Understanding the Enemy

[vyo476]

(1.) civilians by day, fighters by night is common Islam, they don't wear military uniforms

This is a common guerilla tactic. Please point out where in the Qu'ran it states that Muslims should be guerilla fighters.

(2.) this isn't a small group of crazies against us

No, there are plenty of them. But when compared with the total number of Muslims in the world, the number of them that are terrorists is small - by comparison. This is a concept which you seem incapable of grasping.

(3.) the enemy shares the basic brotherhood of Islamic theology, kill non-muslims.

The enemy shares an interpretation of Islamic theology.

 

[heyjude]

The Christians of today are way too sophisticated to go on tv and encourage Christians to kill Muslims for Jesus. The all too Christian military is doing so anyway. And the Muslims in the ME know exactly who is killing them. They do not see soldiers from the US. They see Christians from the US. So do I. I don't believe we would be in Iraq and Afghanistan if Bush were not a born again Christian. They can justify anything in Jesus' name.

 

[Castle]

take a look at the list of Islamic terrorist acts post-911 and stand it side-by-side to Christian acts of terrorism.
www.thereligionofpeace.com

this is a common mistake many Americans make, believing that comparing Christianity and Islam makes any difference in explaining todays daily acts of terrorism and hate towards America and the West.

Indeed my point exactly. It is astonishing that this is so often purposefully overlooked in favor of a lopsided viciousness toward all things Christian. Of course, I'm sure that most of us do understand the political force that drives this.

 

[Castle]

As I have now read down through heyjude's and vyo476's last comments... my previous points are made crystal clear. It's just so easy to justify the Islamic blood lust against the west by the mere accusation that Christianity drives the war against Islamic terrorism or that Islam just needs to be allowed to "evolve". I personally enjoyed the latter attempt at justification. LMAO!

 

[vyo476]

As I have now read down through heyjude's and vyo476's last comments... my previous points are made crystal clear.

Maybe you read what I wrote, but I doubt you understood it.

It's just so easy to justify the Islamic blood lust against the west by the mere accusation that Christianity drives the war against Islamic terrorism or that Islam just needs to be allowed to "evolve". I personally enjoyed the latter attempt at justification. LMAO!

Christianity was allowed to evolve. You seem to think Christianity isn't so bad these days. I agree. Do you deny that it once was? Because if you do you might want to read up on the Spanish Inquisition, the Age of Religious Warfare, and the Crusades.

The fact of the matter is that at one point in history Christianity was just as jingoistic as any Islamic terrorist is today. Christianity, along with the rest of Western culture, changed. Islam does not deserve this same opportunity? Must we label it as "evil" because here and now people do evil things in its name?

They deserve the same choices we've had. They'll always deserve the same choices we've had, until they cross a certain line. 9/11 was such a line. Bin Laden crossed it, and we went after him. In my mind that was perfectly justifiable. Our continued interference in Middle Eastern nations, especially Iraq, where polls have shown for the last four years that Iraqis don't particularly like having us there. (Here's a link to what I'm talking about.)

 

[bewitched]

vyo... you could have easily found these proofs.
Keyword: Farfur, the Mickey Mouse of Lebanese TV
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/187685.aspx
there are clips on youtube that you can watch yourself.
Like this one where the daughter wants to be a suicide bomber like mom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM

Iran signs up suicide bombers
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4272

1/3 Saudis in Iraq
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/22/africa/22fighters.php

400 call for beheading of British teacher over Mohammed teddy bear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_teddy_bear_blasphemy_case
plus
mohammed cartoon madness
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/muhammad_cartoons_timeline.htm

but like many who choose to bury their head in the sand and make excuses and apologize for the muslims, this is quite typical.
there is a real risk with Islam right now that is a danger to every single person in the West. if you don't want to realize that and see the warning signs then that's your choice.

