The Tea Party will change America back to the days of Thomas Jefferson

[Openmind]

You really need to get with the program. You are an obvious Dem partisan.

In reality (something you regularly prove you have no grasp of), both parties have bastardized the Constitution to do whatever they want. To think Rs want to abide by the Constitution as it was written by the Founders, is to be completely delusional. But, you do a good job of presenting DNC talking points.

Living Document means you can change the Constitution to mean anything, which is exactly what both parties have been doing for about 100 years. So in effect, we are being ruled by elitist man and women. I know you are cool with that, but the rest of use prefer individual liberty rather than tyranny.

You might actually read the Constitution. You will find it has a wonderful procedure for change. Its called the Amendment Process.

You have absolutely no understanding of whom I am and what my thinking processes are!

By the way, I am not the one who defends the "right" of the wealthy elite to continue to drain the middle class and the poor of the small amount of wealth they have managed to keep from being redistributed to the wealthy!

Obviously both parties will try to "interpret" and "amend" the constitution to meet their ideologies.

But, it seems that the tea party does want to go back in time. . .So, my points still stand.

 

[Pandora]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I notice once again that openmind is only good at slinging her thoughts out but refuses again to respond to any questions about them. So Ill ask you what she refused to answer....



From the founding of our nation we have allowed people to have religious freedom, even Thomas Jefferson himself said "In the year of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Today that would be enough to get a politician fired yet all the founders spoke that way all the time and did for well over a hundred years after the constitution was written , and all the public buildings were used as churches on sundays for various denominations and to this day religious statues and sayings are all over the public buildings, I dare say every states constitution speaks of religion in some way. I am told Oregon's constitution is the least religious and it even has religious over tones.

Throughout our history kids did plays at school at christmas time and had christmas parties that often if not always had something to do with Jesus

Then all the sudden its wrong bad and against the constitution. Please tell me where in the constitution it prohibits a kid from thanking God on graduation day that they made it to graduation.

Please tell me where the words "separation of church and state" come from


Notice your quote says freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Yet the people are being told every day that what they do is against the constitution if they should pray, thank God or celebrate anything "christian" in any public place, Even groups like the boy scouts are starting to be targeted and they are not a public entity

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I notice once again that openmind is only good at slinging her thoughts out but refuses again to respond to any questions about them. So Ill ask you what she refused to answer....



From the founding of our nation we have allowed people to have religious freedom, even Thomas Jefferson himself said "In the year of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Today that would be enough to get a politician fired yet all the founders spoke that way all the time and did for well over a hundred years after the constitution was written , and all the public buildings were used as churches on sundays for various denominations and to this day religious statues and sayings are all over the public buildings, I dare say every states constitution speaks of religion in some way. I am told Oregon's constitution is the least religious and it even has religious over tones.

Throughout our history kids did plays at christmas time and had christmas parties that often if not always had something to do with Jesus

Then all the sudden its wrong bad and against the constitution. Please tell me where in the constitution it prohibits a kid from thanking God on graduation day that they made it to graduation.

Please tell me where the words "separation of church and state" come from


Notice your quote says freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Yet the people are being told every day that what they do is against the constitution if they should pray, thank God or celebrate anything "Christian" in any public place, Even groups like the boy scouts are starting to be targeted and they are not a public entity

you can't have freedom of Religion..without also Freedom from Religion. And the idea that if the president said something about god he would be fired...you know better...thats complete Bull....Bush used God all the time in speeches..Where people really get nervous is when you start using your personal religion as a bases for US Policy. If you want Religion in your school..go to a Religious school. Public schools are for all...not just people of one faith...and school celebrations should be for all students..not just the ones that belong to the biggest Religious group. The High school football team is for all students...not just Christians...as a kid I recall playing baseball on a team where they all had a big prayer and all that before the game...and stood there standing out like a sore thumb because I was not praying..my religion does not do that. I have been there for 10 mins...I already am a outsider...Now as a adult you may be able to handle that...but to young kids thats tough. Now in this case, it was a private team not a church team so they where free to do what they wanted, I was just not told ahead of time...and I never went to play again...But had that same thing happen at my school team? Then all of the sudden I am the outsider from my own High school baseball team...And sure some kids don't care...but in school...kids are looking for reasons to take a kid down...anything they can use...Kids suck. I would not say I hid that I was not Christian..but I certainly did not want to point out at times that I was not, and I tried to just blend in and figured it was not worth it...I only found out a year ago a friend of mine from back in school , baseball as well, was Muslim ( he was white and did not look Muslim) but turns out he was the whole time...he hid it in school...because it was not worth the crap you got for it ( and this was before Sept 11)

When Christians think about all this Religion and school stuff...they see it only threw the eyes of a Christian kid in a Christian school. Schools have to be there for kids off all faiths...and see it threw all of there eyes...That is why you keep them separate...because you can't equal treatment of your Religion..when the school promote a different one. Just like you can't expect a fair trail that may involve your Religion..when you walk into a court that says it followes a different Religion.

