The VP Debate thread.

[Andy]

Dems , Clinton 1992 -2000
Bush , Republicans 2000-2008

tell me what side did a better job actually paying for spending? Who actually put a debt in the Debt and who made it 10 times bigger ( not a relay number just saying 10)

Why don't you research this a little bit? Under Clinton, our national debt went from $4 Trillion to more than $5.8 Trillion. The national debt increased every year under Clinton. There was not ONE year in which it did not increase. Not exactly a stunning example of fiscal responsibility is it? Not only that, but it wasn't Clinton or the Democrats that caused the second half of his administration to be better at book keeping.

It was the republican take over of congress, and the "Contract With America" that stated a balanced budget as a goal. If it wasn't for the Democrats attacking them at every turn, there would have been a "Balanced Budget Amendment" that stated if Government doesn't have a Balanced budget, then congress doesn't get paid.

Did government over spend in 2001 - 2008? Yes absolutely. Remember that unlike the do-nothing former president, who allowed a dozen terrorist attacks, Bush has actually done something about it. Unlike Clinton, who used the military repeatedly, without funding it, Bush has rebuilt our military to be able to fight when we need them. Clinton who fired off $1 Million dollar missiles, without replacing them, Clinton who sent troops into Mogadishu without proper support, Clinton who bombed aspirin factories, is nothing like Bush.

Lets not forget the democrats were in control of congress for the first 2 and last 2 years of Bush's administration. Some of the largest bloated pork filled bills to pass during Bush's administration, have been democrat bills. For example, the Farm Subsidies bill. The bill was labeled by CAGW as the new record for the most irresponsible spending bill in history. The bill completely violated the Senates own Pay-Go rule. Bush veto'd it. The Senate over-turned his veto. So who is to blame for massive debt, when democrats are over riding veto's on the most bloated pork filled bill in history?

Let's also not forget that we are still paying for some of the problems caused by Clinton. The brilliant CEO of Fannie Mae, quoted below, was CEO because of Clinton. The housing bubble can be traced to Clinton policies that wanted to expand the number of people able to get loans for homes, despite their lack of credit.

Stop giving simplistic answers to complex questions. Life isn't as simple as...OoooOOooo Clinton caused debt, lower than Bush.

 

[GenSeneca]

Dems , Clinton 1992 -2000
Bush , Republicans 2000-2008

tell me what side did a better job actually paying for spending? Who actually put a debt in the Debt and who made it 10 times bigger ( not a relay number just saying 10)

And since when was I "socialist" now?

By your own admission.... By your support of Socialist policies... By your support of a Socialist Dictator, oops, I mean Messiah.

Republicans came in and took over Congress while billy boy was in office, THEY pushed the welfare reform act that Clinton begruginly signed - and he got all the credit when it worked - and that lead to the fiscal solvency of the Clinton administration.

Contrast that with Bush and the Democrats taking over Congress in '06... We were on track for fiscal solvency until DEMOCRATS began spending zillions of dollars knowing it would be blamed on Bush:

In January 2007, the same month Democrats took control of Congress, CBO projected an $800 billion surplus over the 2008-2017 period. The new report projects a $2.6 trillion deficit over the same period and thus represents a $3.4 trillion projected deterioration of the nation’s finances in 20 months.

Now, you were saying what?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

By your own admission.... By your support of Socialist policies... By your support of a Socialist Dictator, oops, I mean Messiah.

Republicans came in and took over Congress while billy boy was in office, THEY pushed the welfare reform act that Clinton begruginly signed - and he got all the credit when it worked - and that lead to the fiscal solvency of the Clinton administration.

Contrast that with Bush and the Democrats taking over Congress in '06... We were on track for fiscal solvency until DEMOCRATS began spending zillions of dollars knowing it would be blamed on Bush:



Now, you were saying what?

A socialist Dictator now? is it any reason the republican party is such a worthless pile of **** right now? thats the kinda dumb retarded statement that just makes me think more and more its not even worth looks at the Republican party anymore as even a option.

 

[Andy]

A socialist Dictator now? is it any reason the republican party is such a worthless pile of **** right now? thats the kinda dumb retarded statement that just makes me think more and more its not even worth looks at the Republican party anymore as even a option.

I don't see anything that makes the republican party bad. They at least support freedom and capitalism. Obama would support more government control of every aspect of our lives.

I don't think he's a dictator, although there was talk within the democratic party for removing term limits so Clinton could run again, and with Obama clearly trying to pass himself off as the second coming, that's a bit spooky.

