problem with a woman having an abortion even moments before she would otherwise give birth: At any time, for any reason.

Here's another question for you:

Does the father of the child have any rights or say in the decision to abort?

If you don't think the father has any rights prior to the birth of the child, do you think he should be responsible (financially or otherwise) for the child once its born?

 

[GenSeneca]

The soul has no bearing on this issue since many of us do not believe there is such a thing.

I agree. That is why I had asked to keep such theological and philosophical concerns out of the conversation. There is no way to empirically qualify such considerations.

We all agree that an embryo / fetus is a clump of animal cells that do not have enough awareness to even realize that it is a human being.

We don't all agree. By the 8th day, that "clump of animal cells" has begun developing kidneys, thyroid tissue, a spine begins to appear as grooves, and neural tubes (brain matter) can be distinguished. Its also in this second week (day 8 to 14) that blood begins circulating.

As for self awareness, please cite the specific scientific process by which we can empirically measure when an individual becomes self aware. If no such process exists, then we must toss that concern in with the concerns over the soul and other philosophical and theological questions that cannot be accurately, and scientifically, quantified or empirically proven.

We all agree that an embryo / fetus is a clump of animal cells that do not have enough awareness to even realize that it is a human being.

There are adults, and even children, who fall in the same category, those who are not self aware... do they have a right to life?

To make your case, you need to prove to those of us who are dubious that a fetus / embryo deserves equal treatment with a living, adult human female.

You see an adult and a "clump of animal cells" and its from that concept that you assign them each their value.

I see two individuals, at different stages of life, and I value the rights of all individuals.

No one has even attempted to refute my "case" as you call it:

1. A sperm is alive.

2. It combines with a living egg.

3. The resultant fertilized egg is alive.

4. The fertilized egg has a DNA unique to both its parents.

5. Biologically, the fertilized egg is a living individual.

I have thus made my case and so far, none have been able to prove either my premises, or my conclusions, to be false. To dispute any of the above requires considerations of theological and philosophical concerns, which cannot be scientifically measured, proven, or otherwise quantified and, instead, fall into the category of personal opinion.

That has not been done, as the comments here adequately demonstrate.

Its not my objective to convince you of anything. Merely stating my position and my understanding of the issue. You have your own position and you're not interested in anything anyone else has to say that doesn't support your conclusions, so any attempt on my part to convince you that I am correct would be futile. It takes an open mind to be convinced.

[Side Note] Nobody has convinced me that Humans are responsible for climate change, and there has certainly been no attempt to convince me that the proposed measures to fight said climate change will have the promised effects but nevertheless, the believers are forcing their views upon me through the power of the state. [Side Note]

 

[samsara15]

Then you should be thinking about how to open the mind that differs from your POV, instead of giving your OWN closed mind conclusions, or castigating the other POV. Or thinking about why the other person's mind is closed to your POV. There are many avenues.

 

[PLC1]

OK fair enough, but when does the soul enter the body?

I read yours and Gens posts but I never see you say where you think the limit is. That is probably why I keep asking.

See, I will agree with you that the soul makes us people but I do think the soul comes at conception. I have no way to prove it either but its what I think. When do you think we get a soul?

Since there is no way to prove that there is such a thing as a soul, it becomes a religious or philosophical belief. As such, there is no way to know just when the soul enters the body.

I really don't think it happens at conception. How can a soul inhabit a blob of jelly? I think that the soul waits until the body is more complete. Maybe it doesn't happen until birth. There just is no way to know.

Personally, I think that the beginning of consciousness and the entry of the soul coincide, that the one most likely causes the other.

But, of course, I can't prove that.

 

[Pandora]

Since there is no way to prove that there is such a thing as a soul, it becomes a religious or philosophical belief. As such, there is no way to know just when the soul enters the body.

I really don't think it happens at conception. How can a soul inhabit a blob of jelly? I think that the soul waits until the body is more complete. Maybe it doesn't happen until birth. There just is no way to know.

Personally, I think that the beginning of consciousness and the entry of the soul coincide, that the one most likely causes the other.

But, of course, I can't prove that.

I have always thought of a soul as the part of you that has you’re personality. What makes you different from your brother or parent exc. I remember I was 5 months pregnant with my son when I got my first ultra sound and he was sucking his thumb and kicking his feet. To me he was expressing his personality. Though I have no way to prove it, its my personal feelings.

In the first two months the baby in a womb has a heart, lungs exc. its more than a blob of jelly.


You know in all these posts that you and I have exchanged and you have exchanged with Gen I have read where you think its ok to have an abortion but I have never read where you draw the line. Maybe you don’t have a line.

Ill tell you where I draw the line, please tell me where you draw the line.


I dislike abortion for any reason except if being pregnant will kill the mother or host as they say, but I am not going to argue about a person having an abortion in the first 3 months unless the person brags that they do it as a means of birth control. Then I don’t mind going on my usual rant.

I draw the line at partial birth abortion at 5/6 months as reasonable and only if continuing the pregnancy would kill the woman. If a woman is 7 months pregnant or more then the baby is perfectly viable, and the woman should have induced labor or c-section and let the child be adopted out if they really don’t want the baby.

A 5 or 6 month baby would never or at least almost never be viable so if a woman would literally die carrying the baby any longer than the 5 or 6 months as sad as it is, the abortion would be necessary.

Though I would say instead of partially birthing it then stabbing it in the back of the head they should at least kill it as pain free and humane as we do our pets.

When if ever do you draw the line on abortions?