And if you want it to spell it out for you in the constitution word for word..you can have a win...it does not...it also does not say you have a right to privacy...but I recall in other posts you have said you believe you do. the word Guns never appears in the constitution as well.

From Thomas Jefferson "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

the S. Court ruled that this was the clearest known intent of the writters and was used to make the case...as that is what the law is always about..Trying to find out not only what does the law say, but what was the intent. The Right to bear arms...does not say guns...but one can infer that it ment Guns...however there is more Debate about if the intent would fall to all types of guns and guns in all places...thus some work by the judges is needed. I have the Right to bear arms...that does not mean I have the right to walk into the white house with a loaded gun out just because I want to. I have the Right to free speech...but if I grab a megaphone and start yelling as loud as I can in my neighborhood ...guess what...I don't have that right...it does not say that in the constitution Directly..

The Constitution is like the Bible..if there was only one way to view the bible..there would be..one Christian Group. And the same Bible that justified Slavery, killing the Indians, Subjugation of Woman, Burning Witches at the Stake, and the buring and murder of whole towns and cities.....Does it do those things today in the eyes of most? No..did the words change? No...

Also you talk about how as kids , the kids often did plays and stuff that where for Christmas and had Jesus in them...How many non Christians where there? How would you feel if you where Muslim? Or maybe even a Jehovah witness ...( celebrating Christmas is I believe against there religion...not just not part of it ((at least some versions of it))

How many Ramadan Plays did you have? How many Hanuka ones? How many Buddhist Holidays?
Why is it that when Christians say they want this stuff...they say its not about there Religion...yet to not do them...is a attack on there Religion? It can't be both. Is Christmas a Christian Holliday or is it not...you can't have it both ways..

on a side not, Fox's fake war on Christmas is a pure Ratings scare the Christians propaganda piece..Watching Bill O rail against saying happy Holiday vs merry Christmas...when what is that on Fox news gifts? why its not Merry Christmas..but it was Happy hollidays..

also I got yelled at for saying happy holidays to a woman while I was working ...it was not the first time...How the hell am I suppose to know what you celebrate I have seen you in front of me for 30 sec...and I could care less...so to keep Christians happy...I said nothing to them anymore I did not want to offend one of them buy not assuming that theres is the only religion that matters and the only holiday that matters..

And if you are wondering...one of the biggest reasons I will never give Christianity a shot...is because of how it has engrained itself into politics..Keeping the 2 separate, also helps keep Religion from the dirtiness of Politics. The more the Right tries to make the 2 things one...the more I will push away from having anything to do with there Religion.

 

[Pandora]

you can't have freedom of Religion..without also Freedom from Religion. And the idea that if the president said something about god he would be fired...you know better...thats complete Bull....Bush used God all the time in speeches..Where people really get nervous is when you start using your personal religion as a bases for US Policy. If you want Religion in your school..go to a Religious school. Public schools are for all...not just people of one faith...and school celebrations should be for all students..not just the ones that belong to the biggest Religious group. The High school football team is for all students...not just Christians...as a kid I recall playing baseball on a team where they all had a big prayer and all that before the game...and stood there standing out like a sore thumb because I was not praying..my religion does not do that. I have been there for 10 mins...I already am a outsider...Now as a adult you may be able to handle that...but to young kids thats tough. Now in this case, it was a private team not a church team so they where free to do what they wanted, I was just not told ahead of time...and I never went to play again...But had that same thing happen at my school team? Then all of the sudden I am the outsider from my own High school baseball team...And sure some kids don't care...but in school...kids are looking for reasons to take a kid down...anything they can use...Kids suck. I would not say I hid that I was not Christian..but I certainly did not want to point out at times that I was not, and I tried to just blend in and figured it was not worth it...I only found out a year ago a friend of mine from back in school , baseball as well, was Muslim ( he was white and did not look Muslim) but turns out he was the whole time...he hid it in school...because it was not worth the crap you got for it ( and this was before Sept 11)

When Christians think about all this Religion and school stuff...they see it only threw the eyes of a Christian kid in a Christian school. Schools have to be there for kids off all faiths...and see it threw all of there eyes...That is why you keep them separate...because you can't equal treatment of your Religion..when the school promote a different one. Just like you can't expect a fair trail that may involve your Religion..when you walk into a court that says it followes a different Religion.

