Jihad is not confined to literal war. So how is jb perfectly accurate, again - seeing how he is talking about literal war, hmmm?
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Understanding the Enemy
- Thread starter bewitched
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Jihad is not confined to literal war. So how is jb perfectly accurate, again - seeing how he is talking about literal war, hmmm?
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You couldnt have provided us a better demonstration of peace, love and tolerance among Muslims. Allowing Christians and Jews to live another day if they obey the Muslim rulers is considered tolerance, because for everyone of other faiths its convert or die. And they actually consider this to be "peace, love and tolerance". You actually view it a privilidge for the Muslims to allow Christians and Jews to continue living because they are killing all the idolaters. Freakin amazing. Most of you Muslims dwell in an alternate reality from the west.
And all the left wing whiney moonbats in the west, falling over themselves to defend this ideology????? Freakin amazing. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". It isnt necessary that you guys actually defend the evil.
Noooo, it is the Bukhari haddiths that are talking about literal war.
You are obviously baffled senseless by now.
That is TOLERANT in the 7th century milieu - as compared to the barbaric hordes of europe and asian conquerors on empire-building sprees. Certainly no different to pax americana of the last couple of centuries. At least they fought their wars to create their empire. America simply bought her colonies.
Correct.
Meanwhile, you and your goat-herder friends mean to extend 'literal' war on peoples of the book - AGAINST THE VERY DOCTRINE YOU CRITICIZE.
No amount of spin would make your argument any less absurd.
And you presented this as evidence that "Islam is a religion of peace, love and tolerance" in the 21st "century milieu". What you dont realize is that from a western perspective you just demonstrated why Islam in this milieu is expressed thru violence, hate and intolerance. From your perspective, for Muslims to allow Christians and Jews the opportunity to avoid their swords if they agree to pay the tax and accept their "state of subjection" to their Muslim masters, is a demonstration of Islams tolerance. From our perspective it is a demonstration of the intolerance of Islamic doctrine.
In the 21st century milieu, islam can and do co-exist with other religions in a single polity. Rational moslems view jihad as a personal struggle.
Try looking at malaysia, indonesia, brunei, and other south-east asian nations, instead of merely looking at goat-herders turned demagogues. These nations not only celebrate their ethnic and religious diversity - it is a major factor in their economic prosperity as well.
Yes I am thrilled that the Muslims of the far east prefer to apply Greek concepts of hermeneutics and the French concepts of Milieu to the arabic doctrine. Because without it, its some pretty violent stuff when read literally. Unfortunately most Sunnis reject these western concept and apply ijtihad to the written doctrine and come to very different interpretations. Over in Egypt they brand Zayd an apostate for daring to suggest that they interpret the verses, requiring Christians and Jews to pay Jizya and the permissability of owning slave girls, in their own Milieu, and therefore not applicable today. Saying that such matters are "not subject to discussion" because these "principle considered "religiously proven without doubt","
They dont use "hermeneutics" and "Milieu" to add western color to their interpretations of the doctrine. They us "IJTIHAD". And the gates of ijtihad were closed over a thousand years ago.
????? The koran and haddiths are full of text refering to the 'literal' war on peoples of the book. Other than his own tribe, Muhammed spent most of his time waging jihad against the people of the book. Perhaps you are refering to the distinction that when people of the book surrender to the invading muslim armies, they are allowed to live if "they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." Idolaters must convert to Islam or die.
And unfortunately the fundamentalist dont even believe that the average christian or jew in America qualifies as one of the people of the book. We follow "polytheism", "paganistic beliefs" according to their doctrine.
No they don't use greek concepts. They simply do not subscribe to your goat-herder logic.
Meeeeeh.
I wonder where exactly do you get your demographics? Exactly what percentage of the 1.2 billion moslems of the world subscribe to 'literal' jihad, eh?
I feel sorry for your calcified ignorance.
And in what absurd twist of logic does 69 million egyptian moslem represent the 1.2 billion moslems in the world, hmmm?
Milieu is merely a word. There is hardly any concept behind it other than its dictionary meaning.
1.2 billion moslems in the world. Do you understand this number? There is a simple and infallible way to demonstrate that the majority of this number do not subscribe to literal jihad - THE ABSENCE OF SUCH A PHENOMENON ON A GLOBAL SCALE.
My 5 year old has a better grasp of this logic than you. Perhaps you should be talking to her.
Coyote
Well-Known Member
I think that sums up the argument: it comes down to numbers.
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/70people_of_the_book.php
"Unbiased people who study Islamic history and the Muslims' relationship with the Jews and Christians living under Islamic rule will come across the following fact: The People of the Book have always lived in peace and tranquility under Islamic rule.
God reveals that those Christians and Jews who believe in Him and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds will receive the fairest rewards for their virtue:
Those who believe, those who are Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans, all who believe in God and the Last Day and act rightly will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. (Qur'an, 2:62)
Prophet Mohammed's (may God bless him and grant him peace) Exemplary Attitude
Prophet Mohammed (saas), the best role model for Muslims who deal with the People of the Book, was always just and compassionate toward Jews and Christians and tried to create an atmosphere based on reconciliation and love among these three religious communities. Various agreements and guarantees allowed Christians and Jews to live as autonomous religious communities.
