The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative action?

[PLC1]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Seems like it. Would you care to explain, Top Gun, or have you abandoned the thread?

Agreed completely. Why anyone would be against "Loser Pays" even is beyond me.

Anyone who makes a living prosecuting questionable lawsuits would vehemently oppose "loser pays", as that would be a threat to his livelihood. Moreover, such people are called "lawyers", and they donate to politics and therefore have power.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Absolutely there are times when the legal remedy for something is to penalize the guilty party and/or their entire organization or give advantage or compensation to the damaged .

CNHander,

Top Gun thinks you are guilty of something and therefore deserve to be discriminated against but he won't say what that something is that you have done.

Seems like it. Would you care to explain, Top Gun, or have you abandoned the thread?

To special legislation we are generally averse, lest a principle of favoritism should creep in and pervert that of equal rights. — Jefferson

The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. — Jefferson

To unequal privileges among members of the same society the spirit of our nation is, with one accord, adverse. — Jefferson

Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality. -- MLK

In the end antiblack, antifemale, and all forms of discrimination are equivalent to the same thing - antihumanism. -- Shirley Chisholm (First black woman elected to Congress in 1924)

 

[KingClovis]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

The new popular racism is anti-White. It's perpetrated by nearly everyone, especially Whites themselves. It's a wildly exaggerated, radicalized, dangerously self-destructive expression of White-guilt. It's insane, and a force to be opposed, for the sake of America's future.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

What is CNHander guilty of?

It's not Chandler specifically it was the White establishment.

There were indisputably major damages purposely inflicted by a White government on Black people. And like we have a tobacco industry pay out to states for the deaths they caused long ago, in the case of Civil rights they decided to go the education route.

Instead of putting them on a reservation of their own or giving cash & private property reparations the White government choose to set aside chances for Blacks to go to college hence raising themselves up. And let's not forget this isn't just a slavery issue at all. The Civil Rights struggle was only 40 years ago. During my generation.

And here's a couple very telling things that point out just how hypocritical and in some cases (not all but some) racist people really are being when they search for that "it's not equal treatment card" only when it involves affirmative action and Black people.

Legacy enrollment: At the more elite school's of higher learning almost ALL WHITE! A Black could work hard to be qualified to enroll there, score higher on their SAT/ACT scores and be better or equal in every other way and the mere fact the White kid's father went there moves the White kid to the front & gets special consideration for enrollment.

Sports: As someone who's coached I have other coach friends a couple coaching in college. School is about learning and getting an education first & foremost. Buuut... the schools will take a good athlete of any color and put them under their wing and give them a full compliment of free special tutors, intervene with professors, get special extra credit & make up work to help them pass classes, allow them to take special make up tests.

And this has nothing to do with the athletic scholarship they earned. This is all EXTRA treatment. And the majority still never graduate. This is nothing more than discriminating against every single academically borderline student that goes to that school that just happens not to play sports.

Where's the outrage here. How come we aren't having a meltdown over how terrible these discriminations are? Simple... you can't just blame the Black guy so it's OK.

You don't have to scratch very far under the surface to see the underlying racism Conservatives often carry with them... all you have to do is look at the whole picture and it can be kind of an ugly 8x10 glossy.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

It's a pretty big deal in broad policy terms, but will have only a small to medium effect on my life.

That's what I'm saying... on a case per case basis it's not that big of a deal. Everybody with the grades can still go to a great college and achieve great things.

Eagles don't flock you find them one at a time.

Be an eagle my friend. You really need to ask yourself this. If a Black student getting into Stanford over you even though Legacy enrollment brings in almost all Whites and Athletics brings in hosts of academically under achievers of all races over you all the time... but you only focus on the race issue... perhaps you were never really an eagle in the first place.

If not being picked to go to Stanford is the worst thing that ever happens to you then you are indeed a lucky man. So many went through far, far more just to go to any school that wasn't dirt poor second rate and segregated.

But by the grace of God that could have been you.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

It's not Chandler specifically it was the White establishment.

I see, he's guilty of being white and therefore deserves to be discriminated against for the sins of other whites long since dead. Thanks for establishing your own racist views here for all to see.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

I see, he's guilty of being white and therefore deserves to be discriminated against for the sins of other whites long since dead. Thanks for establishing your own racist views here for all to see.

No, thanks you for expressing your perpetually racist view that Whites should be able to commit any crime onto society, target a specific race of people in America and institutionally, governmentally, inhumanly & purposely hold them down so that they can not acheive... and have no consequences whatsoever.

Even if it's only just seeing to it that some tiny amount of the systemic educational harm is addressed.

The Lunatic Right... if you ain't White you ain't Right.

The facts contained herein don't lie...

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

No, thanks

Feel free to continue to lie about my being a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe etc., I have long since abandoned any expectation of honesty from you.

You support discrimination based on such things as race and sex.

You support punishing innocent people who had nothing to do with prior injustices.

Democrats have a long history of racism and never abandoned their infatuation with discrimination.

Diversity and Multiculturalism: The New Racism
By Michael S. Berliner, Ph.D., and Gary Hull, Ph.D.

