The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative action?

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CN, I have pulled this quote from Top Gun's post because it cuts to the heart of what I have been saying:

Affirmative action opened up doors and gave young Black men & women hope that if they worked hard they would get an opportunity to go to college... a very reasonable, fair and just remedy to attempt to bring up a race that was intentionally and wrongly kept down and out.

The Civil Rights act and 13th-15th amendments to the Constitution are what opened doors and created equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

Top Gun is a Progressive. He is arguing that two wrongs make a right, that the only way to fix discrimination is through discrimination and that such discrimination is "Fair and Just"... As a rational individual that believes in the kind of equality that Martin Luther King spoke about, I find nothing "Fair and Just" about the practice of discrimination, regardless of who benefits from the practice.

Whether your race plays a big role or a very little role in how you are treated under the law is irrelevence of scale, the fact that race is considered at all is unjust. We should be judged by the content of our character and not by the color of our skin.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CN, I have pulled this quote from Top Gun's post because it cuts to the heart of what I have been saying:


The Civil Rights act and 13th-15th amendments to the Constitution are what opened doors and created equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

Top Gun is a Progressive. He is arguing that two wrongs make a right, that the only way to fix discrimination is through discrimination and that such discrimination is "Fair and Just"... As a rational individual that believes in the kind of equality that Martin Luther King spoke about, I find nothing "Fair and Just" about the practice of discrimination, regardless of who benefits from the practice.

Whether your race plays a big role or a very little role in how you are treated under the law is irrelevence of scale, the fact that race is considered at all is unjust. We should be judged by the content of our character and not by the color of our skin.

That would be fine were it true.

However those pesky facts always slap back.

The facts: The 13th for instance was in 1862. Rampant racial discrimination an organized & intentional holding down of one race over another persisted for like a century past that date.

So it's not 2 wrongs make a right. It's do you see the injustice and do you want to try and offer some help toward education and self betterment to the race that was all along severely held back educationally & oppressed?

Or do you happen to be on the side unaffected and offer a hearty... to bad... as total conclusion to the matter?

We're just on different sides here.

I'm glad to be on the side of affirmative action under these circumstances... because I'd hope for the same for me if the tables were turned.

 

[asur]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CNHandler - Look at the words from the Supreme Court nominee and RACIST pig the Democrats and Obama are supporting as a prime example.

Here's a quote from the RACIST SotoMayer herself.

"I am a product of affirmative action". I was admitted to two Ivy League schools despite scoring lower on standardized tests than many classmates, but I attribute this to "cultural biases" that are "built into testing."

If you look at how she has commented on cases involving race and skin color, she has always considered a person's skin color the deciding factor. This is just a sad fact.

Has anyone ever proven any college admissions tests are culturally biased?
Of course not and it's liberal hogwash. But they have to make some up some
song and dance, rather than directly admit they just handle admissions unfairly.
I mean why should Latinos get special treatment over Asians, Whites or others?

Now SOTOMAYER is backed by the Latino groups and they support her nomination
because of race. Were she a white male, there would not be such support.
You know this is true in your heart.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

So it's not 2 wrongs make a right.

Were minorities discriminated against? YES

Was Affirmative Action created as a reaction to that discrimination? YES

Does Affirmative Action discriminate based on race? YES

Do you support Affirmative Action? YES

Ergo, you support policies that discriminate based on race and you're only rational for that position is that such a policy aims to correct the problems of discrimination based on race: two wrongs make a right.

 

[Andy]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

CNHandler - Look at the words from the Supreme Court nominee and RACIST pig the Democrats and Obama are supporting as a prime example.

Here's a quote from the RACIST SotoMayer herself.

"I am a product of affirmative action". I was admitted to two Ivy League schools despite scoring lower on standardized tests than many classmates, but I attribute this to "cultural biases" that are "built into testing."

If you look at how she has commented on cases involving race and skin color, she has always considered a person's skin color the deciding factor. This is just a sad fact.

Has anyone ever proven any college admissions tests are culturally biased?
Of course not and it's liberal hogwash. But they have to make some up some
song and dance, rather than directly admit they just handle admissions unfairly.
I mean why should Latinos get special treatment over Asians, Whites or others?