And if you want it to spell it out for you in the constitution word for word..you can have a win...it does not...it also does not say you have a right to privacy...but I recall in other posts you have said you believe you do. the word Guns never appears in the constitution as well.

From Thomas Jefferson "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

the S. Court ruled that this was the clearest known intent of the writters and was used to make the case...as that is what the law is always about..Trying to find out not only what does the law say, but what was the intent. The Right to bear arms...does not say guns...but one can infer that it ment Guns...however there is more Debate about if the intent would fall to all types of guns and guns in all places...thus some work by the judges is needed. I have the Right to bear arms...that does not mean I have the right to walk into the white house with a loaded gun out just because I want to. I have the Right to free speech...but if I grab a megaphone and start yelling as loud as I can in my neighborhood ...guess what...I don't have that right...it does not say that in the constitution Directly..

The Constitution is like the Bible..if there was only one way to view the bible..there would be..one Christian Group. And the same Bible that justified Slavery, killing the Indians, Subjugation of Woman, Burning Witches at the Stake, and the buring and murder of whole towns and cities.....Does it do those things today in the eyes of most? No..did the words change? No...

Also you talk about how as kids , the kids often did plays and stuff that where for Christmas and had Jesus in them...How many non Christians where there? How would you feel if you where Muslim? Or maybe even a Jehovah witness ...( celebrating Christmas is I believe against there religion...not just not part of it ((at least some versions of it))

How many Ramadan Plays did you have? How many Hanuka ones? How many Buddhist Holidays?
Why is it that when Christians say they want this stuff...they say its not about there Religion...yet to not do them...is a attack on there Religion? It can't be both. Is Christmas a Christian Holliday or is it not...you can't have it both ways..

on a side not, Fox's fake war on Christmas is a pure Ratings scare the Christians propaganda piece..Watching Bill O rail against saying happy Holiday vs merry Christmas...when what is that on Fox news gifts? why its not Merry Christmas..but it was Happy hollidays..

also I got yelled at for saying happy holidays to a woman while I was working ...it was not the first time...How the hell am I suppose to know what you celebrate I have seen you in front of me for 30 sec...and I could care less...so to keep Christians happy...I said nothing to them anymore I did not want to offend one of them buy not assuming that theres is the only religion that matters and the only holiday that matters..

And if you are wondering...one of the biggest reasons I will never give Christianity a shot...is because of how it has engrained itself into politics..Keeping the 2 separate, also helps keep Religion from the dirtiness of Politics. The more the Right tries to make the 2 things one...the more I will push away from having anything to do with there Religion.

First

you never answered my questions GRRRrrrrr...

Second there is a HUGE difference between Thomas Jefferson or any of the presidents in the first hundred years saying the words

In the year of our Lord Jesus Christ


and any modern day president mentioning God.

Do you not see the difference? To say in the year of our lord Jesus Christ is saying that Jesus is OUR lord and to mention God can mean many things to many people.

So, I still stand firm that any modern politician saying in the year of our Lord Jesus Christ.. they would not be a politician long.


Also, the words Separation of church and state are found somewhere, and written by Thomas Jefferson himself.

The Danbury Baptist Association wrote Thomas Jefferson a letter in 1801 and Jefferson replied to them in 1802

They were worried that we would become like England and have a state religion, Jefferson wrote back to them saying I have created a wall of separation.

The letter if read in context assures the baptists that their religion and faith are protected from government interference. But now days its twisted to be something else, the exact opposite of what the original intent was.

You went on in you're reply about not everyone on the foot ball team was a christian and so on, but the question I asked you was WHEN did it stop being ok for a kid to have a nativity play at school? It was ok for over a hundred years, when did it stop being ok for a person to thank god at their graduation? It was ok for hundreds of years but now it's not.



Here is the letter from Jefferson to the Danbury baptists if you want to read it.


Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

 

[Pandora]

And you can have freedom of religion without having freedom from religion.

I am not a muslim or a Jew or a mormon or a Jehovah witness but I have daily contact with all those groups and it never stops me from being free to believe what I do, I don't think it stops them either

 

[pocketfullofshells]

if you want to make a big deal about the president not saying that...really very few people say in the first place anyway..fine go for it...

I bet you can come up with a huge list of things Presidents said then, that they don't say now...oddly many today that they never would have said...I my god the worlds ending and we all must hate Christians!

 

[pocketfullofshells]

And you can have freedom of religion without having freedom from religion.