Is ethnic diversity an "absolute essential" of a college education? UCLA's Chancellor Charles Young thinks so. Ethnic diversity is clearly the purpose of affirmative action, which Young is defending against a long-overdue assault. But far from being essential to a college education, such diversity is a sure road to its destruction. "Ethnic diversity" is merely racism in a politically correct disguise.

"Diversity" as Doublespeak for Ideological Conformity
by Walter Williams

Diversity is simply the old racism in a new guise, spiced up with a touch of sexism. Diversity is a call for race-conscious decisions in hiring, promotion and college admittance policy. Diversity management success is measured by the numbers: How many minorities or women are employed, promoted or enrolled? Wrong numbers invite the wrath of the state.

At colleges, diversity doesn't mean political diversity. It is by no means unusual to find colleges where the bulk of the faculty -- sometimes 80 percent or 90 percent -- is registered Democrat. In some academic departments, such as philosophy, history and political science, it is by no means rare to find 100 percent of the faculty is registered Democrat.

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Blacks
by Thomas Sowell

No issue has been more saturated with dishonesty than the issue of racial quotas and preferences, which is now being examined by the Supreme Court of the United States. Many defenders of affirmative action are not even honest enough to admit that they are talking about quotas and preferences, even though everyone knows that that is what affirmative action amounts to in practice.

...

When any policy can only be defended by lies and duplicity, there is something fundamentally wrong with that policy. Virtually every argument in favor of affirmative action is demonstrably false. It is the grand fraud of our time.

SINS OF ADMISSION
Dinesh D'Souza

Even taking into account other factors for leaving college, such as financial hardship, the data leave little doubt that preferential admissions seriously exacerbate what universities euphemistically term "the retention problem." An internal report that Berkeley won't release to the public shows that, of students admitted through affirmative action who enrolled in 1982, only 22 percent of Hispanics and 18 percent of blacks had graduated by 1987. Blacks and Hispanics not admitted through preferential programs graduated at the rates of 42 and 55 percent respectively.

Although most universities do everything they can to conceal the data about preferential admissions and dropout rates, administrators will acknowledge the fact that a large number of minority students who stay in college experience severe academic difficulties. These classroom pressures, compounded by the social dislocation that many black and Hispanic students feel in the new campus environment, are at the root of the serious racial troubles on the American campus.

Vicious Academic Racists Take On "The Asian Menace" at The University of California
by Walter Williams

Ward Connerly, former University of California Regent, has an article, "Study, Study, Study -- A Bad Career Move" in the June 2, 2009 edition of Minding the Campus (www.mindingthecampus.com) that should raise any decent American's level of disgust for what's routinely practiced at most of our universities. Mr. Connerly tells of a conversation he had with a high-ranking UC administrator about a proposal that the administrator was developing to increase campus diversity. Connerly asked the administrator why he considered it important to tinker with admissions instead of just letting the chips fall where they may. His response was that that unless the university took steps to "guide" admissions decisions, the University of California campuses would be dominated by Asians. When Connerly asked, "What would be wrong with that?", the UC administrator told him that Asians are "too dull -- they study, study, study." Then he said to Connerly, "If you ever say I said this, I will have to deny it." Connerly did not reveal the administrator's name. It would not have done any good because it's part of a diversity vision shared by most college administrators.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Feel free to continue to lie about my being a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe etc...

OK but that's lying nor a tough assignment.

And FYI we all know that many Democrats were big against the Blacks like up until about half a century ago. We all know about Democrats like George Wallace and such nobody has ever denied that. But the Democrats also had the most important people in President Kennedy and his brother and Attorney General Bobby Kennedy fighting against the Conservative Democrats like Governor Wallace and pushing for Civil Rights.

After that fight, after 1964 the bases of the two Parties changed. They did a complete 180.

Strom Thurmond is a good example:

Thurmond represented South Carolina in the United States Senate from 1954 to April 1956 and November 1956 to 2003, at first as a Democrat and after 1964 as a Republican, switching parties as the conservative base shifted.

Thurmond supported racial segregation with the longest filibuster ever conducted by a single Senator, speaking for 24 hours and 18 minutes in an unsuccessful attempt to derail the Civil Rights Act of 1957. Cots were brought in from a nearby hotel for the legislators to sleep on while Thurmond rambled on about random things, including his grandmother's biscuit recipe. Other Southern Senators, who had agreed as part of a compromise not to filibuster this bill, were upset with Thurmond because they thought his defiance made them look bad to their constituents.

Parties change. It isn't what they were at one time back in history it's what they are now. Now is NOW! And the Radical Right is now an anti-Black, anti-minorities group.

 

[asur]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CN Handler - You may be only starting your journey in life.

I'm suspicious about your eagle claim. You would already know if you
went to a diverse high school, that being a white male is a disadvantage.
If you ever attended award ceremonies, you would notice how many
awards are provided strictly to minority students. When I say minority
I mean "black or hispanic". For some reason asians, jews, etc. don't qualify
for these awards, where I live. Yet I can assure they should!

Well plenty of general awards are given out, but there are no "white awards".
So if you weren't lucky enough to qualify for the general ones. you will
also have less to potentially to put on that college application.


