Prove that God doesn't exist.

[numinus]

It's YOUR holy book, Nummies, you are the one pushing the Catholic agenda. If you don't know where those things are in the Bible let me know and I'll send you some scripture notes and you can do Bible study in the evenings.

You know, if you would stick to cosmology and forego the anthropomorphic, vaporous hominid-in-the-sky routine we'd probably come closer to seeing eye to eye--not to suggest that you want to, I was just observing.

How many times do I need to say it? Its called ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT because it doesn't make use of scripture.

How can something ontological have a 'catholic agenda', eh?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It does make sense that there would not be proof that God demands the death of gay or transgender people since He does not demand that.

What planet do you live on? Does Leviticus 20:13 exist on your planet? How about Leviticus 18:22? On our planet Christians have used these and other scriptures to condemn gay people for centuries.

Yes you do have religious beliefs. But it is obvious that you propose your version of things with far more hostility than the Christians on this board. So should I begin to lump all TG's together and ascribe to all of them what I see in you? Certainly not.

I'm hostile? Christians have been killing us, persecuting us, denying us legal equality, and generally beating the crap out of us for centuries, and I'm being hostile? People claimed the same thing when blacks finally decided not to keep sitting on the back of the bus. People were horrified that blacks would be so hostile, so angry, and they said, "We haven't done anything to make you so hostile!"

Why wouldn't we be hostile? How many of us have been beaten, raped, killed, tortured, pistol-whipped, or beaten to death with a shovel? And every single Sunday you can find preachers in pulpits preaching hate and fear towards us. The terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers killed about 5000 Americans and we went to war over it. We've killed a couple of million people and laid waste to two countries. Christians have killed a thousand times that many gay and transpeople with no repercussions whatsoever. I'm hostile, you bet your ass I'm hostile. I tired of the same stupid bigots and the same simple-minded apologists alternately bashing us and obsequiously excusing themselves for it. And 23 States voted in anti-/gay amendments to their Constitutions while all the good Christians were in church praying? Uh huh. I don't use violence against my persecutors, I have never raised a hand to any one of them, even when my life was threatened I did not contemplate violence, but that's not enough, now you and your ilk wish I would be silent as well. I will speak truth to power as best I can, I will not strike you but I will speak to you about how your actions hurt us. No one is required to read what I write, you have an "ignore" button the same as I do.

Maybe most of the Christians are the good people you seem to think, but if they will stand on the sidelines silently while their religion is raped in the name of hatred, then maybe they are not as "good" as you think.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You call what you're doing verbal sparring?

Should I break sweat anytime soon?

Of course it's verbal sparring, what else would it be? It can't be education--you haven't learned anything. You can sweat if you want, personally I don't sweat the small stuff like this. You're more fun to spar with than most because you're smarter and better educated.

If someone persecutes your transexual a$$, then I'd be the first to defend you.

Okay... don't they have transsexuals in Lithuania where you live?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

What fundamental right has been taken from you, eh?

You added the word "fundamental" so you could argue the point, I was talking about legal rights--do they have those in Lithuania? In our country the US Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law, which means that all consenting adults are equal in the eyes of the law and all laws are to be applied equally. Marriage is denied legally to a few percent of the tax-paying, consenting adult population based on religious dogma.

That is clearly a travesty, since fundamental rights are independent of positive law. They may NOT be conveyed NOR taken away.

I gotta tell ya', Nums, if someone shoots you in the back of the head your fundamental rights get splattered all over the place.

What teaching might that be?

Check with the Pope, he'll give you the whole skinny. You might also do Bible study in the evening, they have classes.

What behavior might that be?

Hijacking of their religion by the haters and hurters of the world.

Hardly! I don't consider myself competent enough for that role. You need a phd in philosophy for that, I think.

Your actions speak louder than your words.

Sorry. Don't know them.

And therein Fate has blessed you, they are just very public hypocrites and hate-mongers.

 

[numinus]

Of course it's verbal sparring, what else would it be? It can't be education--you haven't learned anything. You can sweat if you want, personally I don't sweat the small stuff like this. You're more fun to spar with than most because you're smarter and better educated.

I'd imagine its a no contest.

Okay... don't they have transsexuals in Lithuania where you live?

There are some transexuals here. I don't know if there is anyone practicing the procedure here but more often than not, they had the operation abroad.

If someone can afford it, then I think they are well-off enough to require my help.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

How many times do I need to say it? Its called ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT because it doesn't make use of scripture.

How can something ontological have a 'catholic agenda', eh?

Ah yes, but can Catholics have an ontological agenda? What if the Pope has a degree in social engineering?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I'd imagine its a no contest.

The functional word in the sentence being "imagine", as in being a legend in one's own mind.

There are some transexuals here. I don't know if there is anyone practicing the procedure here but more often than not, they had the operation abroad.

If someone can afford it, then I think they are well-off enough to require my help.

That's obscure to the point of being opaque. You only help those who are well-off? Engineers are expensive, we hire them for our construction work sometimes.

 

[numinus]

You added the word "fundamental" so you could argue the point, I was talking about legal rights--do they have those in Lithuania? In our country the US Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law, which means that all consenting adults are equal in the eyes of the law and all laws are to be applied equally. Marriage is denied legally to a few percent of the tax-paying, consenting adult population based on religious dogma.

Its the same thing. A statute would be deemed unconstitutional if it renders a fundamental right defective, no? Otherwise, its just a numbers game.

