Social Security - Cost of living

[Openmind]

Yes..Openmind is right that the signers do not agree with her position...and apparently therefore they are misguided and wrong.

Catty!!!! But it's not JUST my opinion either, Rob! That is a low blow, and unworthy of you. Although, let's face it, my opinion is probably as good as many, and probably better than some, since I actually DO have an economics degree!... But, I am the first to admit that it doesn't make me a"know it all" or a visionary!

Except among the many where it is not

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That's the point: NOT that MANY!. . .and all from one ideology!

No one is saying allow companies to flood rivers with toxic waste, but we can easily create a regulatory environment that is far less burdensome and pro business..and at the same time protect rivers etc

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You mean. . .like it was under Bush? Can you give a REAL exemple of a "burdensome" regulation that is unwarranted, not just because it keeps big business to make even more money, but because it is unnecessary to keep either the environment, the country, the people, or the economy healthy?

If you have a list of those, no problem looking at them. But if you are talking about things like the new regulations on banks that issue credit cards. . .I sure am glad they're in place! In fact, I wish they would go further!

 

[BigRob]

Catty!!!!

. I am sure you have figured out by now that I get animated about political debates (curse of working in politics I suppose), but even at the end of the day we never do agree, I would still have a drink with you haha.

But it's not JUST my opinion either, Rob! That is a low blow, and unworthy of you. Although, let's face it, my opinion is probably as good as many, and probably better than some, since I actually DO have an economics degree!... But, I am the first to admit that it doesn't make me a"know it all" or a visionary!

That's the point: NOT that MANY!. . .and all from one ideology!

I just don't think so many economists can simply be discounted for no apparent reason.

You mean. . .like it was under Bush? Can you give a REAL exemple of a "burdensome" regulation that is unwarranted, not just because it keeps big business to make even more money, but because it is unnecessary to keep either the environment, the country, the people, or the economy healthy?

I did in another thread...EPA regulations required dairy farmers to basically undergo the costly burdens designed to prevent oil spills based on how "milk" was classified. Thankfully the Obama administration recently eliminated that, but the fact that it existed at all is absurd.

I saw an article estimating that it cost business 1.7 trillion a year just to do the paperwork etc to stay in line with government regulations...many of which can be eliminated.

If you have a list of those, no problem looking at them. But if you are talking about things like the new regulations on banks that issue credit cards. . .I sure am glad they're in place! In fact, I wish they would go further!

I don't mind regulations on credit cards, but the sad fact is people won't read the fine print, and will still blame someone else when get "screwed."

 

[Openmind]

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I am sure you have figured out by now that I get animated about political debates (curse of working in politics I suppose), but even at the end of the day we never do agree, I would still have a drink with you haha.

That's okay! I have broad shoulders, and a very thick skin! (for a little old woman, that is!). I would have a glass of wine with you any day. . .for some reason, even though I usually don't agree with you, I still think you're a good guy!

I just don't think so many economists can simply be discounted for no apparent reason.

But you have no problem discounting all the other economists who completely disagree with those "150!"

I did in another thread...EPA regulations required dairy farmers to basically undergo the costly burdens designed to prevent oil spills based on how "milk" was classified. Thankfully the Obama administration recently eliminated that, but the fact that it existed at all is absurd.

Well, I must admit that that sounded a little weird. Could it have been because milk is usually transported in bulk in the same type of truck as oil? But it's good of you to recognize that, when a regulation doesn't make sense, Obama doesn't try to keep it, or to enforce it, but just eliminates it.

I saw an article estimating that it cost business 1.7 trillion a year just to do the paperwork etc to stay in line with government regulations...many of which can be eliminated

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Well, I think that figure is purposely inflated. But look at the bright site: It gives work to a lot of people! That money is not flushed down the toilet, anymore (probably less) than if it was given as bonuses to the top directors and CEO's!

I don't mind regulations on credit cards, but the sad fact is people won't read the fine print, and will still blame someone else when get "screwed."

That's why many of the "small print" has been eliminated, and now shows very clearly as a first item on any credit card bill. It even describes clearly enough for ANYONE (well, almost!) to understand it that if you only pay the minimum due. . .you will end up paying this much over that many years, but if you pay twice the minimum amount, you'll pay much less and be done in 1/2 or 1/3 or the time!
Very useful! It encourages people to make a decision, and may entice them to pay more than the minimum (I sure hope so!!!).