 

[bewitched]

They deserve the same choices we've had. They'll always deserve the same choices we've had, until they cross a certain line. 9/11 was such a line. Bin Laden crossed it, and we went after him. In my mind that was perfectly justifiable. Our continued interference in Middle Eastern nations, especially Iraq, where polls have shown for the last four years that Iraqis don't particularly like having us there. (Here's a link to what I'm talking about.)

who is "they"?
muslims deserve the same evolution as Christians? so some how they stopped in time and haven't evolved since the 1st century like everyone else? so we should all go back to the dark ages so Islam can catch up with the rest of the world? yeah, that's logical.

you aren't understanding that the borders in Islam are not recognized as the same borders we see as Westerners. there is no seperate countries in Islam, it is a whole. it's typical for most westerners to see independent countries when Islam itself does not see themselves as that.
the OIC is 57 Islamic countries in the Middle East, Africa, and southeast Asia. one brotherhood, one Islam. dar ul Islam.
everything else is dar ul Harb. if the west can understand this then we are safer from terrorism.

 

[Castle]

Maybe you read what I wrote, but I doubt you understood it.

Christianity was allowed to evolve. You seem to think Christianity isn't so bad these days. I agree. Do you deny that it once was? Because if you do you might want to read up on the Spanish Inquisition, the Age of Religious Warfare, and the Crusades.

The fact of the matter is that at one point in history Christianity was just as jingoistic as any Islamic terrorist is today. Christianity, along with the rest of Western culture, changed. Islam does not deserve this same opportunity? Must we label it as "evil" because here and now people do evil things in its name?

They deserve the same choices we've had. They'll always deserve the same choices we've had, until they cross a certain line. 9/11 was such a line. Bin Laden crossed it, and we went after him. In my mind that was perfectly justifiable. Our continued interference in Middle Eastern nations, especially Iraq, where polls have shown for the last four years that Iraqis don't particularly like having us there. (Here's a link to what I'm talking about.)

My apologies then. I mistakenly assumed that you stated in part that Christianity was allowed to evolve and Islam will evolve as well. Please correct my assumption.

While we are on the subject....exactly who allowed Christianity to evolve other than Christians and what choices did we (Christians) have that present day Islamic extremists deserve and do not presently have?

I agree that we are too involved in the Middle East at this point. It has cost us far too much money and far too many lives. I wish we could leave the Middle East to it's own path and allow it to make it's own choices. However, this is where, I am quite sure, we part company. They would also be held responsible for their actions and I don't mean years of UN finger pointing and pointless condemnation followed by halfhearted sanctions and eventually nation building.

 

[Coyote]

While we are on the subject....exactly who allowed Christianity to evolve other than Christians and what choices did we (Christians) have that present day Islamic extremists deserve and do not presently have?

What allowed Christianity to evolve was, in a large part - a growing recognition of the incredible damage continuous religious warfare had done to Europe through the ages, the advent of science and secularism over religion in the west and the deliberate distancing of religion from government and of the place religion held in the political sphere during the Enlightenment. It had less to do with the Christians themselves and more to do with a long, gradual trend towards secularism, the advent of representational government, prosperity, science and industrialization.

Islam has not yet had this large scale reform. Many of the countries in which Islam dominates are still caught in a pre-industrial mindset and medievil culture. Islam is currenty caught in a cultural battle with the West and with secularism. Many of those countries have made a jump from a tribal infrastructure to prosperous, oil rich nations (Saudi Arabia for example) in literally 3 generations. That is not long enough to change ingrained ways of thought and life.

 

[bewitched]

Islam has not yet had this large scale reform. Many of the countries in which Islam dominates are still caught in a pre-industrial mindset and medievil culture. Islam is currenty caught in a cultural battle with the West and with secularism. Many of those countries have made a jump from a tribal infrastructure to prosperous, oil rich nations (Saudi Arabia for example) in literally 3 generations. That is not long enough to change ingrained ways of thought and life.

that's still not an excuse to fly planes into the WTC.
and hate the West.
and behead Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg.

but hey, we'll just wait until they evolve and watch death and destruction because it's... only fair... because the Christians were so evil.

 

[vyo476]

My apologies then. I mistakenly assumed that you stated in part that Christianity was allowed to evolve and Islam will evolve as well. Please correct my assumption.