Prophet Mohammed (saas) allowed the Jews to become a party to the Constitution of Madinah signed with the Aws and Khazraj clans, which permitted them to continue living as a separate religious community. The basis for this acceptance of the Jews' faith and traditions was laid down in the following article: "The Jews of Banu Awf [non-Muslim minorities] are a community along with the believers. To the Jews their religion, and to the Muslim their religion." 1
Freedom of Belief and Worship
Beginning at the time of Prophet Mohammed (saas), there has always been freedom of religion in Muslim-ruled lands. Articles guaranteeing the protection of monasteries and churches have been important parts of all agreements signed between Muslims and the People of the Book. Historical documents reveal that many Muslims visited monasteries to rest for the night, to enjoy a meal, or even to have a civilized conversation during their travels or campaigns.
The People of the Book often responded warmly toward Muslims. The following expressions were recorded in an agreement signed by Caliph Umar, which was presented to Abu Ubayda by the Syrian Christians:
[We imposed these terms on ourselves:]… not to withhold our churches from Muslims stopping there by night or day; to open their doors to the traveller and wayfarer; …to entertain every Muslim traveller in our customary style and feed him… We will not abuse a Muslim, and he who strikes a Muslim has forfeited his rights. 2
Under Islamic rule, the People of the Book have always celebrated their religious festivities as they pleased. From time to time, the Muslim leadership even attended them. A letter by the Nestorian Patriarch Isho'yab III (650-60) reveals the Muslim leaders' compassion and acceptance toward the People of the Book:
They [Abbasids] have not attacked the Christian religion, but rather they have commended our faith, honored our priests... and conferred benefits on churches and monasteries. 3
These historical facts reveal that, contrary to much of what we read today, Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance. Christians and Jews lived freely under Muslim rule and enjoyed the freedoms of religious belief and thought.
Tranquility under Muslim Rule
During the first few centuries of the Christian era, Jews oppressed Christians; as the latter became more powerful, they began to oppress Jews and even fellow Christians belonging to other sects. The Middle Ages were dominated by the Catholic church's oppression of all Jews and Christians who did not agree with its teachings. Some non-Catholics sought refuge with the Muslims. The oppression and violence directed by Byzantium against the Egyptian Monophysite and the Jacobean Christians, the horrors endured by those Jews and Orthodox Christians who found themselves in the path of the Catholic Crusaders, and the persecution endured by the Jews of Europe, as well as by the Muslims and Jews in Spain after the reconquista, have never occurred on Muslim soil.
Jews escaping Spanish tyranny found the peace and security they sought on Ottoman soil. Driven out of Spain and faced with more hardship in other countries where they sought refuge, many died of hunger and thirst at the gates of towns and cities they were not permitted to enter. Jews who boarded Genoese ships were either exploited or sold to pirates. Sultan Bayazid welcomed the Jews into his empire and demanded that the people show them the respect and acceptance to which they were entitled.
The order proclaimed not to refuse the Jews entry or cause them difficulties, but to receive them cordially. 4 Sultan Bayazid is known to history as a religious man, and his hospitality and acceptance were based on the Qur'an's morality.
Living under the Islamic rule, the People of the Book took part in the bustling cultural life. Muslim leaders extended their cultural patronage to the lands they conquered and imported them to Baghdad, capital of the empire, where they would be studied by Muslim, Christian, and Jewish scientists. Each of them in turn, could teach their works based on these studies alongside their own religious beliefs. At a time when Muslims supported science and freedom of thought, Europe, the center of Christianity, had Inquisition courts that burned people at the stake for their heretical, meaning non-Catholic, thoughts or religious beliefs.
The Muslim leaders' sense of justice led many Christians and Jews to bring their cases to Islamic courts, even though they had their own courts with their own laws. At one time, the Nestorian patriarch Mar Timothee I (780-825) even circulated a decree to counteract the ever-increasing number of Christians taking their cases to Islamic courts. 5
The Non-Muslims' Legal Status
The People of the Book living within the Muslim realm were considered dhimmis, rather than prisoners of war, and therefore were guaranteed certain legal rights. For example, in exchange for paying the jizya tax, their lives and property were guaranteed, and they enjoyed freedom of religious belief and thought, were exempted from military service, and had the right to their own law courts to resolve their disputes. On some occasions, their taxes were refunded.
Our Prophet (saas) said: "I am the adversary of those who wrong the dhimmis or burden them with a load they cannot carry." According to this principle, Muslims considered it their duty to protect those non-Muslims living under their rule. The Muslims' sense of justice dictates that dhimmis come under the state's protection.
The amicable history between Muslims and Jews and Christians is an example for the present. The Islamic code of ethics requires that non-Muslims be accepted, that their values and beliefs be respected, and that an environment in which peaceful coexistence is possible be created. Therefore, the spread of this code, as well as efforts to correct some misguided practices claiming to be Islamic, will play an important role."
You are a liar whose sole intent is to sow goat-herder logic.
From wiki:
"Commonly cited estimates of the Muslim population in 2007 range from 1.1 billion to 1.8 billion. Approximately 85% are Sunni and 15% are Shi'a, with a small minority belonging to other sects. Some 30–40 countries are Muslim-majority, and Arabs account for around 20% of all Muslims worldwide. South Asia and Southeast Asia contain the most populous Muslim countries, with Indonesia, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh having more than 100 million adherents each..."
Imagine that!
Goat herder logic comes from a region that accounts for a mere 20% of the entire moslem population of the world?!
And assuming every moslem in the region subscribe to literal jihad, the above estimate translates to 220 - 360 million angry goat-herders - enough to set the entire region into flames. Instead, what we actually see is a couple of goat-herders making bad rhetorical speeches.
bewitched
Well-Known Member
as long as they pay a jizya.
and a dhimmi is lesser of a human than a muslim.
are you Islamic? or just a sympathizer?
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Coyote
Well-Known Member
I think you just like throwing around Islamic terminology so you sound like you know what you are talking about.
Carry on