What exactly is it about the republicans you are so against?

 

[Bunz]

The man who Palin beat in the gov race is at her party in Alaska and said she was right, she proved him wrong about being qualified to be gov of alaska. its so strange, I thought she was hated in alaska now, but the man she beat is at her party singing her praises with a ton of people.

HUH? Id like to know how you drew this conclusion. Please provide a link as this is certainly news to me. She beat out 4 guys for the Governor spot, none of them are publicly supporting her that I am aware of.

GOP Primary:
Frank Murkowski: hasnt been seen or heard from since his loss in 2006 except for one brief appearance to show his distain for the AGIA process. While he will probably support the GOP ticket as a life long Republican, I think it is safe to assume he despises Sarah.
John Binkley: He is busy working on the campaign for Senator Ted Stevens, while he is on trial. He will likely support the GOP ticket like Frank, but he has shown himself to NOT be a Sarah supporter in-state. This came from him being snubbed for a cabinet position, and probably being a sore loser from 2006. Either way, he has not come out in support of her.

General Election:
Tony Knowles: Former Democratic Governor, a man I also know from playing hockey with his son, Luke. He has basically come out in support of Obama, as one can imagine.
Andrew Halcro: Independant Candidate for Governor in 2006, he has been the main Sarah detractor since her election. He is the one who broke the TrooperGate scandal, questioned the AGIA process and although he is a former GOP State LawMaker and local businessman, has shown to be no friend of Sarah and vice-versa.

So Obamanation, unless there is something you know that I dont, please share it.

 

[GenSeneca]

A socialist Dictator now? is it any reason the republican party is such a worthless pile of **** right now? thats the kinda dumb retarded statement that just makes me think more and more its not even worth looks at the Republican party anymore as even a option.

I corrected myself and referred to him as the Messiah...

I gave up on you.... You are looking for ANY piss, poor, reason to HATE the Republican party and in the process are supporting the corruption that the Democrats are getting away with because of all the Bush Derangement.

Can you DEFEND ANY of the Democrat policies or Legislation that I put in my thread about the JUNK they are passing? I haven't seen it.... Yet you want to give these people the Messiah and a rubber stamp congress - effectively making him dictator of the MOST corrupt and unaccountable CONGRESS IN HISTORY!

To each his own....

 

[Pandora]

HUH? Id like to know how you drew this conclusion. Please provide a link as this is certainly news to me. She beat out 4 guys for the Governor spot, none of them are publicly supporting her that I am aware of.

GOP Primary:
Frank Murkowski: hasnt been seen or heard from since his loss in 2006 except for one brief appearance to show his distain for the AGIA process. While he will probably support the GOP ticket as a life long Republican, I think it is safe to assume he despises Sarah.
John Binkley: He is busy working on the campaign for Senator Ted Stevens, while he is on trial. He will likely support the GOP ticket like Frank, but he has shown himself to NOT be a Sarah supporter in-state. This came from him being snubbed for a cabinet position, and probably being a sore loser from 2006. Either way, he has not come out in support of her.

General Election:
Tony Knowles: Former Democratic Governor, a man I also know from playing hockey with his son, Luke. He has basically come out in support of Obama, as one can imagine.
Andrew Halcro: Independant Candidate for Governor in 2006, he has been the main Sarah detractor since her election. He is the one who broke the TrooperGate scandal, questioned the AGIA process and although he is a former GOP State LawMaker and local businessman, has shown to be no friend of Sarah and vice-versa.

So Obamanation, unless there is something you know that I dont, please share it.

The night of the debate Gretta did a sattelite feed to Wasilla (spelling) for the Palin Party. Palins sister hosted the party, a friend from grade school said she brought the drinks and though I dont remember the guys name he was one of them men she debated to be Gov. he was at the party. I dont have his exact words but he said I thought she did not have the experience to be Gov. I am glad to say I was wrong, she has proved us all wrong. He was at her familys party and cheering for her at the debate. He then went on to talk about how well she debated in the Gov. Race

I can try to find a youtube clip of it, but I just saw it on the news after the debate was over.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Why don't you research this a little bit? Under Clinton, our national debt went from $4 Trillion to more than $5.8 Trillion. The national debt increased every year under Clinton. There was not ONE year in which it did not increase.

Lemme guess......that's what they say, right?

How "odd"! It's lookin' like Reagan/Bush/Bush OWN the Federal-Debt prize!!!

