Understanding the Enemy

[bewitched]

No. Not all muslims believe such a thing.

A person who believes his right to exist precedes that of another person, REGARDLESS of religion he professes, is scum indeed.

this is the theology. not individual behavior.
many people can't get past this concept.

and the theology of Islam is that any non-muslims are inferior.
if they are taught that from birth then do you think they will think any other way? there are cartoons on Lebanese tv that teach kids this.
so while everyone has different thought patterns there is still a collective element that superiority.
there is no pluralism in Islam, there is only one path, and it is to Allah. that includes Quranic Sharia law.

 

[9sublime]

OK then bewitched, I'll go along with this just for the sake of it.

So thats what the theology says. But if lots of Muslims aren't following it, why does it matter so much????

 

[Popeye]

this is the theology. not individual behavior.
many people can't get past this concept.

and the theology of Islam is that any non-muslims are inferior.
if they are taught that from birth then do you think they will think any other way? there are cartoons on Lebanese tv that teach kids this.
so while everyone has different thought patterns there is still a collective element that superiority.
there is no pluralism in Islam, there is only one path, and it is to Allah. that includes Quranic Sharia law.

I keep asking you bewitched, don't fundamentalists Christians think the same way?
They are indoctrinated from birth that their brand of Christianity is the only true belief and everybody else is going to hell. Their leaders exude a totally unwarranted aura of superiority. Most consider them nuts, but in the past they have been dangerous, the Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.

 

[heyjude]

I keep asking you bewitched, don't fundamentalists Christians think the same way?
They are indoctrinated from birth that their brand of Christianity is the only true belief and everybody else is going to hell. Their leaders exude a totally unwarranted aura of superiority. Most consider them nuts, but in the past they have been dangerous, the Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.

I agree with you. Fundies are the enemy of all the people in all the world. No matter what religion they profess. The Christian fundies are just as anti-American as any Muslim in this country. They may fight amongst themselves about who gets to own us, but they all want to own us.

 

[numinus]

this is the theology. not individual behavior.
many people can't get past this concept.

and the theology of Islam is that any non-muslims are inferior.
if they are taught that from birth then do you think they will think any other way? there are cartoons on Lebanese tv that teach kids this.
so while everyone has different thought patterns there is still a collective element that superiority.
there is no pluralism in Islam, there is only one path, and it is to Allah. that includes Quranic Sharia law.

I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way.

The establishment of any nation (and that includes the western democracies) was precipitated precisely by a sense of nationalism felt by a particular people, no? And in asserting a people's distinct national identity, is it not reasonable to think in terms of superior traits common to all? And by extension, religions, as political associations, go through the same process as well.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with people living according to their distinct national (or religious) identity, as is their right. In fact, it is necessary when a nation take the next step and occupy their place within the community of nations. However, under no circumstance does this give leave to deny others these same rights.

As I said, there are many muslims and many muslim nations - the majority of which wish to CO-EXIST with others. I do not give stock to the pronouncements of an irritatingly vocal minority hiding in some hole in some desert who wish to misrepresent their absurd agenda as the religion of islam in its entirety.

Your argument is simply wrong.

 

[Castle]

I keep asking you bewitched, don't fundamentalists Christians think the same way?
They are indoctrinated from birth that their brand of Christianity is the only true belief and everybody else is going to hell. Their leaders exude a totally unwarranted aura of superiority. Most consider them nuts, but in the past they have been dangerous, the Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc.

Interesting concept. So it would appear you are promoting the idea that Islamic extremists are due some sort of pass in the present because the sins of Christianity in the past preclude any judgment on their actions now. This is a good angle, however when looking at current extremist elements side-by-side you've got a lot of work to do if you have any hope of convincing me that I have more to fear from Christianity than Islam.

 

[Jeffrey Neuzil]

Iits all a matter of perspective: Nietzschean perspective?!

What we have to fear most of all, as I have argued, is that our media is so narrow in its focus, so biased in its perspective, so limited in the critical powers that it promotes in us U.S. citizens, by its monopolistic shaping of our perspective, that the stories emanating from it are not, of necessity, reliable or credible, if they are not outright falsehoods, disinformation, or misinformation:meanwhile, we believe in them and, to exaggerate only slightly, yield to vote after "affirmative vote"—democrans and republicrats equally guilty of this—of greater funding for a war that may well be a sham; more the image projected on the wall—our televisions—than a reality: where does all the money go?—in the bloated coffers of our elitist politicians to fund more and more of their elitist ventures, which come down to oil parties with the rest of the world's wealthy elite, who have little more than contempt for our gullibility and lack of ability to see that both parties have cheated us out of a politics which truly is dedicated to the relative common good: Look around you and ask yourself has allof the tax monies we have given over the last fifty years provided us with a decent return a better society, better education, better standards of living, more opportunities, or are things declining rapidly, possibly signaling a revolution to come? Wake up America and demand accountability for that which really matters—liberty and abetter life for our descendents!