I am not a muslim or a Jew or a mormon or a Jehovah witness but I have daily contact with all those groups and it never stops me from being free to believe what I do, I don't think it stops them either

and no one stops you from saying a prayer in school as well...so long as your not making it a school activity. But the school aslo never had you come and spend a class period doing a Ramadan Play as well did they? Nope.

 

[steveox]

This thread isnt about jeffersons view of religion.Its about jeffersons view of Crime & Punishment.

 

[Pandora]

and no one stops you from saying a prayer in school as well...so long as your not making it a school activity. But the school aslo never had you come and spend a class period doing a Ramadan Play as well did they? Nope.

so you are still not answering my question

it was alway's fine from the days of the founders who wrote the constitution till a few years and now its illegal. And yes they do stop you from giving a speech that thanks god at your graduation. And It was never part of our history to do a muslim play so its a rotten example. I am giving you actual examples of things that have always been done in our history but are not deemed wrong and I am asking you ...

what happened that made it wrong now when it was fine before

 

[Gipper]

see now your trying to separate 2 things...a logical and legit thing to belive that I don't happen to agree with...and ideas like Obama is a Muslim, that he is not really American, and the simple fact that some of that anger...from some of them is that he is black...

as per the norm, you can't separate ideas..that someone can hold a rational idea about one thing...and also be a idiot and a racist...

Again you spout the DNC line...do you ever stop with the lies? Do you get all your information for them and MSLSD?

Please cite any reliable reports proving the TP is racist. In your little mind, if one dislikes the radical socialist policies of BO, one must be a racist. Now does that make any sense even for you?

You consistently believe whatever the DNC and lib media say. Most of it is lies and yet you are so easily deceived. The lies fit your preconceived notions so you dutifully believe them.

I am begging you to seek alternative news sources. Read the political columns in the Wall Street Journal for a week or two. Listen to Dennis Prager or Laura Ingraham. You will be amazed to learn how the lib media has duped you.

 

[Gipper]

I am sure some tea party people would love to see a time like under Jerfferson...then they could own a few Negros and talk about how great it was to be Free while they went to vote and there wives stayed home without to right to vote...Oh the good old days for old white men.

Just in case our new posters missed this gem from our leading liberal at the HOP, here it is again.

And, please understand that our leading liberal did not back away from these statements even after he was confronted.

So, if you come across him on the forum...remember what you are dealing with.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Just in case our new posters missed this gem from our leading liberal at the HOP, here it is again.

And, please understand that our leading liberal did not back away from these statements even after he was confronted.

So, if you come across him on the forum...remember what you are dealing with.

I am happy that you have decided that I am "the leader" though I think we would have to hold a election for that title...

and of course you skip of the Sarcasm post...because....well you just don't pay attention very well.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

so you are still not answering my question

it was alway's fine from the days of the founders who wrote the constitution till a few years and now its illegal. And yes they do stop you from giving a speech that thanks god at your graduation. And It was never part of our history to do a muslim play so its a rotten example. I am giving you actual examples of things that have always been done in our history but are not deemed wrong and I am asking you ...

what happened that made it wrong now when it was fine before

It was never part of our history to do a Muslim play...well guess what? things change...oddly they did lots of things back then, that we don't do now. back then, they would not do a play for muslims..more likely they would have tried to drive them out of the nation or kill them...You know back in the day, they use to let us kill people for being witches...what ever happen to those good old days of Mindless religion combined with Government power? Back then, Corporations did not have free speech and where not people...

if your whole argument is going to be well traditionally....well do you want to keep all the bad Traditions as well? Is your view...that because something was done in the past and was ok, it means its ok now?

The US is a much more Diverse place today, and a much better place for...anyone who was not a wealthy white male land owner....Back then if you said something about God in church...no one cared...because 90% of the nation was Christian..and frankly if you where not, they could not care less about what you thought or said...today was have far more Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostics, and other faiths...and those faiths are all equal under law...not 2nd class to Christians...( and 2nd class was a step up back then for many.)

This nation was built on a Freedom of Religion, and a Freedom from it..thats why it is today one of the most church going Religious nations in the western world...Because its not Forced on you, its not part of Government...We are not Saudi Arabia where one branch of one faith rules over all...in all matters...

Let me ask you this...why is it so hard for some Christians to except that in a public event like that..being held for everyone...that maybe they can keep there personal religion to them selfs...and speak for the group a whole...not from your own little group. Christians are not the center of the earth and more important then the rest...The same rules that say they should not have a organized prayer before the game...applies to all Religions..they are not special in this...They are not the martyr.. O woe is me, I am so persecuted...get over it..your not...your about the least persecuted faith in the nation.

