The VP Debate thread.

[Andy]

Personally I think anyone who runs around saying the world is 6000 years old, and man was walking around with T+rex...is a idiot. I'm sorry that basic science wins over, literal readings of the Bible.

There is actually quite a bit of basic scientific evidence that supports this theory. But I can understand that is your view since science education in America sucks pretty bad.

I ment why do Republicans care who someone sleeps with? I don't care if you want to ban gays from the church marriage, but they should have legal rights to things like medical visitation rights, child custody if other dies, and other legal rights a married couple should have....And the tried to take some old laws off the books, that basically banned some sex acts...family values republicans came out against it, ( I think here they lost so screw them but still ) To often they are trying to make laws out of Values...thinks you learn from family , church, or what have you, but they want in law.

I understand that since you are a non-believer. Unless you ever know God and his truth, I would not expect you to understand trying to uphold his laws.

Thinks like having the 10 commandments outside a court...how can anyone from some other religion, on a court case that could be Religious, expect a fair hearing if they are not Christian and see that on the court?

Is government supposed to represent us? Do the people of any city or town, whose money funds all government buildings, have rights to those buildings? I think they do, and that if the public wishes to have the 10 commandments on a building, they should be allowed. It's their building. Unless you can find something so horrible in the them, I don't see what the problem is.

You are basically saying that a Hindu might be offended by "you shall not murder?" Or don't lie? Or don't commit adultery? Is there something unfair about these? Don't steal?

As for spending, 2000-2008 ...do I really need to say anything more? Republicans in charge and man could they spend, and spend and spend. what was the debt in 1992 to 2000...then what was it from 2000 till now? I don't want to hear republicans ***** about spending till they show me then can actually cut it, and cut the deficit. Only thing I see them do is cut taxes, and mostly not taxes that effect me.I recall the econ in the 90's I know it today, its not a hard choice ( and yes Clinton gets to much credit for it, but I think Bush's policy are just as much to blame for our bad econ now.

As I've said before, our economy is growing. When Clinton left, it was in recession. This is established fact. So you might have 'felt' the economy was better under him, but in reality, it is better under Bush.

Like I said, it was the republicans in 1994, that curtailed over spending, and held the democrats in check. And in case you missed it, the democrats passed massive over spending bills. How can you entirely blame Bush for things the democrats passed? Can I blame you for things Shaman said? Or perhaps blame Obama for Fannie Mae failing, when it was Franklin Raines who drove it into the ground?

As for Iraq, I Said the intl was bad, I said the Niger Report was a fake when Bush used it as proof, I knew he at best was giving a large exageration about the Tubes ( most said they could not be used for Nukes, only some still said maybe....Bush took those few maybes and made it a clear case for them being correct ) I said Iraq would get in on this, and the did ( I felt it possible they would get alot more involved then they have so far though)

There is no indication that the intel was bad. Both the rockefeller report, and the post-war Iraq commission, both indicate that the unconventional weapons were moved, or destroyed without being told. Even the UN had a report from UNSCOM that they were concerned that the WMDs were not recovered. How could they be concerned about things the American left claims never existed?

Further, Iraq did buy uranium from Niger, as stated. This was not made up, and it was widely supported. Iraq had purchased uranium from Niger before. See, you bought into some left wing lies. They are not true when you simply do some research on the topic.

They said it would be easy, some said the sunni and shia would not go to civil war, I said that we would be stuck in the middle of a Ethinic/Religion war ...we did and we where lucky that the Sunni in time turned on al Quida, or we still would be. I would have loved to have been wrong about Iraq, but more or less it went down how I said it would, maybe a bit better then I guessed .

This is true. The administration did claim that it would be a quick and clear cut defeat. I grant you that. The people in charge were looking at the short term victory over Saddam. The troops were demoralized. The public fed up. His internal chain of command, ready to give up at a moments notice. In 2003, prior to the war starting, a group of Iraqi military heard some explosions, and assuming the war had started, marched to a British bunker and surrendered. The Brits sent them back, because they were not ready.