Another guess.....you forgot to post any facts to support your position.....right?

The oddities just-keep-comin'!!!

How 'BOUT allllllllllll-o'-those-jobs Republicans have "created".

 

[Pandora]

HUH? Id like to know how you drew this conclusion. Please provide a link as this is certainly news to me. She beat out 4 guys for the Governor spot, none of them are publicly supporting her that I am aware of.

GOP Primary:
Frank Murkowski: hasnt been seen or heard from since his loss in 2006 except for one brief appearance to show his distain for the AGIA process. While he will probably support the GOP ticket as a life long Republican, I think it is safe to assume he despises Sarah.
John Binkley: He is busy working on the campaign for Senator Ted Stevens, while he is on trial. He will likely support the GOP ticket like Frank, but he has shown himself to NOT be a Sarah supporter in-state. This came from him being snubbed for a cabinet position, and probably being a sore loser from 2006. Either way, he has not come out in support of her.

General Election:
Tony Knowles: Former Democratic Governor, a man I also know from playing hockey with his son, Luke. He has basically come out in support of Obama, as one can imagine.
Andrew Halcro: Independant Candidate for Governor in 2006, he has been the main Sarah detractor since her election. He is the one who broke the TrooperGate scandal, questioned the AGIA process and although he is a former GOP State LawMaker and local businessman, has shown to be no friend of Sarah and vice-versa.

So Obamanation, unless there is something you know that I dont, please share it.

I found part of the party interview on grettas website but they only posted what her brother and sister said. If you can give me the full names of the people she debated in the Gov race I can keep looking.

I did not know I was going to need to prove that I saw him being interviewed so remembering his name was not on my short list. I am sure though that I can find what he said if I have his name. If not I will email gretta and ask where I can find a link.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I corrected myself and referred to him as the Messiah...

I gave up on you.... You are looking for ANY piss, poor, reason to HATE the Republican party and in the process are supporting the corruption that the Democrats are getting away with because of all the Bush Derangement.

Can you DEFEND ANY of the Democrat policies or Legislation that I put in my thread about the JUNK they are passing? I haven't seen it.... Yet you want to give these people the Messiah and a rubber stamp congress - effectively making him dictator of the MOST corrupt and unaccountable CONGRESS IN HISTORY!

To each his own....

yes my piss poor reasons
The Iraq war being missmanaged and based in tell that they at least hyped, at worst lied about.
Massive overspending, while cutting taxes for the Rich
Failing to stop al Qaeda, Bin Laden still alive, and Afghanistan getting worse.
The patriot act
The outing of a CIA Op, and the Republicans in large did not care
They have done nothing at all for health care
Trillion dollar bail out...Pushed by who? That's right Bush and the white House...sadly supported by the Dems and then the Republicans as well when they got tax cuts.


Look at the last 8 years, under your president, and in large Under Republican Rule. Now why in the hell should I want more of that? I gave McCain a shot because I have always respected him, and felt he could be strong on National Security, and help at least some on the Environment...But no again it ended with the Republican Bull about calling the other guy Unamerican, and now basically calling anyone who does not Vote McCain , a blind follower of Obama, and supporting him a a dictatorship. Screw that, if anyone seems to want a one party system where descent is attacked its you and the some Republicans. Im sorry my party does not have a guy running for president, and you only have 2 real choices, and your guy is not it. But feel free to just act like I support everything he says , bow to him and warship him.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I don't see anything that makes the republican party bad. They at least support freedom and capitalism. Obama would support more government control of every aspect of our lives.

I don't think he's a dictator, although there was talk within the democratic party for removing term limits so Clinton could run again, and with Obama clearly trying to pass himself off as the second coming, that's a bit spooky.

What exactly is it about the republicans you are so against?

There was talk from the Republicans about Letting Arnold Run, both where just talk and amounted to nothing. None issues

Why I don't like them? First its not all of them, its just the ones that seem to have taken over the party now. Bible Thumpers, Republicans who spend like, "drunken Sailors" but also want tax cuts all the time , even when we cant pay for what we are spending. Use to be a time when republicans wanted less government, less spending, and to keep the government out of peoples business. Now instead of keep government out, government is in your bedroom. Cut spending? how about record Spending instead? Republicans want to stay out of other nations business unless it was a threat to the US...now we invade for no reason and nation build ..poorly. I guess I just have lost any faith I had left in the party this last 8 years under Bush. I liked Bush I, Voted Perot against Clinton and Dole, and I did not like Gore. Kerry was worth it to get rid of Bush.

