The monstrous Christian / Islamic God

In what ways do we 'sin'? Is not 'sin' builit into our very nature, and if that is true, how can our actions be labeled 'sin'? Do we deserve to be punished, simply for being what we are, if some 'creator' made us the way that we are? In that case, isn't the onus on the creator, rather than on us?

Sin is not built into our nature. But the ability of our flesh to be corrupted by the effects of sin is. And the ability to choose sin is. But no one is without the ability to withstand temptation. The bible often speaks of a sinful nature which means that we have the capacity to sin. We also have the capacity to choose not to sin. That is free will.

If we live in a just world then those who sin should be punished.
 
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With all the injustices in the world i find it hard to believe in an all powerful, all knowing God

http://www.waronwant.org/

If God were to speak and stop all injustice in the next instant. Then unless you are perfect you would no longer be here. A merciful God would not simply cause you to vanish or to stop you from choosing to sin. He would provide a solution of some sort - and that is the theme of the bible.

And I agree that God is not all-powerful and all-knowing in the absolute sense of those words. He is virtually all-powerful and virtually all knowing. But He cannot act against his nature. So for example, God is good and therefore cannot sin. He has a limitation in that He cannot sin.
 
So for example, God is good and therefore cannot sin. He has a limitation in that He cannot sin.
My take, is that if God makes the rules, he deceides what is or is not sin, not that he is "good."

Do you think that God eats meat on Friday?
 
If God were to speak and stop all injustice in the next instant. Then unless you are perfect you would no longer be here. A merciful God would not simply cause you to vanish or to stop you from choosing to sin. He would provide a solution of some sort - and that is the theme of the bible.

And I agree that God is not all-powerful and all-knowing in the absolute sense of those words.

That is a rather sensible and practical POV that I can live with, and find much to agree with, Dr Who, non-Christian and semi-atheit I am, albeit the last couple of your sentences from your quote, which I omitted, are too much for me.
 
Biblical reference is? Also, "Thou shall not kill."

How did you fail to realize that the word you quoted as "kill" obviously means "murder?" We shall not murder. We are obviously allowed to kill because legal capital punishment when just is allowed.

God does not murder so he has not broken that rule. Of course since the rule says "thou" and not "I" He didn't violate it for that reason either.

Moreso, since murder is the killing of a person when it is unlawful, and one reason that it is unlawful according to Jewish law (the only people that law applies to) is that only God or His representatives (i.e. judges) are allowed to take a life.
 
How did you fail to realize that the word you quoted as "kill" obviously means "murder?" We shall not murder. We are obviously allowed to kill because legal capital punishment when just is allowed.

God does not murder so he has not broken that rule. Of course since the rule says "thou" and not "I" He didn't violate it for that reason either.

Moreso, since murder is the killing of a person when it is unlawful, and one reason that it is unlawful according to Jewish law (the only people that law applies to) is that only God or His representatives (i.e. judges) are allowed to take a life.

I'm sorry but that particular commandment conforms with kant's 2nd formulation of the categorical imperative and should be stated as 'thou shall not KILL'.

First, the categorical imperative is defined as an action that accrues to no other good but itself. If capital punishment is indeed moral, then, the command not to kill becomes only a subjective imperative, one that accrues to a higher good -- which contradicts the categorical imperative itself.

Second, the right to life is an INALIENABLE right. Such a right is INDEPENDENT OF POSITIVE LAW. If the commandment is indeed about murder, then some forms of killing, that which is sanctioned by the state, becomes permissible, hence contradicting the nature of inalienable rights.
 
I'm sorry but that particular commandment conforms with kant's 2nd formulation of the categorical imperative and should be stated as 'thou shall not KILL'.

First, the categorical imperative is defined as an action that accrues to no other good but itself. If capital punishment is indeed moral, then, the command not to kill becomes only a subjective imperative, one that accrues to a higher good -- which contradicts the categorical imperative itself.