I gotta tell ya', Nums, if someone shoots you in the back of the head your fundamental rights get splattered all over the place.

Of course. That would be murder. And one cannot murder without legal consequences.

Was a gay murdered and his murderer acquitted simply because the victim was gay?

Check with the Pope, he'll give you the whole skinny. You might also do Bible study in the evening, they have classes.

I have. Humanae vitae. Have you?

Hijacking of their religion by the haters and hurters of the world.

How does one hijack another's religion -- a fundamental RIGHT TO THOUGHT, hmmm?

Please. I'm curious.

Your actions speak louder than your words.

And you're clinically deaf.

And therein Fate has blessed you, they are just very public hypocrites and hate-mongers.

We have that sort to, here. I have reserved my most eloquent insults for them, fyi.

 

[numinus]

Ah yes, but can Catholics have an ontological agenda? What if the Pope has a degree in social engineering?

Eh?

If you must know, jp2 had very serious objections to ontology -- or what he refered to as the 'god of the philosophers'. According to him, it ignores the 'dimension of love' inherent in god's self-revelation.

So much for the catholic agenda, wouldn't you say?

 

[numinus]

The functional word in the sentence being "imagine", as in being a legend in one's own mind.

Have you said anything that you feel I have not roundly refuted? You really over-estimate your chances here.

That's obscure to the point of being opaque. You only help those who are well-off? Engineers are expensive, we hire them for our construction work sometimes.

Eh? The fact that they are well-off means they have a better access to the legal system, hence do not require the help of a lowly engineer.

If I see one getting beaten up on the street (although how I would know if he was a transexual is beyond me), I'd relish the opportunity to demonstrate my mma skills.

Clear?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Its the same thing. A statute would be deemed unconstitutional if it renders a fundamental right defective, no? Otherwise, its just a numbers game.

No, the lottery is a numbers game. The right is not defective, the statues are.

Of course. That would be murder. And one cannot murder without legal consequences.

Was a gay murdered and his murderer acquitted simply because the victim was gay?

Yes, many times, the defense is "reasonable provocation". The Catholic Church got by with it when they burned Joan of Arc at the stake. The people who killed Tyra Hunter in Washington DC were not prosecuted despite 100 witnesses and the her family winning a wrongful death suit for 3.5 million.

I have. Humanae vitae. Have you?

What has that got to do with ontological argument? You got to make up your mind, are you ontologically or human vitae operative?

How does one hijack another's religion -- a fundamental RIGHT TO THOUGHT, hmmm?

A religion is more or less a monolithic body of dogma which can be manipulated, changed, twisted, destroyed, or reshaped into something new. Individual religious beliefs are equally malleable in most sheeple. When you allow others to direct your thoughts you have only a latent "right to thought".

And you're clinically deaf.

Perhaps, but I'm not blind.

We have that sort to, here. I have reserved my most eloquent insults for them, fyi.

Good for you.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Eh?

If you must know, jp2 had very serious objections to ontology -- or what he refered to as the 'god of the philosophers'. According to him, it ignores the 'dimension of love' inherent in god's self-revelation.

So much for the catholic agenda, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't, he still preaches hate for gay and transpeople.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Have you said anything that you feel I have not roundly refuted? You really over-estimate your chances here.

Practically everything I have posted, that's all. "Over-estimated"? Hmmm, not based on your performance so far.

Eh? The fact that they are well-off means they have a better access to the legal system, hence do not require the help of a lowly engineer.

If I see one getting beaten up on the street (although how I would know if he was a transexual is beyond me), I'd relish the opportunity to demonstrate my mma skills. Clear?

"MMA" skills? Manly Murder, Maundering Misanthrope, Miserable Masticator, Moribund Meglomanic, Magical Motivator?

Why trannies but not gays?

 

[numinus]

No, the lottery is a numbers game. The right is not defective, the statues are.

Statues?

Marital laws are STATUTES. If you want to change it, you either demonstrate that it is unconstitutional -- that is, it renders a fundamental right defective, or you can have it ammended by a plebiscite.

Since you can't win in a plebiscite, you need to demonstrate that it is unconsititutional. Aren't you getting dizzy spinning around like that?

Yes, many times, the defense is "reasonable provocation". The Catholic Church got by with it when they burned Joan of Arc at the stake. The people who killed Tyra Hunter in Washington DC were not prosecuted despite 100 witnesses and the her family winning a wrongful death suit for 3.5 million.

Now that's a travesty of justice.

What has this got to do with gay marriages, anyway. Will an ammendment to a statute prevent murder?

What has that got to do with ontological argument? You got to make up your mind, are you ontologically or human vitae operative?

What?

I am arguing the existence of god using ontology.

Humanae vitae, like any church teaching, is not entirely dependent on ontolgy.

A religion is more or less a monolithic body of dogma which can be manipulated, changed, twisted, destroyed, or reshaped into something new. Individual religious beliefs are equally malleable in most sheeple. When you allow others to direct your thoughts you have only a latent "right to thought".

Sigh.

No. You got the definition of church wrong. It is no wonder you get the definition of religion wrong as well.

Perhaps, but I'm not blind.

Which is perhaps the reason why you cannot understand something that is loudly said.

Good for you.

Indeed.

 

[numinus]

No, I wouldn't, he still preaches hate for gay and transpeople.

How could he? He's dead.

Is it entirely possible that the sermon you heard jp2 give is a delusion?