 

[BigRob]

That's okay! I have broad shoulders, and a very thick skin! (for a little old woman, that is!). I would have a glass of wine with you any day. . .for some reason, even though I usually don't agree with you, I still think you're a good guy!

What is your wine of choice? I had a Mettler Cab the other day that was actually (I thought) quite a good wine.

But you have no problem discounting all the other economists who completely disagree with those "150!"

I didn't discount them...I simply said I came down on the other side of the debate.

Well, I must admit that that sounded a little weird. Could it have been because milk is usually transported in bulk in the same type of truck as oil? But it's good of you to recognize that, when a regulation doesn't make sense, Obama doesn't try to keep it, or to enforce it, but just eliminates it.

I don't know the reasoning behind it to be honest.

Well, I think that figure is purposely inflated. But look at the bright site: It gives work to a lot of people! That money is not flushed down the toilet, anymore (probably less) than if it was given as bonuses to the top directors and CEO's!

How many jobs could be created if that 1.7 trillion could be used to grow the company though?

That's why many of the "small print" has been eliminated, and now shows very clearly as a first item on any credit card bill. It even describes clearly enough for ANYONE (well, almost!) to understand it that if you only pay the minimum due. . .you will end up paying this much over that many years, but if you pay twice the minimum amount, you'll pay much less and be done in 1/2 or 1/3 or the time!
Very useful! It encourages people to make a decision, and may entice them to pay more than the minimum (I sure hope so!!!).

It is hard to fathom that someone didn't know that beforehand.

 

[Openmind]

What is your wine of choice? I had a Mettler Cab the other day that was actually (I thought) quite a good wine

.

I've rarely met a wine that I didn't like. . .but my current favorite is "La Creme," especially their Chardonnay. I like Cabernet best, in many vintages, but especially "Sterling" and "Silver Oak."

I didn't discount them...I simply said I came down on the other side of the debate.

And that's exactly what I did!. . .but I came down on the opposite side!

How many jobs could be created if that 1.7 trillion could be used to grow the company though?

Hard to tell. . .could it be more than the number of jobs necessary to keep the regulation going? I'm not so sure! As I stated before, big corporations are SITTING on billions of dollars right now. . .doing nothing with it. . .certainly not growing their companies or hiring. . . and you know why I think they do that: It's not how much money they have in their coffer. . its how much demand there is for their product that will determine when they begin hiring again (if ever!).

It is hard to fathom that someone didn't know that beforehand

.[/QUOTE]

Rob, probably 1/3 of the people who get in the most trouble with credit card can hardly read at a 6th grade level. . .much less read the "fine print" on credit card, insurances, or mortgage contracts! And there are plenty of "educated people" who are more than happy to NOT help them!

 

[BigRob]

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I've rarely met a wine that I didn't like. . .but my current favorite is "La Creme," especially their Chardonnay. I like Cabernet best, in many vintages, but especially "Sterling" and "Silver Oak."

Haha, I like the Sterling at times as well...my wife is not as big a fan of it though.

She signed us up for the WSJ wine club, which has turned out to be fairly decent I think. Good selection in the cases you get etc...

And that's exactly what I did!. . .but I came down on the opposite side!

But clearly my side is right.

Hard to tell. . .could it be more than the number of jobs necessary to keep the regulation going? I'm not so sure! As I stated before, big corporations are SITTING on billions of dollars right now. . .doing nothing with it. . .certainly not growing their companies or hiring. . . and you know why I think they do that: It's not how much money they have in their coffer. . its how much demand there is for their product that will determine when they begin hiring again (if ever!).

I heard that some of these companies (the big ones) are starting to hire overseas at a fairly decent pace right now..I'll have to look into if that is accurate.

Rob, probably 1/3 of the people who get in the most trouble with credit card can hardly read at a 6th grade level. . .much less read the "fine print" on credit card, insurances, or mortgage contracts! And there are plenty of "educated people" who are more than happy to NOT help them!

Not just the uneducated...my wife has a friend from law school who amassed a ton of debt (plus student loans), and made only minimum payments (if she made any) for years. Of course in the interim she was taking out loans to eat out at fancy restaurants, buy champagne by the case etc etc...