 

[Pandora]

It was never part of our history to do a Muslim play...well guess what? things change...oddly they did lots of things back then, that we don't do now. back then, they would not do a play for muslims..more likely they would have tried to drive them out of the nation or kill them...You know back in the day, they use to let us kill people for being witches...what ever happen to those good old days of Mindless religion combined with Government power? Back then, Corporations did not have free speech and where not people...

if your whole argument is going to be well traditionally....well do you want to keep all the bad Traditions as well? Is your view...that because something was done in the past and was ok, it means its ok now?

The US is a much more Diverse place today, and a much better place for...anyone who was not a wealthy white male land owner....Back then if you said something about God in church...no one cared...because 90% of the nation was Christian..and frankly if you where not, they could not care less about what you thought or said...today was have far more Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostics, and other faiths...and those faiths are all equal under law...not 2nd class to Christians...( and 2nd class was a step up back then for many.)

This nation was built on a Freedom of Religion, and a Freedom from it..thats why it is today one of the most church going Religious nations in the western world...Because its not Forced on you, its not part of Government...We are not Saudi Arabia where one branch of one faith rules over all...in all matters...

Let me ask you this...why is it so hard for some Christians to except that in a public event like that..being held for everyone...that maybe they can keep there personal religion to them selfs...and speak for the group a whole...not from your own little group. Christians are not the center of the earth and more important then the rest...The same rules that say they should not have a organized prayer before the game...applies to all Religions..they are not special in this...They are not the martyr.. O woe is me, I am so persecuted...get over it..your not...your about the least persecuted faith in the nation.

I respect everything you said but you still are not answering my question

I think you are assuming I am trying to argue one thing is right and another is wrong but I am not trying to argue with you I am just trying to get you to tell me at what point in history did the laws, rules or what ever you want to call them change so it is now wrong or bad or illegal for someone to thank God at a graduation or a kid to do a nativity play at school.

I am not arguing life was better when people could or life is worse now that people cant, I am just asking what event took place or what law was written or what happened to make what was always ok, now bad, wrong or illegal.

Freedom of religion meant one thing for over a hundred years and now freedom of religion means something else.

Something has to have happened, some event or series of events to lead us to this point.

By the way I openly apologized to you in another thread because you were right about something we talked about earlier.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I respect everything you said but you still are not answering my question

I think you are assuming I am trying to argue one thing is right and another is wrong but I am not trying to argue with you I am just trying to get you to tell me at what point in history did the laws, rules or what ever you want to call them change so it is now wrong or bad or illegal for someone to thank God at a graduation or a kid to do a nativity play at school.

I am not arguing life was better when people could or life is worse now that people cant, I am just asking what event took place or what law was written or what happened to make what was always ok, now bad, wrong or illegal.

Freedom of religion meant one thing for over a hundred years and now freedom of religion means something else.

Something has to have happened, some event or series of events to lead us to this point.

By the way I openly apologized to you in another thread because you were right about something we talked about earlier.

I saw that, and nice that once again we found we could unlike some on here...change some views by actually debating.

As far as what seems to be your question...there is no answer to it...there is no day that things changed...Just like Jim crow laws...there was not one day they ended...But over time they where removed and found against the law....now under the larger context of the Constitution...they always should have been...

as for schools...so long as you have small classes in small towns of mostly people of the same religious background..you will find schools trying to keep doing it the old way..but as our nation grows, and becomes more diverse...and people from non Christian backgrounds feel more empowered to actually stand up for there own rights to not be subjugated to feel 2nd class in there own school that they are legally mandated to attend. You see those rules change....but it does not mean that the law changed so much as its actually being enacted now more.

if one wants to pray...do it...just don't try to make it a school event or put it over the loud speaker...If one wants to have a play about Jesus...enjoy , I am sure the local church could do it..If you want to say merry Christmas to people you don't know...go for it...But if I am a company selling goods to people of all faiths because there $ is just as good as the next...I am not going to play favorites and pick one over the others just because they have higher numbers. If you want to thank God for graduation...go for it...just don't do it when your speaking for the whole class...Its your classes graduation, not just yours. ( unless its a really small school of course where maybe its just you) Schools are paid for with public money..and should in that case not be used to promote one religion over others...and the old traditions do in fact promote one over the rest...that was always true...and it still is true...only little by little the rest of the people are getting the freedom to feel like equals...not 2nd class students who's religious views are not the same as the majority.

sorry I can't say on X date like you want...but maybe you get what I am saying here still.