Now SOTOMAYER is backed by the Latino groups and they support her nomination
because of race. Were she a white male, there would not be such support.
You know this is true in your heart.

this is a bit sick. We are actually trying to put someone on the supreme court who openly admits that if she had tried to advance without an unequal playing field, she would have lost. She's in essence admitting there are others much better able to do her job, and she's ok being advanced by politics rather than merit.

 

[top gun]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Were minorities discriminated against? YES

Was Affirmative Action created as a reaction to that discrimination? YES

Does Affirmative Action discriminate based on race? YES

Do you support Affirmative Action? YES

Ergo, you support policies that discriminate based on race and you're only rational for that position is that such a policy aims to correct the problems of discrimination based on race: two wrongs make a right.

Not at all true. Two wrongs don't make a right??? This is not a case of some child like parable such as "it's not good to tattle".

Absolutely there are times when the legal remedy for something is to penalize the guilty party and/or their entire organization or give advantage or compensation to the damaged .

Often when Mafia figures or Outlaw Motorcycle gangs are busted under the RICO ACT their hierarchy goes down just for being the leaders of the organization. They personally may not have committed a murder or anything else. The idea is to penalize the organization for allowing something they knew was wrong to go on whether a particular individual did it or not.

Same thing with corporations just like the tobacco industry. They've had to pay out huge sums to the states for endangering a particular group damaged (in this case smokers). Most of those original smokers were far dead and gone at the time of the tobacco settlement.

I think we have now come a long way. I would even go so far as to say in my opinion affirmitive action for college admissions could be ended at the end of President Obama's 2nd term and I'd be fine with it.

 

[asur]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

It's sad to note how consumed with the color of people's skin SotoMayer has been over the years.

Now imagine if the KKK openly supported a white Supreme
Court nominee and joined with SkinHeads in pushing this racist white boy, who believed
blacks and latinos should strand behind white folk when it comes to opportunity.

Just reverse the skin color and that' what we have today.
Doubt me? Check this news from 7/11/2009:

On Saturday, NAACP officials meeting in New York for their centennial celebration addressed Sotomayor's link to LatinoJustice PRLDEF.

"Today, the NAACP is standing with us in our efforts to ensure that Sonia Sotomayor is confirmed," Perales told a news conference.

His group points to suits like Aspira vs. New York City Board of Education as among its biggest accomplishments, forcing city schools to implement bilingual education for non-English speaking students.

Another suit against the city's police department brought about an increase in the number of Latino officers in the police force. The group mounted a successful legal challenge in 1981 that postponed city elections over concerns about redistricting.

Sotomayor held leadership roles on the legal defense fund's board from 1980 to 1992, starting soon after she graduated from law school and began working, leaving it when she became a federal judge. Perales has described her role as helping with fundraising and setting policy and said she was not directly involved with the group's legal arguments and activities.

In that period, the group brought several lawsuits in which minority workers claimed discriminatory treatment that kept them from jobs or promotions.


Now you see why I say SotoMayer is a RACIST!

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Absolutely there are times when the legal remedy for something is to penalize the guilty party and/or their entire organization or give advantage or compensation to the damaged .

What is CNHander guilty of?

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

What is CNHander guilty of?

Top Gun... Still waiting for you to answer that question.

 

[asur]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

What is CNHander guilty of?

Well if we are to believe him, it's that he's white.

If he ever has kids, he better hope they are black or latino.
If they are mixed he should claim they are Black or Latino.

The white kids coming up in America will be at a disadvantage
when it comes to jobs and opportunity.

It's called CHANGE!

Do you know any white kids that got a Stimulus job?
Of course not, but then you

 

[CNHander]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Well it's either not that big a deal or it is... pick one. The fact is over all the years of affirmative action there's been a great number of people that as a specific race that were intentionally held back my another specific race that were given an opportunity to go to college, work hard to get the grades & stay in school hence bringing up not only them but their entire families way of life... and that my friend is a very fair and just thing indeed.

It's a pretty big deal in broad policy terms, but will have only a small to medium effect on my life.

The rest of your post is just repeats of what you've said before, which I have replied to, and again, by leaving out the downside of AA (yet again...) you are misrepresenting the issue.

And trust me that's not what's happening at Stanford... and you know it.

I never said it was. It is happening at other schools that practice AA.

All that matters is that I was somewhat more qualified than my friend and yet he was accepted while I was rejected.