After all of that she had the audacity to ask me for a loan...which I of course refused (and apparently am a horrible person because of it)

I am fine with helping people, if they are at least trying to help themselves.

 

[Lagboltz]

No one is saying allow companies to flood rivers with toxic waste, but we can easily create a regulatory environment that is far less burdensome and pro business..and at the same time protect rivers etc.

Companies are doing exactly that -- the technology of fracking is putting harsh chemicals such as barium, strontium, high concentrations of salt, benzene, ethylbenzene, toluene, xylene, and napththalene, 2-butoxyethanol, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, methanol, formaldehyde, ethylene, glycol, glycol ethers, hydrocholoric acid, and sodium hydroxide into the ground waters and rivers. This is happening in Pennsylvania and Colorado.

Water treatment plants are overpowered and cannot clear it out. Homes that depend on well water actually pump up water that is so contaminated with methane that it burns.

Yes, doing fracking with good waste control cuts into their profits and companies in my area are trying to get away with it.

 

[BigRob]

Companies are doing exactly that -- the technology of fracking is putting harsh chemicals such as barium, strontium, high concentrations of salt, benzene, ethylbenzene, toluene, xylene, and napththalene, 2-butoxyethanol, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, methanol, formaldehyde, ethylene, glycol, glycol ethers, hydrocholoric acid, and sodium hydroxide into the ground waters and rivers. This is happening in Pennsylvania and Colorado.

Water treatment plants are overpowered and cannot clear it out. Homes that depend on well water actually pump up water that is so contaminated with methane that it burns.

Yes, doing fracking with good waste control cuts into their profits and companies in my area are trying to get away with it.

That is really not even true....

U.S. government studies have found no evidence of drinking water contamination from hydraulic fracturing. In 2004, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) conducted a study to assess the contamination potential of underground drinking water sources (UDWS) from the injection of hydraulic fracturing fluid into coalbed methane (CBM) wells. EPA found "the injection of hydraulic fracturing fluids into CBM wells poses little or no threat to USDWs and does not justify additional study at this time." EPA also reviewed incidents of drinking water well contamination believed to be associated with hydraulic fracturing operations. It found "no confirmed cases linked to fracturing fluid injection of CBM wells or subsequent underground movement of fracturing fluid."

In 1998, the Ground Water Protection Council (GWPC) and a team of state agency representatives conducted a survey of state oil and natural gas agencies to establish an accurate assessment of the number of active CBM wells associated with hydraulic fracturing. Based on the survey of 25 oil and natural gas producing states, the GWPC concluded, "there was no evidence to support claims that public health is at risk as a result of the hydraulic fracturing of coalbeds used for the production of methane gas."

EPA is developing a study plan now for a congressionally-mandated review of the relationship between hydraulic fracturing and drinking water. The study is expected to be finished in 2012.

A recent documentary about hydraulic fracturing implies that fracturing has contaminated water wells in Pennsylvania. However, John Hanger, secretary of the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) recently told Reuters, "It's our experience in Pennsylvania that we have not had one case in which the fluids used to break off the gas from 5,000 to 8,000 feet underground have returned to contaminate ground water." Hanger's comment appears in this Reuters article.

I saw in some studies as well, the water prior to any drilling already had methane in it, and could be burned as well.

Also, the fracturing occurs well below the aquifer and is separated from groundwater and drinking water supplies by hundreds or thousands of feet of solid rock.

Finally, as someone who has land that is currently being drilled on, with this system, we did a ton of research into the process, and a lot of the things politicians say about it comes from a lack of understanding of the process, rather than any actual problem.

 

[Lagboltz]

That is really not even true....

I saw in some studies as well, the water prior to any drilling already had methane in it, and could be burned as well.

There are areas where well water flammability is correlated with fracking.

Also, the fracturing occurs well below the aquifer and is separated from groundwater and drinking water supplies by hundreds or thousands of feet of solid rock.

Right, but millions of gallons of water are used and that water does not stay underground and must be disposed above ground.

Finally, as someone who has land that is currently being drilled on, with this system, we did a ton of research into the process, and a lot of the things politicians say about it comes from a lack of understanding of the process, rather than any actual problem.

Maybe they are doing it right in your area, but municipal water treatment plants in other areas are being overwhelmed.

My point is that this is an example of regulation that puts a monetary burden on industry, and the industry in some areas are trying to subvert it.