 

[Jeffrey Neuzil]

Its all a matter of perspective: Nietzschean perspective?!

What we have to fear most of all, as I have argued, is that our media is so narrow in its focus, so biased in its perspective, so limited in the critical powers that it promotes in us U.S. citizens, by its monopolistic shaping of our perspective, that the stories emanating from it are not, of necessity, reliable or credible, if they are not outright falsehoods, disinformation, or misinformation:meanwhile, we believe in them and, to exaggerate only slightly, yield to vote after "affirmative vote"—democrans and republicrats equally guilty of this—of greater funding for a war that may well be a sham; more the image projected on the wall—our televisions—than a reality: where does all the money go?—in the bloated coffers of our elitist politicians to fund more and more of their elitist ventures, which come down to oil parties with the rest of the world's wealthy elite, who have little more than contempt for our gullibility and lack of ability to see that both parties have cheated us out of a politics which truly is dedicated to the relative common good: Look around you and ask yourself has allof the tax monies we have given over the last fifty years provided us with a decent return a better society, better education, better standards of living, more opportunities, or are things declining rapidly, possibly signaling a revolution to come? Wake up America and demand accountability for that which really matters—liberty and abetter life for our descendents!

 

[bewitched]

In fact, it is necessary when a nation take the next step and occupy their place within the community of nations. However, under no circumstance does this give leave to deny others these same rights.

As I said, there are many muslims and many muslim nations - the majority of which wish to CO-EXIST with others.
.

others are denied rights by law. just by the fact that it is illegal to convert to Christianity in many of the 57 OIC countries. illegal, penalty of death.
another fact of law id jizya, which is a tax paid by non-muslims. so these rights that you seem to think exist... do not.

again, try to seperate your statements from individual muslims and their "wishes" and reality.

 

[bewitched]

Interesting concept. So it would appear you are promoting the idea that Islamic extremists are due some sort of pass in the present because the sins of Christianity in the past preclude any judgment on their actions now. This is a good angle, however when looking at current extremist elements side-by-side you've got a lot of work to do if you have any hope of convincing me that I have more to fear from Christianity than Islam.

take a look at the list of Islamic terrorist acts post-911 and stand it side-by-side to Christian acts of terrorism.
www.thereligionofpeace.com

this is a common mistake many Americans make, believing that comparing Christianity and Islam makes any difference in explaining todays daily acts of terrorism and hate towards America and the West.

 

[bewitched]

I agree with you. Fundies are the enemy of all the people in all the world. No matter what religion they profess. The Christian fundies are just as anti-American as any Muslim in this country. They may fight amongst themselves about who gets to own us, but they all want to own us.

Christian "fundies" haven't created an organized group of more than a million soldiers with the specific purpose to kill non-muslims.
Christian "fundies" don't have childrens television shows encouraging children to become suicide bombers.
Christian "fundies" are not killing daily in the name of their religion.

Iran has signed up over 500,000 people who have volunteered to become suicide bombers. there are thousands in the AQ organization. there are millions who demonstrate and cause destruction to small events such as cartoons of Mohammed and a teddy bear named Mohammed.
Lebanese tv has children shows depicting symbols of the west and a mother teaching her daughter to follow in her footsteps and strap on a vest.
everyday there are innocents beheaded and killed because they are not muslims or they have accepted non-muslims.
1/3 of the fighters in Iraq come from Saudi. this effort against the West has no borders in dar ul Islam. and it will not be ending soon.

 

[bewitched]

topic, understanding the enemy.
it's important to note that (1.) civilians by day, fighters by night is common Islam, they don't wear military uniforms (2.) this isn't a small group of crazies against us (3.) the enemy shares the basic brotherhood of Islamic theology, kill non-muslims.

"Woman caught with bomb under burqa: official," from AFP

ASADABAD, Afghanistan - Afghan intelligence agents said Monday they had detained a woman hiding a bomb-filled waistcoat of the type used in Taleban suicide attacks under her all-covering burqa.
The 55-year-old woman was followed from the eastern province of Kunar after a tip-off and arrested in the town of Jalalabad, an official in Kunar’s intelligence department told AFP.