Second, the right to life is an INALIENABLE right. Such a right is INDEPENDENT OF POSITIVE LAW. If the commandment is indeed about murder, then some forms of killing, that which is sanctioned by the state, becomes permissible, hence contradicting the nature of inalienable rights.
Yah, so there!, DrWho!
 
I'm sorry but that particular commandment conforms with kant's 2nd formulation of the categorical imperative and should be stated as 'thou shall not KILL'.

First, the categorical imperative is defined as an action that accrues to no other good but itself. If capital punishment is indeed moral, then, the command not to kill becomes only a subjective imperative, one that accrues to a higher good -- which contradicts the categorical imperative itself.

Second, the right to life is an INALIENABLE right. Such a right is INDEPENDENT OF POSITIVE LAW. If the commandment is indeed about murder, then some forms of killing, that which is sanctioned by the state, becomes permissible, hence contradicting the nature of inalienable rights.

An inalienable right is one that does not comes from men. It would thus have to appeal to a God or to a moral order.

The declaration of Independence says that all men are endowed by their creator with certain rights among them being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In short, no man has the authority to take away what God has given.

Which goes back to what I was saying. God cannot be guilty of breaking a law when He is the authority upon which it is based. God has a right to take away your physical life as He has done to 100% of the worlds past population so far.

But God can also give men authority to take life under some circumstances - a just war, just capital punishment, and self-defense are three examples. And all three are upheld by our courts as valid and not opposed to the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and all three are approved of in the bible and not considered to be a violation of the commandment not to kill. Our legal system does mirror the bible to a great degree.

If that commandment is indeed about murder, and not just killing, then states derive the ability to make exceptions by the same authority that man claims the right to begin with. If the commandment is about just killing then the bible contradicts itself when it commands killing and the state which actually does base current law on the bible (though some would not like to believe that) must appeal to a moral order or to an unnamed God and not to the God of the bible. Which God or order do YOU think the Founding Fathers appealed to?

They appealed to John Lock of course, and he said:

"The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it,
which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law,
teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being
equal and independent, no one ought to harm another
in his life, health, liberty, or possessions:
for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent,
and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one
sovereign master, sent into the world by his order,
and about his business; they are his property,
whose workmanship they are, made to last
during his, not one another’s pleasure...

Every one...may not, unless it be to do justice
on an offender, take away, or impair the life,
or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty,
health, limb, or goods of another.

God hath certainly appointed government to restrain
the partiality and violence of men."
http://www.avantrex.com/essay/freetalk.html

In other words Locke is saying that men ought not to be harmed because they are the property of God. Which squares with the bible when it talks about the time David committed adultery and then murdered a man. David responds and says: "I have sinned against the Lord." earlier when Joseph is asked to commit adultery he answers: "How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?"

Both man's law and Man's inalienable rights derive it's authority from God and the necessity to not sin against God.

Many are trying to change that, but so far the history of the world shows us that the results are far more detrimental then the results of recognizing God's sovereignty.
 
02-26-2009, 12:55 PM #80
Dr.Who
Senior Member

...So for example, God is good and therefore cannot sin. He has a limitation in that He cannot sin...


Re "Mercifulness of God"
Originally Posted by dahermit
My take, is that if God makes the rules, he decides what is or is not sin, not that he is "good."
Originally Posted by Dr.Who
let me repharase it:
God cannot make a rule against sin that he can break.
Re: "Thou shall not kill"
Which goes back to what I was saying. God cannot be guilty of breaking a law when He is the authority upon which it is based. God has a right to take away your physical life as He has done to 100% of the worlds past population so far.

Dr.Who, you seem to have forgotten that the post was about how merciful God is. Now, you seem to be agreeing with me that he is not so much as merciful as he makes the rules and he kills.
 
Which goes back to what I was saying. God cannot be guilty of breaking a law when He is the authority upon which it is based. God has a right to take away your physical life as He has done to 100% of the worlds past population so far.

Assuming for a moment that god is responsible for death -- rather than an inherent part of the human condition -- then he takes your (physical) life and gives you back something infinitely better. So, you have a situation wherein the author of moral law is both transcendent and conforming to it.