From this angle, the administration was absolutely correct. The war against Saddam was over in one month. However, what the administration misjudged was the post-saddam iraq. The power vacuum was not filled by a quickly formed remains of the government. Instead everyone was at a loss as to the next step, and infighting sprang up. To complicate matters, Iran and Al Qaeda began pushing their influence.

That said, taking out Saddam was clearly and obviously a needed thing. Clinton said it had to be done, but didn't have the guts to do it. All the democrat leadership said the same. Hillary said the same. Bush said the same. The other nations said the same. Again, you have to assume the half the planet was lying, in order to claim it was all made up. Well... it just wasn't. Sorry.

And as far as rebuilding? Im sure some areas are, but other areas are still just as bad if not worse then they where when Saddam fell. But it is very lacking still, and its even worse in Afganistan where the attacks of Sept 11 actuly where based, and things are getting worse there.

Which is why it is so important that we keep at it. That's the whole point. We can't pull out before the mission is complete. If we leave before they are able to stand, they will fall, and then not only will we have made a mockery of all those who died for this cause, but we also will have doomed the entire country which will not forgive our treachery for leaving them high and dry.

and as for the UnAmerican ....well lets see
McCain said Obama would rather win the election and loss the war...to me that is calling into quesion the Dem Leaders Patriotism.

Well let's see.... When Obama first heard about us going to Iraq, he was against it. Then when we captured Saddam, and the people were dancing in the streets at his capture, and the rest of his government had been killed or fled the country... he was for it. Now that his parties base is against the war, he's against it and demands a time table for withdrawal. When his polls showed he was losing on the issue, now he just wants a specific plan for leaving Iraq.

Point being... Obama has taken a number of stands on this issue, to align with whatever is the most politically advantageous. When it will benefit him to be for it, he's for it. When it will benefit him to be against it, he's against it. When a time table gains political points, he'll support it. When a time table will lose him points, he's against it.

So yes... I question his patriotism. Especially when he came from a church saying "g-d damn America". If that offends you, sorry, but I have good clean documented evidence for my views, and I stand by them.

And I would love to have had you sit and listen the the **** I was called, and others with me, for not supporting the war on Iraq, or in my case, simply questioning it and asking questions. It was sad really. To me, it seems like when ever the Right does not agree with the left anymore, it just brands what ever idea or position ...as somehow UN American. Maybe you don't see it because its not aimed at you, I don't know, but trust me, I have seen it many times. Way to much.

I may attack someone as partisan, as not knowing the facts, as even just being a idot...But never once have I ever attacked anyone for being UnAmerican or Unpatriotic simply because I don't agree with them.

Well, I hate to tell you this... but I know many democrats who actually believe being unpatriotic is a plus. To some it's a badge of honor. Now, apparently you do not. I respect that. But the fact is, there are many democrats who actually hate the USA and what it stands for. They hate the things that made America great. They support the enemies of the US.

I'm sorry you are being lumped into that group by republicans, but if you had heard half the things I've been accused of, being called unpatriotic is the least insulting. That isn't to minimize it to you, just maybe you should see what leftist call republicans.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

There is actually quite a bit of basic scientific evidence that supports this theory. But I can understand that is your view since science education in America sucks pretty bad.



I understand that since you are a non-believer. Unless you ever know God and his truth, I would not expect you to understand trying to uphold his laws.



Is government supposed to represent us? Do the people of any city or town, whose money funds all government buildings, have rights to those buildings? I think they do, and that if the public wishes to have the 10 commandments on a building, they should be allowed. It's their building. Unless you can find something so horrible in the them, I don't see what the problem is.

You are basically saying that a Hindu might be offended by "you shall not murder?" Or don't lie? Or don't commit adultery? Is there something unfair about these? Don't steal?



As I've said before, our economy is growing. When Clinton left, it was in recession. This is established fact. So you might have 'felt' the economy was better under him, but in reality, it is better under Bush.