“She was carrying the suicide waistcoat for the Taleban. We had intelligence reports that she was working for the Taleban,” said the official, who asked not to be identified by name.

The woman was being questioned “to find out more about her network,” he said.

Most Afghan women still wear the burqa, which was mandatory under the 1996-2001 Taleban government, and cannot be searched by men at security checkposts.

 

[Popeye]

topic, understanding the enemy.
it's important to note that (1.) civilians by day, fighters by night is common Islam, they don't wear military uniforms (2.) this isn't a small group of crazies against us (3.) the enemy shares the basic brotherhood of Islamic theology, kill non-muslims.

"Woman caught with bomb under burqa: official," from AFP

ASADABAD, Afghanistan - Afghan intelligence agents said Monday they had detained a woman hiding a bomb-filled waistcoat of the type used in Taleban suicide attacks under her all-covering burqa.
The 55-year-old woman was followed from the eastern province of Kunar after a tip-off and arrested in the town of Jalalabad, an official in Kunar’s intelligence department told AFP.

“She was carrying the suicide waistcoat for the Taleban. We had intelligence reports that she was working for the Taleban,” said the official, who asked not to be identified by name.

The woman was being questioned “to find out more about her network,” he said.

Most Afghan women still wear the burqa, which was mandatory under the 1996-2001 Taleban government, and cannot be searched by men at security checkposts.

According to you, the entire Islamic religion is composed of religious soldiers out to get us. There are approximately 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Therefore, it only follows that if all of them were troublemakers (suicide bombers etc.), they would be causing a heck of a lot more havoc than they already have.

There is Islam and there is radical Islam, don't tar them all with the same brush.

 

[bewitched]

According to you, the entire Islamic religion is composed of religious soldiers out to get us. There are approximately 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Therefore, it only follows that if all of them were troublemakers (suicide bombers etc.), they would be causing a heck of a lot more havoc than they already have.

There is Islam and there is radical Islam, don't tar them all with the same brush.

no. I never said the entire Islamic religion is out to get us. those are your words.

there is no way to distinguish between radical, moderate or regular muslims.
therefore unless the moderate, un-radical, regular muslims start standing up and identifying themselves... (which they aren't) there is no way for the West to protect ourselves.

in order to understand the enemy it's important to remove your emotions from the subject.
can you explain over 10000 Islamic terrorist incidents since 911? it's not a small minority of thugs. these are organized educated people with a plan, and it includes attacks against the West and non-muslims. as long as we deny, apologize, make excuses we won't know the enemy.

 

[vyo476]

Christian "fundies" haven't created an organized group of more than a million soldiers with the specific purpose to kill non-muslims.
Christian "fundies" don't have childrens television shows encouraging children to become suicide bombers.
Christian "fundies" are not killing daily in the name of their religion.

Once upon a time Christians did all these things, in modified forms (ie, popular entertainment forms have changed a lot over the course of a few thousand years, obviously Christianity didn't have television or bombs eight hundred years ago). And, what, we're supposed to believe that they were all mistaken, and present-day Christians have miraculously discovered the one "true" Christianity? No, they've just evolved. That doesn't mean that what the religion is today is any more "true" to the nature of Christianity than what it was eight hundred years ago.

And we're supposed to believe that the same standards cannot be applied to Islam as well? Yes, they're part of a very different aesthetic, but things, people, culture, technology, all change. The violence that once dominated much of Christianity is gone because Christianity has changed. Islam is undergoing and will continue to undergo such changes as well.

Go pick up Reza Aslan's No god but God. It'll help you see what I mean.

Iran has signed up over 500,000 people who have volunteered to become suicide bombers.

Provide evidence.

there are thousands in the AQ organization.

Provide evidence.

there are millions who demonstrate and cause destruction to small events such as cartoons of Mohammed and a teddy bear named Mohammed.

Provide evidence.

Lebanese tv has children shows depicting symbols of the west and a mother teaching her daughter to follow in her footsteps and strap on a vest.

Provide evidence.

everyday there are innocents beheaded and killed because they are not muslims or they have accepted non-muslims.

Provide evidence.

1/3 of the fighters in Iraq come from Saudi.

Provide evidence.

this effort against the West has no borders in dar ul Islam. and it will not be ending soon.

If you want to make factual statements like this you have to be prepared to back them up with evidence, ie links to sites that corroborate your facts. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong in these statements; just that I'd like to see your sources.