But the point is so much better explained by jp2 in his book crossing the threshold of hope, answering the question -- what does 'to save' mean:

'To save means to liberate from evil.

This does not refer only to social evils, such as injustice, coercion, exploitation. Nor does it refer only to disease, catastrophes, natural cataclysms, and everything that has been considered disaster in the history of humanity.

To save means to liberate from radical, ultimate evil. Death itself is no longer that kind of evil, if followed by the Resurrection. And the Resurrection comes about through the work of Christ. Through the work of the Redeemer death ceases to be an ulitmate evil; it becomes subject to the power of life.'

pp 69-70
 
But God can also give men authority to take life under some circumstances - a just war, just capital punishment, and self-defense are three examples. And all three are upheld by our courts as valid and not opposed to the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and all three are approved of in the bible and not considered to be a violation of the commandment not to kill. Our legal system does mirror the bible to a great degree.

If that commandment is indeed about murder, and not just killing, then states derive the ability to make exceptions by the same authority that man claims the right to begin with. If the commandment is about just killing then the bible contradicts itself when it commands killing and the state which actually does base current law on the bible (though some would not like to believe that) must appeal to a moral order or to an unnamed God and not to the God of the bible. Which God or order do YOU think the Founding Fathers appealed to?

Again, I defer to the words of jp2. While he was speaking against abortion, it could easily be seen as the defense of EVERY life:

'...Anyone can see that the alternative here is only apparent. It is not possible to speak of the right to choose when a clear moral evil is involved, when what is at stake is the commandment Do no kill!

Might the commandment allow of exception? The answer in and of itself is no, since even the hypothesis of legitimate defense, which never concerns an innocen but always and only an unjust aggressor, must respect the principle that moralists call the principium inculpatae tutelae (the principle of nonculpable defense). In order to be legitimate, that 'defense' must be carried out in a way that causes the least damage and, if possible, saves the life of th aggressor.'

Clearly, one cannot speak of state-sanctioned murder such as capital punishment since an incarcerated convict presents no imminent threat to the state. And a war is only justified in defense of the lives of a state's citizens -- and even in such a case, the life of the aggressor still needs to be defended.
 
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They appealed to John Lock of course, and he said:

"The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it,
which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law,
teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being
equal and independent, no one ought to harm another
in his life, health, liberty, or possessions:
for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent,
and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one
sovereign master, sent into the world by his order,
and about his business; they are his property,
whose workmanship they are, made to last
during his, not one another’s pleasure...

Every one...may not, unless it be to do justice
on an offender, take away, or impair the life,
or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty,
health, limb, or goods of another.

God hath certainly appointed government to restrain
the partiality and violence of men."
http://www.avantrex.com/essay/freetalk.html

You are correct. John locke, like his fellow social contract theorists (hobbes and rousseau), are proponents of capital punishment and 'just' wars.

But, the above passage you provided comes from his 2nd treatise of civil government. For all intents and purposes, his treatise was about politics, not ethics. And if there is indeed such at thing as a social contract ethics, it is best explained in thomas hobbes' leviathan. Hobbes' ethical conception is one that is inseperable from the notion of ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY invested on the apparatus of the body politic -- the state. Certainly, an individuals right to life is subordinate to sovereignty, the exercise of which is justified by the common good.

Speaking exclusively of locke's treatise, however, I note that an individual's life as well as the productive potential of his labor is defined as property. And it is the protection of this 'property' that is the single most important motivation for one to join the social contract. And while incarceration alone prevents an individual from the enjoyment of his (material) property, especially those that are real or immovable, it does not prevent him from enjoying his life, or certain parts of it. Same can be said about most FUNDAMENTAL rights, the right of thought for instance.

From the nature of inalienable rights (the right to life being one of them), it is clear that they are INSEPERABLE FROM THE HUMAN PERSON. Hence, they are not, by the argument, subject to the social contract.

And, sure enough, excluding capital punishment DOES NOT render the social contract theory defective.
 
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