Then there's no great disparity. If he were that close to you and was one lucky enough to get a chance due to affirmative action that's the intended purpose. It's certainly not like just because you're Black you're guaranteed getting into college... come on.

In broad terms, if A is more qualified for something than B then A is more deserving of it than B. This didn't happen for me. I am fully aware that AA's purpose was to generally deny white applicants the opportunity while giving black applicants special privilege.

And I never said that AA was a guarantee that a black would go to college. Please stop misinterpreting me; I can't tell if you're doing it deliberately to score debate points or what.

You know I never here rich White guys whining how wrong, unfair and racially unjust Legacy Acceptance is... why do you suppose that is? You know when just because you're the White son or daughter of an alumni you get preferential standing. This is a situation where people with THE MOST OPPORTUNITY to be at the top on their own get special privilege even when they are not. And they're mostly White, correct?

You are completely correct. Legacy programs in college admissions I think are EVEN WORSE than affirmative action; at least AA had a logical, reasonable-ish, and reasonably just goal in mind. But legacy programs do nothing but reinforce the status quo for no good reason AT ALL. Legacy acceptances are complete BS. Why should the university give special treatment to you just because of something your parents did? Why can't they just judge you by your individual merits and not by what people or groups you are affiliated with?

But at one time there were great attempts TO actually help those directly effected by the Holocaust.

Affected. And yes, it was great, even though some of them could never be helped. But the difference is that that was treating an existing injustice. Universities are not racist against blacks in admissions, which is why I think AA is unnecessary there. Structural racism does exist in other areas, like school funding and tax allocations. Those are the kinds of places that need treatment, because that's where the problem and the racism is coming from; not from college admissions. The system is at fault; the base level of the system is not fair to blacks, so we should fix the base level of the system to fix the resulting unfairness elsewhere.

You must remember that Blacks were not welcome at schools of higher learning. A Black man could've been a freakin' Einstein and he'd still not get in in many circumstances. Affirmative action opened up doors and gave young Black men & women hope that if they worked hard they would get an opportunity to go to college... a very reasonable, fair and just remedy to attempt to bring up a race that was intentionally and wrongly kept down and out.

I am completely aware of that, but yet again, you are misrepresenting the issue by leaving out the very significant downside; with AA, for every less-qualified minority admitted under AA so that he would have a higher chance of succeeding in life, one white who was otherwise qualified would have to be denied.

It is a partial remedy to help the blacks, but it is an insult to the qualified whites who are denied simply because of their race. Would you not agree?

Of course some whites would call it preferential treatment, because it would be. But at least in this case (whichever one you're referring to) it would be justified, and no one would really have to suffer for the recipient to get the benefit...

Well of course they would! Little White Johnny didn't get the extra help and so he didn't get the grades & scores he needed to even get into college. Simply a White tragedy where another historically oppressed and disadvantaged White child was once again cheated. PLEEEEASE!

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or if you just don't understand the meaning of "suffer."

Tutoring is not a zero-sum game. For someone to do better via tutoring doesn't mean that someone else in the class will then do worse. If I get tutored, no one in my class "suffers" as a result. Same as, if I eat a sandwich and my friend doesn't, my friend isn't suffering. Yes, it is preferential treatment. No, it does not mean anyone else has to suffer. To "suffer" simply because you do not get the privilege someone else needs that you don't need would require deadly narcisissm and unmatched spiteful envy.

All you are really saying is do nothing and trying to make it appear a solution which it is not.

No, I most certainly am not. Special tutoring is not "nothing." Equalizing the currently racist school fund allocation system is not "nothing." Discouraging self-racial-depreciating rap is not "nothing." Funding a program for special mentors for underprivileged kids is not "nothing." On the contrary, these would BE a great part of the solution.

But what is affirmative action other than making it "appear a solution which it is not?" What is the problem? Poor educational potential among blacks. What is the solution? Encourage people to act as though they are blacks are more educated and more qualified than they are through AA? Surely not.

You seem to disagree with my assertion that AA treats the effect (fewer acceptances to jobs and such) rather than the root cause (lower educational potential at beginning of life), but you've never said why...

I say that the problem could be addressed in several ways now. But couldn't be addressed in your way back when "separate but equal" was the alloted mind set.