 

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by BigRob

Additionally, from my perspective, (someone in their 20s),

That explains a lot. I have underwear older than that. I have see it. I have lived it. He has read about it. I have been wasting my time. Old people will understand what I am saying. I am out of here.

 

[Gipper]

Companies are doing exactly that -- the technology of fracking is putting harsh chemicals such as barium, strontium, high concentrations of salt, benzene, ethylbenzene, toluene, xylene, and napththalene, 2-butoxyethanol, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, methanol, formaldehyde, ethylene, glycol, glycol ethers, hydrocholoric acid, and sodium hydroxide into the ground waters and rivers. This is happening in Pennsylvania and Colorado.

Water treatment plants are overpowered and cannot clear it out. Homes that depend on well water actually pump up water that is so contaminated with methane that it burns.

Yes, doing fracking with good waste control cuts into their profits and companies in my area are trying to get away with it.

You really need to educate yourself on everything. No such thing is occurring. You have once again accepted a lie by the radical left.

Any company that illegally pollutes the environment in this country faces huge fines, imprisonment of it's executives, and can be forced to close. To not know this, proves you have been fooled again.

By your "thinking," American industry is polluting the land on par with what occurred decades ago before Nixon enacted pollution laws and the EPA. You are stuck in 1970 when your left wing ancestors claimed Lake Erie was dead for a 1,000 years due to pollution...yet the Lake is alive and well...and has been for some time now.

 

[Gipper]

That explains a lot. I have underwear older than that. I have see it. I have lived it. He has read about it. I have been wasting my time. Old people will understand what I am saying. I am out of here.

Does this mean you are emigrating to Cuba?

I think you can still get your SS check there. I hear the American dollar still goes a long way there. You will need to spruce up on your Spanish.

I know of a Florida entrepreneur who owns a rickety boat. He will gladly transport you across the Florida Straits to the utopia that is Cuba...for a price. If you need money for the crossing, I will happily contribute.

 

[Lagboltz]

You really need to educate yourself on everything. No such thing is occurring. You have once again accepted a lie by the radical left.

Any company that illegally pollutes the environment in this country faces huge fines, imprisonment of it's executives, and can be forced to close. To not know this, proves you have been fooled again.

By your "thinking," American industry is polluting the land on par with what occurred decades ago before Nixon enacted pollution laws and the EPA. You are stuck in 1970 when your left wing ancestors claimed Lake Erie was dead for a 1,000 years due to pollution...yet the Lake is alive and well...and has been for some time now.

YOU have to educate yourself. There was a radio program dedicated to the problems in Pennsylvania and they said exactly what I said. It did not come from the radical left for god's sake. Get rid of your paranoia about the left.
YOU are not reading or listening to the right news sources. Of course the problems are not on par with what was happening decades ago.

 

[Gipper]

YOU have to educate yourself. There was a radio program dedicated to the problems in Pennsylvania and they said exactly what I said. It did not come from the radical left for god's sake. Get rid of your paranoia about the left.
YOU are not reading or listening to the right news sources. Of course the problems are not on par with what was happening decades ago.

So we are to believe that the HUGE OMNIPRESENT Federal government with it's numerous agencies and unlimited power is looking the other way while Pennsylvania is overwhelmed with pollution. That the EPA (now an enormous agency with dictatorial powers) under a socialist president is not doing it's job. That the numerous greenie groups with considerable financial backing are not lobbying the government to stop this horrendous polluting of the land.

Oh....the sky is failing....Oh NOOOOOOOO!!!!

This is your argument.

If all this terrible pollution is true, why are you not upset with the most expensive and expansive government in the WORLD for failing to do it's job?

 

[Lagboltz]

So we are to believe that the HUGE OMNIPRESENT Federal government with it's numerous agencies and unlimited power is looking the other way while Pennsylvania is overwhelmed with pollution. That the EPA (now an enormous agency with dictatorial powers) under a socialist president is not doing it's job. That the numerous greenie groups with considerable financial backing are not lobbying the government to do this horrendous polluting of the land.

Oh....the sky is failing....Oh NOOOOOOOO!!!!

This is your argument.

Why are you not upset with the most expensive and expansive government in the WORLD for failing to do it's job?

I really don't care whether you believe it or not. Get a hold of yourself. You don't have to be a drama queen about it.