Like I said, it was the republicans in 1994, that curtailed over spending, and held the democrats in check. And in case you missed it, the democrats passed massive over spending bills. How can you entirely blame Bush for things the democrats passed? Can I blame you for things Shaman said? Or perhaps blame Obama for Fannie Mae failing, when it was Franklin Raines who drove it into the ground?



There is no indication that the intel was bad. Both the rockefeller report, and the post-war Iraq commission, both indicate that the unconventional weapons were moved, or destroyed without being told. Even the UN had a report from UNSCOM that they were concerned that the WMDs were not recovered. How could they be concerned about things the American left claims never existed?

Further, Iraq did buy uranium from Niger, as stated. This was not made up, and it was widely supported. Iraq had purchased uranium from Niger before. See, you bought into some left wing lies. They are not true when you simply do some research on the topic.



This is true. The administration did claim that it would be a quick and clear cut defeat. I grant you that. The people in charge were looking at the short term victory over Saddam. The troops were demoralized. The public fed up. His internal chain of command, ready to give up at a moments notice. In 2003, prior to the war starting, a group of Iraqi military heard some explosions, and assuming the war had started, marched to a British bunker and surrendered. The Brits sent them back, because they were not ready.

From this angle, the administration was absolutely correct. The war against Saddam was over in one month. However, what the administration misjudged was the post-saddam iraq. The power vacuum was not filled by a quickly formed remains of the government. Instead everyone was at a loss as to the next step, and infighting sprang up. To complicate matters, Iran and Al Qaeda began pushing their influence.

That said, taking out Saddam was clearly and obviously a needed thing. Clinton said it had to be done, but didn't have the guts to do it. All the democrat leadership said the same. Hillary said the same. Bush said the same. The other nations said the same. Again, you have to assume the half the planet was lying, in order to claim it was all made up. Well... it just wasn't. Sorry.



Which is why it is so important that we keep at it. That's the whole point. We can't pull out before the mission is complete. If we leave before they are able to stand, they will fall, and then not only will we have made a mockery of all those who died for this cause, but we also will have doomed the entire country which will not forgive our treachery for leaving them high and dry.



Well let's see.... When Obama first heard about us going to Iraq, he was against it. Then when we captured Saddam, and the people were dancing in the streets at his capture, and the rest of his government had been killed or fled the country... he was for it. Now that his parties base is against the war, he's against it and demands a time table for withdrawal. When his polls showed he was losing on the issue, now he just wants a specific plan for leaving Iraq.

Point being... Obama has taken a number of stands on this issue, to align with whatever is the most politically advantageous. When it will benefit him to be for it, he's for it. When it will benefit him to be against it, he's against it. When a time table gains political points, he'll support it. When a time table will lose him points, he's against it.

So yes... I question his patriotism. Especially when he came from a church saying "g-d damn America". If that offends you, sorry, but I have good clean documented evidence for my views, and I stand by them.



Well, I hate to tell you this... but I know many democrats who actually believe being unpatriotic is a plus. To some it's a badge of honor. Now, apparently you do not. I respect that. But the fact is, there are many democrats who actually hate the USA and what it stands for. They hate the things that made America great. They support the enemies of the US.

I'm sorry you are being lumped into that group by republicans, but if you had heard half the things I've been accused of, being called unpatriotic is the least insulting. That isn't to minimize it to you, just maybe you should see what leftist call republicans.

there is a great deal that says its not even close to 6000 years , and the same proof use for that, is often the same that's used to proof documents and things are from the time of Jesus...yet later the same people often seem to throw them out as not accurate.

No I am not a believer, I find nothing in the story of the bible that is believable. honestly to me the story seems , just about as unlikely as that of Scientology ( of course not quite that bad, man that is just a dumb idea they have...I try to respect other Religions...but not that one lol) But my point about the laws and Court house is, this nation is build on laws, and those laws should be held by everyone, and not based on Religion as this is a nation where you are free to be christian, I am free to not believe in any god, and others are free to believe in other gods. To have outside a proclamation of support of one Religion destroys the idea of neutrality of the courts in any case that may have some other Religion in it. Think about the Debate for VP, while in the end no one could say it was bias...everyone on the right here went in thinking it was bias...because of her book. Anyone walking in that church who is not Christian would think that the court was bias, and we don't want our court system to be that do we?