And of course the thing that always make me pissed, is the constant attacks by Republicans that somehow not agreeing with them, or being liberal is UnAmerican, and that we don't love America. Just pisses me off to no end.

 

[Pandora]

And of course the thing that always make me pissed, is the constant attacks by Republicans that somehow not agreeing with them, or being liberal is Un-American, and that we don't love America. Just pisses me off to no end.

This is the biggest load of crap that has ever spewed out of your mouth. It is a flat lie and if you ever even for a moment tried to be honest about it you would admit its total BS


No conservative has ever said someone voting for Ross Perot was anti American, no conservative or republican said voting for Ralph Nader was anti American or the constitution party so on and so on.

It’s when people are voting for someone that even HAMAS endorsed, someone that is loved even by terrorist nations that people get called anti American. Hamas endorsed Kerry 4 years ago and Obama this year. Many creepy terrorist connected groups came out for Kerry and come out for Obama. It is totally fair to question when someone who could run our country is endorsed and loved by America hating groups.

When people sing praises and vote for guys who have more support from our enemies than do our friends what do you expect Americans to say…

Talk about crying and whining, that is all you have done since I have come to this place, cry cry cry, people say obama is not a good American cry cry cry people are upset that terrorists endorse him like he can help it or something. Then accuse everyone else of crying.

If you are going to support someone that terrorists supports expect some Americans to say something is wrong with that. And stop for a second and LOOK No one ever called Ron Paul supporters Un-American, no one ever called Nader supporters un-American and so on… they only say that about people who endorse and support candidates who ARE endorsed and supported by TERRORISTS!!!! DUH!!

 

[Andy]

This is the biggest load of crap that has ever spewed out of your mouth. It is a flat lie and if you ever even for a moment tried to be honest about it you would admit its total BS


No conservative has ever said someone voting for Ross Perot was anti American, no conservative or republican said voting for Ralph Nader was anti American or the constitution party so on and so on.

It’s when people are voting for someone that even HAMAS endorsed, someone that is loved even by terrorist nations that people get called anti American. Hamas endorsed Kerry 4 years ago and Obama this year. Many creepy terrorist connected groups came out for Kerry and come out for Obama. It is totally fair to question when someone who could run our country is endorsed and loved by America hating groups.

When people sing praises and vote for guys who have more support from our enemies than do our friends what do you expect Americans to say…

Talk about crying and whining, that is all you have done since I have come to this place, cry cry cry, people say obama is not a good American cry cry cry people are upset that terrorists endorse him like he can help it or something. Then accuse everyone else of crying.

If you are going to support someone that terrorists supports expect some Americans to say something is wrong with that. And stop for a second and LOOK No one ever called Ron Paul supporters Un-American, no one ever called Nader supporters un-American and so on… they only say that about people who endorse and support candidates who ARE endorsed and supported by TERRORISTS!!!! DUH!!

Wow.... I was going to respond... but I can't think of anything you didn't cover....

Nicely done!

 

[Andy]

Bible Thumpers

Ok, what did the evil Bible Thumpers do exactly? Or is it just religious people you dislike? (which is ok! I just don't want to talk about pointless things)

Republicans who spend like, "drunken Sailors" but also want tax cuts all the time , even when we cant pay for what we are spending.

This is too wide an issue for a quick answer, but here's a stab.

If we follow a line of thinking that we should not cut taxes, and always hike taxes, in order to cover what our government spends... then politicians will always over spend, and just stick us tax payers with the bill. After all, they spent it, and we have to cover it. A republican (base, not always leadership), believes it's the governments job to be restrained and only spend the money that they have. Not blow as much money as they choose and then pass tax hikes to cover their bloated budget.

Moreover, it is universally true that taxes and the economy have an adverse relationship. Any in depth detailed study of cutting taxes will show the economy is helped by them. When Bush came into office, he inherited an economy in recession from the prior president. The tax cuts were to help pull our economy out of that recession, and it did.

Now instead of keep government out, government is in your bedroom.

I do not know what that refers to.

Cut spending? how about record Spending instead? Republicans want to stay out of other nations business unless it was a threat to the US...now we invade for no reason and nation build ..poorly.

As for cutting spending, I agree. But I have 2 options. I can vote for the ones who say they support fiscal responsibility, or the ones who openly support more spending. Obviously I have to go for the ones who say they'll cut spending, and hope they follow through. Plus as I have documented before, democrats have had a very large hand in the over spending.