Actually, Islam is in the process of changing, but, like the Christian reformations that took Christianity from where it was in the Dark Ages to where it is today, this changing takes time.

While we are on the subject....exactly who allowed Christianity to evolve other than Christians and what choices did we (Christians) have that present day Islamic extremists deserve and do not presently have?

No one allowed Christianity to evolve per se because no one was in a position to truly stifle that evolution the way we are in regard to the Middle East. In other words, Christianity "evolved" from the inside - the way Islam has been doing and will continue to do if we don't quit sticking our noses in their business.

As for what choices they ALL should have (not just the extremists), self-determination is the first and most important that comes to mind.

I agree that we are too involved in the Middle East at this point. It has cost us far too much money and far too many lives. I wish we could leave the Middle East to it's own path and allow it to make it's own choices.

We agree on this.

However, this is where, I am quite sure, we part company. They would also be held responsible for their actions and I don't mean years of UN finger pointing and pointless condemnation followed by halfhearted sanctions and eventually nation building.

I guess I don't see why we part company there. I'm all for holding terrorists accountable for their actions. If the only way to get at the ones responsible is to invade, then yes, I'll get behind it (in my mind our invasion of Afghanistan was justified).

 

[vyo476]

that's still not an excuse to fly planes into the WTC.
and hate the West.
and behead Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg.

Someone put on his silly hat today.

That's not what Coyote is saying and that's not what I'm saying. We're not justifying terrorism. Neither of us believes they're justified in what they do; we just believe they have different reasons for doing it.

None of what we post is to excuse terrorism. Only to help explain it and the situation that has created it.

but hey, we'll just wait until they evolve and watch death and destruction because it's... only fair... because the Christians were so evil.

Once again with the silly hat. It is perfectly acceptable for us to retaliate against actual attacks and prepare to defend ourselves/ actually defend ourselves against future ones. We're not saying it isn't acceptable (heyjude might be, but we don't agree in that instance). We're only trying to get people see the situation for what it is.

PS, Sorry for speaking for you Coyote, if I made an incorrect assumption about your stance go ahead and let me know.

 

[bewitched]

Christianity "evolved" from the inside - the way Islam has been doing and will continue to do if we don't quit sticking our noses in their business.
.

Islam chose to evolve just the way it has evolved. seem to me that you think they will evolve to be just like the West. that would be against Islamic theology and not how they want to evolve. nor do they consider themselves un-evolved. they do however consider us un-evolved and pigs and dogs since we haven't taken the right path.

you seem to be assuming that Islam was some sort of lost civilization that was corrupted by the US and EU... that is just not the case.

 

[bewitched]

Someone put on his silly hat today.

That's not what Coyote is saying and that's not what I'm saying. We're not justifying terrorism. Neither of us believes they're justified in what they do; we just believe they have different reasons for doing it.

None of what we post is to excuse terrorism. Only to help explain it and the situation that has created it.


.

I'm a she. and not wearing a silly hat.
the reason for terrorism is because of Islamic theology, anything else is an excuse an apology.
no one can make someone kill someone else. unless you live in... silly world.

 

[vyo476]

Islam chose to evolve just the way it has evolved. seem to me that you think they will evolve to be just like the West. that would be against Islamic theology and not how they want to evolve. nor do they consider themselves un-evolved. they do however consider us un-evolved and pigs and dogs since we haven't taken the right path.

So now, you're not just an "expert" on Islam, you're an expert on the mentality of all Muslims! Wonders never cease!

I don't expect Islam to be "just like the West." You think in such limited terms that it's astounding that you have any concept of the future. Many societies change in many ways - look at how Japan has changed since World War II. They were once one of the most imperialistic, militaristic cultures on the planet; not so today. Yet they're hardly "just like the West" either.

You always come back to this limited view of Islamic theology that you think dominates every little thing about their society. Here's a clue - societies are a lot more complicated than you seem to think.

you seem to be assuming that Islam was some sort of lost civilization that was corrupted by the US and EU... that is just not the case.

And you seem to be assuming that they're nothing more than a dangerous cult that is totally incompatible with the modern world. Do you ever stop to ask yourself where that line of reasoning takes you?