This racial AA crap has been going on since your parents time, so
any eagle scout you should know this.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

OK but that's lying nor a tough assignment.

Keep the personal attacks coming... That's all you have and your only purpose for posting.

After that fight, after 1964 the bases of the two Parties changed. They did a complete 180.

Wrong as usual, the democrats went the other way on discrimination by supporting racial quotas and affirmative action while the Republicans remained committed to the equal rights and equal treatment under the law that they championed with the '64 civil rights legislation.

 

[asur]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CN Handler - You might consider this:

When you do go to a college, look around for the various organizations
you can join. There will be an Hispanic Group, Gay Group, Black Group,
etc. Try to find a White Group and you won't. They aren't allowed, so you
will have to join one of the liberal groups. Scouting groups are not allowed on
many Colleges. Check your college and see if I'm not right.

It can be a lonely place on campus for a white male.
If you are conservative, believe in hard work and equal treatment, you will probably be alone. Even your professors will usually amaze you with their liberal views.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Keep the personal attacks coming... That's all you have and your only purpose for posting.

"OK but that's not lying nor a tough assignment" is a personal attack? On what planet? You were the one pointing the finger. I was merely correcting you and pointing it back to the Republicants last 40 years to date of anti-minority behavior.

Wrong as usual, the democrats went the other way on discrimination by supporting racial quotas and affirmative action while the Republicans remained committed to the equal rights and equal treatment under the law that they championed with the '64 civil rights legislation.

The bill was introduced by President John F. Kennedy in his civil rights speech of June 12, 1963, in which he asked for legislation "giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public—hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments," as well as "greater protection for the right to vote."

He then sent a bill to Congress on June 19. Emulating the Civil Rights Act of 1875, Kennedy's civil rights bill included provisions to ban discrimination in public accommodations, and to enable the U.S. Attorney General to join in lawsuits against state governments which operated segregated school systems, among other provisions. But it did not include a number of provisions deemed essential by civil rights leaders including protection against police brutality, ending discrimination in private employment, or granting the Justice Department power to initiate desegregation or job discrimination lawsuits.

Here we'll all watch the Republicants be called out by name together...

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

You were the one pointing the finger.

 

[CNHander]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Yeah, too many personal attacks going on here. Oh well.

Affirmative action necessarily hurts one group at the expense of another simply on the basis of race. Despite apparently supporting equality, Top Gun never acknowledges that by making one group (African-Americans) artificially privileged through AA, that the other group (Whites, others) is necessarily discriminated against due to no fault of their own. Framing the problem from your point of view doesn't make it any less of a problem. Since it seems that he is unwilling to state or even accept that rather obvious point, it appears that no progress can be made. I came here to learn a different perspective on AA, but I cannot be persuaded by one who cannot (or does not) even acknowledge the quite obvious downsides to AA.

Oh, and for the record, I think that putting together sports and education was a terrible idea in the first place. Sure, school athletes are cool, but universities should always keep in mind that education is the first priority. It's much more important for someone to be able to grasp basic logical argument, for instance, than to be able to kick or carry a piece of rubber around. So I completely agree with you; sports and athletes is not near deserving of the special treatment it receives from universities.

Be an eagle my friend. You really need to ask yourself this. If a Black student getting into Stanford over you even though Legacy enrollment brings in almost all Whites and Athletics brings in hosts of academically under achievers of all races over you all the time... but you only focus on the race issue... perhaps you were never really an eagle in the first place.

Suggesting that I am not deserving of my Eagle rank, a badge I worked hundreds of hours for (in which I helped my community significantly, in addition to much other personal effort) because we disagree on a minor political issue is rather presumptuous, I would think, in addition to perhaps being quite rude, however inadvertently. (Yes, this is a very minor issue)

Also, in this post, you seem to have assumed that I focus on the race issue and that I don't care about legacy admissions. Perhaps you didn't carefully read post#56, previously in this thread, in which I said that legacy admissions are even worse than affirmative action. The reasons I decided to rail against affirmative action here instead of legacy admission were:
(1) This is a political forum. AA is a politically charged topic; legacy admissions are not, or to a much lesser extent.
(2) I had a personal experience that proved to me that, in at least my own personal case, AA resulted in an unjust outcome. I had no personal experience with legacy admissions.
(3) Overall, AA is a much more discussed topic than legacy admissions, and people have much, much more diversely supported beliefs on AA than on legacy admissions. In short, AA is not a small and easy topic whose debate can be resolved in a couple of sentences; legacy enrollment is, for the most part.

There were indisputably major damages purposely inflicted by a White government on Black people. And like we have a tobacco industry pay out to states for the deaths they caused long ago, in the case of Civil rights they decided to go the education route.

Instead of putting them on a reservation of their own or giving cash & private property reparations the White government choose to set aside chances for Blacks to go to college hence raising themselves up. And let's not forget this isn't just a slavery issue at all. The Civil Rights struggle was only 40 years ago. During my generation.

I've basically responded to these before but you haven't actually come straight and addressed the issue at hand with them... see my Post#56 in this thread...