As for the war... sigh... I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I have shown facts and reports, posted links, and all to no avail. It is conclusive that we had good, real, documented intel for going into Iraq. Clinton said it prior to Bush. Bush said it. Hillary said it. The Germans said it. Australia said it. In order for you to not believe what is clearly documented... you basically have to assume half the planet was lying. If you assume that... then clearly I won't be able to convince you of the obvious truth either.

As for rebuilding it poorly... obviously you have not been there. My brother in law was, and he tells how much better and improved things are. Their economy is growing, their government is taking over more and move locations, and their people are very happy with us.

So I really don't know what you are all bent about, except that you just bought a pack of lies, and refused to let go of them.

<omitting the un-american comment since... NoObama did a fine job>

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I have no issue with religious people, well ok some but not most. I have problems with those who run around trying to make the bible the law of the land, act like anyone who does not believe is immoral.

Personally I think anyone who runs around saying the world is 6000 years old, and man was walking around with T+rex...is a idiot. I'm sorry that basic science wins over, literal readings of the Bible. But at least that's not making US Policy ( does make me question there logic though)

And as for Government out of your lives, but now in your bedroom..I ment why do Republicans care who someone sleeps with? I don't care if you want to ban gays from the church marriage, but they should have legal rights to things like medical visitation rights, child custody if other dies, and other legal rights a married couple should have....And the tried to take some old laws off the books, that basically banned some sex acts...family values republicans came out against it, ( I think here they lost so screw them but still ) To often they are trying to make laws out of Values...thinks you learn from family , church, or what have you, but they want in law. Thinks like having the 10 commandments outside a court...how can anyone from some other religion, on a court case that could be Religious, expect a fair hearing if they are not Christian and see that on the court?

As for spending, 2000-2008 ...do I really need to say anything more? Republicans in charge and man could they spend, and spend and spend. what was the debt in 1992 to 2000...then what was it from 2000 till now? I don't want to hear republicans ***** about spending till they show me then can actually cut it, and cut the deficit. Only thing I see them do is cut taxes, and mostly not taxes that effect me.I recall the econ in the 90's I know it today, its not a hard choice ( and yes Clinton gets to much credit for it, but I think Bush's policy are just as much to blame for our bad econ now.

As for Iraq, I Said the intl was bad, I said the Niger Report was a fake when Bush used it as proof, I knew he at best was giving a large exageration about the Tubes ( most said they could not be used for Nukes, only some still said maybe....Bush took those few maybes and made it a clear case for them being correct ) I said Iraq would get in on this, and the did ( I felt it possible they would get alot more involved then they have so far though) They said it would be easy, some said the sunni and shia would not go to civil war, I said that we would be stuck in the middle of a Ethinic/Religion war ...we did and we where lucky that the Sunni in time turned on al Quida, or we still would be. I would have loved to have been wrong about Iraq, but more or less it went down how I said it would, maybe a bit better then I guessed .

And as far as rebuilding? Im sure some areas are, but other areas are still just as bad if not worse then they where when Saddam fell. But it is very lacking still, and its even worse in Afganistan where the attacks of Sept 11 actuly where based, and things are getting worse there.

I was never out on the streets yelling no war, I fully supported Afganistan, if only attacking our not going in harder with more troops and to much letting afgans who we could not trust do alot of the work. Iraq I said if we did , it had to be done all out, not half assed and with a very good plan for securing Iraq after Saddam fell, what i saw was a make it up as we go plan that was lacking troops to maintain security. I said we ran a great risk giving power to Iran, and pushing a greater conflict of Iran vs the Sauds...( so far this has been mild, thank god)

and as for the UnAmerican ....well lets see
McCain said Obama would rather win the election and loss the war...to me that is calling into quesion the Dem Leaders Patriotism.

Because I happen to support Obama, now I am Supporting Dictatorship. Something I would call very UnAmerican. ( well ok the US loves its Dictators ...but not for our self )

And I would love to have had you sit and listen the the **** I was called, and others with me, for not supporting the war on Iraq, or in my case, simply questioning it and asking questions. It was sad really. To me, it seems like when ever the Right does not agree with the left anymore, it just brands what ever idea or position ...as somehow UN American. Maybe you don't see it because its not aimed at you, I don't know, but trust me, I have seen it many times. Way to much .

I may attack someone as partisan, as not knowing the facts, as even just being a idot...But never once have I ever attacked anyone for being UnAmerican or Unpatriotic simply because I don't agree with them.