I'll gladly make you this deal. When every intercity school or school in a minority community gets all the exact same overall funding and quality of facilities and teachers that the most wealthy school district in the land gets K-12... that to me would help make the case that all is equal and all admissions should be strictly point by point...

Don't know how my proposed part-solutions have or had anything at all to do with "separate but equal."

Of course you say it would all be OK once everything is relatively equal anyway, but you haven't actually responded to my point that AA treats the effect rather than the cause. I guess I'll have to be more direct: Do you agree or disagree that Affirmative Action attempts to rectify imbalances (socioeconomic inequality) whose root causes are elsewhere?

 

[CNHander]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Are you by chance a Pragmatist?

Sounds pretty close, but only with a small p. I wouldn't classify my inclination towards pragmatism so much a political philosophy; more so just an understanding that in politics, only practical, real effects are what actually count. Most everything else (like the motivation behind it) can be as subjective as can be.

Government is responsible for the skyrocketing cost of healthcare.

I will agree with you partially, with a small correction:
Government is significantly responsible for the skyrocketing cost of health insurance.
Note that what I said originally was only trying to explain the rising cost of health care (not insurance), which has risen a whole lot.

Well, if you want to define the ending of slavery as non-progressive, suit yourself.... although if you do that I'm not sure how many people will take you seriously.

You seem to be under the common misconception that Progressive = Good and that's simply fallacious. Individual rights (Liberalism) prevailed with the Eman Proc and, if you would take the time to look closely, Progressivism denies individual rights and substitutes collective rights in their place: Affirmative Action is just such an example of Progressivism in practice.

I definitely don't equate progressivism with good because I don't equate any philosophy completely with good. However, I see the freeing of the slaves as a progressive reform in our society (with a little p; dictionary's definiton). But if you define Progressive to also mean collectivism and statism, then of course the freeing of the slaves wouldn't fit into that mold.

And, as I think I've said before, I am definitely against the welfare state as it is now; a man in debt up to his eyeballs shouldn't be giving thousands of dollars to homeless people.

CNHandler - Look at the words from the Supreme Court nominee and RACIST pig the Democrats and Obama are supporting as a prime example.
Here's a quote from the RACIST SotoMayer herself. etc etc

"Supreme Court nominee and RACIST pig" "the RACIST SotoMayer herself"

You aren't helping in the slightest. If you want to interject a political discussion with epithets like "RACIST PIG" you should go back to Free Republic. People like you make me ashamed to share the same viewpoint as you.

Now imagine if the KKK openly supported a white Supreme
Court nominee and joined with SkinHeads in pushing this racist white boy, who believed
blacks and latinos should strand behind white folk when it comes to opportunity.

Just reverse the skin color and that' what we have today.
Doubt me? Check this news from 7/11/2009:

On Saturday, NAACP officials meeting in New York for their centennial celebration addressed Sotomayor's link to LatinoJustice PRLDEF.

"Today, the NAACP is standing with us in our efforts to ensure that Sonia Sotomayor is confirmed," Perales told a news conference.

You think the NAACP is equivalent to the KKK.

Please. Just go away or something and stop embarrassing yourself and me. I would prefer my thread not to be junked up with blatantly, deliberately racist BS.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Absolutely there are times when the legal remedy for something is to penalize the guilty party and/or their entire organization or give advantage or compensation to the damaged .

CNHander,

Top Gun thinks you are guilty of something and therefore deserve to be discriminated against but he won't say what that something is that you have done.

Perhaps you can tell us what it is you have done to deserve to be penalized as a guilty party?

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

Note that what I said originally was only trying to explain the rising cost of health care (not insurance), which has risen a whole lot.

As I pointed out, litigation raises the cost of health care because doctors have to charge more to make up for their losses in court and cover the cost of their rising costs for medical insurance. Failure to enact tort reform is a failure of government.

Other than that, government policies, like open borders and mandates that hospitals treat anyone who shows up, are factors that make a single bandaid cost $15 on your insurance bill... someone has to pay for all the "free" healthcare that's already being provided.

 

[CNHander]

Re: The just and the unjust ways to address modern racial inequality: affirmative act

As I pointed out, litigation raises the cost of health care because doctors have to charge more to make up for their losses in court and cover the cost of their rising costs for medical insurance. Failure to enact tort reform is a failure of government.

Agreed completely. Why anyone would be against "Loser Pays" even is beyond me.