The econ is better now then under clinton? Tell that to anyone I know, anyone on the street, any cust I talk to, any one I work with, ...NO one thinks its better. I don't know where you see it, maybe in the lines of the very riches pocket books, but everyone I know is hurting. If you wish to keep thinking its better, then fine, but just like McCain who kept saying the same thing, when you lose the election, don't think you have to look hard for why. I don't know when having to bail out the banks at maybe a trillion bucks was a good econ, but you can have it. I don't recall doing that in the 90s.

As for republicans in 90's you know what I recall them doing, one think. talking about Bill Clinton's penis and what it was doing. I don't recall them doing anything about cutting spending at all, or fighting terrorism ( only attacking Clinton when he attacked afghanistan targeting Bin Laden)Fact iw Bill was the man at the top, **** was good. Bush is the man at the top , **** is bad. Under Republicans before Clinton, things where not good again..( hence why he lost to clinton) even though I liked Bush I.

Bush in the state of the Union gave named to things of evidence,....Both where not correct. Iraq already had yellowcake, I know, and we knew. it was actually part of the reason we knew the story and the document he talked about to be fake. It was a known fake, I knew it was a fake, I knew that our intel people said it was fake, I knew that the signature was said to be clearly forged and child like. Bush stood up and use it anyway. Now if you knew that , and you watched Obama get up and use that document for a war, what would you think about it? The you saw him talk about something else, as proof that you also knew to not be true ...even if you had other intel you had seen from years before...would you not start to question , that if this is the best he has to tell us and its not true, and he should know its not? that maybe there is something up here? I had read those reports before, I believed Iraq had WMD ( it was one thing I was really glad I was wrong about going into Iraq. I was up all night fearing that they would use them against us or Israel....I should add some **** at fox stated they hoped they used them ...to prove liberals wrong...) But I started to more and more doubt bush the more he talked...In the end I found more and more intel that showed he he most likely did not have any, some suggestion he did but got rid of it in 1998 when out inspectors left...our source for that was killed by Saddam after we got this intel.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

cont


As for your next part about hot the first part went easy in a month, I agree, but I said that would happen most likely, it was always the after part I heard. the tanks where just target practice, it was the fact that we had reports of Iraq special forces with US troop uniforms ready, and that that I knew to be the issue. And I anyone with half a brain had to know you take Saddam out of power, there was going to be a vacuum and to Religions who had basically been just ready for a bloodbath at each other for Revenge waiting. That we went in like we did, and had planned as poorly as we did, told me a lot about Bush's idea of the war...It was geopolitics ( no not oil) and Democracy was really a small part, or he would have taken more care to understand the people, nation, and what needed to be done to secure it. But for the most part I agree with what you said.

As for the stuff said about you, I am sure I have heard it, the Hitler crap and Nazi Bull....you notice that when ever any liberal here has said it, I have attacked them for it just as well. I think both sides are to full of Partisan crap, and that's why nothing gets done. But my overall views fall more on the liberal side, with sprinkles of old school conservative and Libertarian ...but that's why I am a member of the IP Party, if we had someone for President I would not support Obama most likely, but given my choice is McCain who has failed to show me he would change anything for the better...I see no reason for the Republican party to get 4 more years. And the reason I attack the Right more, is I just think they are wrong on the issues more, if I dont agree with the Dems, I attack them as well. And also its far more often the Republicans or right wingers are the ones who I find insulting me, or my views...rather then useing facts and debating. Thus yes, I do go off on them more....LIke Libs....Libs is a worthless troll me, and shame to you side . I some of you on the right I have never had issue with and just simply gave my view of the facts...And of course I go after NoObama, because I have never seen someone so Bias against someone. Hell I have said more nice things about Bush ....I think its well known where I stand on Him.