Progressives war on religion

[Dr.Who]

Supporting fact/details?!?!?


What secular standards? Like you cant be a convicted pedophile to be ordained as a minister? Those sort of secular rules?



You are being vague again. What positions What principles?

All addressed in the OP.

 

[Dr.Who]

You do realize that elected officials are almost entirely theists... In fact the sure fire way to throw an election is to publicly claim you lack the belief in deities.

The reference to the present administration is not a reference to all elected officials in the country but to those that are a part of the administration presently in power in the WH.

And yes the number of appointees in the WH who are antitheists is the largest in history.

I could start pointing the the various communists, atheists, a anti-theist bigots that he has appointed but that would take quite a long time. I could point to the various ant-theist policies that come from various portions of his administration but that too could take a long time. How about I just leave it by saying that after looking at the situation I have arrived at that conclusion for good reason and if you want to counter you can point to the small number of people of some sort of faith that are a part of his admin.

 

[Dr.Who]

The courts could decide if the Catholic church was in error for not hiring the Jehova's Witness as a priest.

Care to support that assertion? I can make baseless assertions all day long but that doesnt prove a bloody thing.

The OP covers it.

 

[Dr.Who]

The courts could decide if the curriculum of a religious school required a teacher who understood that religion or not - and they would make that decision despite the likelihood of having no understanding itself.

Speak the Queen's English please, this is incoherent rambling.

Next time read the OP. This was the exact example that was listed in the OP.

 

[Dr.Who]

I hate to say it but... You're wrong. Progressivism is a cancer thats infected every aspect of life. Most easily infected are those people and institutions that have an Altruistic foundation on the principle of self sacrifice for the greater good. Progressives are actively embracing Christianity, and all religion, in order to indoctrinate theists in the Progressive ideology.y.

I began by stating that progressives have largely become anti-theists. I am pretty sure that an analysis of the demographics of the progressive movement would bear this out.

It is not dramatic nor unrealistic to think that we can make certain statements about progressives. For example I could say "most progressives believe that gov should do a whole lot more to give free health care and day care to all." I could say "94% of progressives think that environmental issues are as important as economic issues" I could go on.

So it is not unrealistic to say that progressives are largely anti-theist.

From a preliminary Zogby poll we learn that fully 28% of progressives claim no religious affiliation. Among the remaining 72% who do claim a religious affiliation (like the 16% who claim "other") how many actively work against theistic thinking? i would be willing to bet that 99% of the progressives here oppose theistic thinking on at least one issue. I bet the number never falls below 50% too.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Political/NotesProgresAgenda.html


Compared to the general population in which only about 12% would claim to be atheists that is significant if not hard to decipher.

I do have to admit however that I would have expected a smaller number of progressives to be protestants, catholics, and born again christians than are.

I still have to defend the statement that they largely (I would now have to say relatively) are anti-theist but if I could do it over again I would instead say that a much higher percent of progressives are ant-theists than in the regular population, so much more that if we made a list of characteristics that more or less defined progressives we would have to include it among other words like:

environmentalist, statist, social justice proponents, multi-culturalists...

That would be the strong list.

A weaker list would include words like: anti-corporatists, pro-choice, and anti-theists.

 

[Dr.Who]

Sorry, I think it is laughable to think that some people on the right believe that progressive are "destroying" religion!!!!

It is a relatively large part of who progressives are. Whether they are atheists or in some way affiliated with some religion some core values of progressivism are antithetical to some core values of theism as is widely practices among the major religions of the US.

Sometimes there is a direct conflict like among those progressives who are actually atheists and some times it is less direct like among those who are communists or merely statists.

 

[Gipper]

It is a relatively large part of who progressives are. Whether they are atheists or in some way affiliated with some religion some core values of progressivism are antithetical to some core values of theism as is widely practices among the major religions of the US.

Sometimes there is a direct conflict like among those progressives who are actually atheists and some times it is less direct like among those who are communists or merely statists.

Agreed.

This is such old news, but not surprising that many rank and file libs do not know it. Just proof again that they are purposely not informed by their media.

But, it is even worse. Progressives along with their follow travelers the Marxists, Commies, socialists, etc....are generally not only atheists, but anti-Christian and anti-Jew. Wherever these 'isms' come to power throughout history, they immediately persecute people of faith. They know the power of faith will always defeat them. So, they unusually resort to their leftist instincts, which of course is murder.

Progressives are working hard to co-opt many Christian faiths with their idiotic commie social justice initiatives. How any Christian denomination could fall for their BS is beyond me.

 

[GenSeneca]

It is a relatively large part of who progressives are. Whether they are atheists or in some way affiliated with some religion some core values of progressivism are antithetical to some core values of theism as is widely practices among the major religions of the US.

Sometimes there is a direct conflict like among those progressives who are actually atheists and some times it is less direct like among those who are communists or merely statists.

Did you mean to say "atheist"? I'm an Atheist, I do not oppose Theism. Anti-Theists oppose all Theism. In the case of Progressive Anti-Theists, they oppose all theism except for Progressive Theism, which they have no reason to oppose, since it's the same ideology only packaged in a religious, rather than social, context.

 

[Dr.Who]

Did you mean to say "atheist"? I'm an Atheist, I do not oppose Theism. Anti-Theists oppose all Theism. In the case of Progressive Anti-Theists, they oppose all theism except for Progressive Theism, which they have no reason to oppose, since it's the same ideology only packaged in a religious, rather than social, context.

I do not assume that all atheist are anti-theist. What I am saying, and doing a poor job of it, is that progressives are very often anti-theists, sometimes it arises in large part from their atheism, but at other times from other aspects of progressivism.

I would disagree that an anti-theist must oppose every theistic idea - the world is just not that neat. They may at times oppose only some theisms. In fact I think it is most common that a progressive would oppose Christianity, secondly the Abraham religions, but often and at the same time they might embrace new age spiritual concepts of a deity while not subscribing to it themselves. Even that gets messy, since I wonder if they might not oppose Islam more than Christianity but don't say much about it thus giving the impression that they oppose Islam less.

Yes a progressive often takes their philosophy and raises it to heights on a par with religion. I would not claim that that makes them non anti-theist.

And yes sometimes progressives and sometimes atheist and sometimes a person who is both is not an anti-theist.

Likewise sometimes a progressive is not a socialist either but when push comes to shove if you scratch the surface you will find socialistic ideas. It has been my experience that the majority of progressives I have encountered have within themselves anti-theism whether you see it everyday or not - just scratch the surface, i.e. wait long enough on a forum like this and it will usually show itself.

lets go to some of the threads in which anti-theism is apparent and see just how many progressives are defending which side. I would be shocked to find that many take the side of tolerance, I would find it to be par for the course to find that either they are at best silent and often attempting to validate the anti-theism in one way or another. Consider this a challenge for anyone here who does not think that in general progressives are anti-theist. Show me and I will admit if I am wrong. I do that all the time and have already had to admit on this thread that the anti-theist elements in progressivism are not as strong as I thought.

 

[Imperium]

Not to be "that guy" but I have to ask why should the West care for Christianity when it doesn't care for the West? http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4693

Also just an observation here but it seems to me that the only people who scream religious persecution in America are ever Christians or Muslims. You never hear a Hindu for example saying that the nation is persecuting his religious system. No you just hear Abrahmic religions talking about how they are persecuted in a nation dominated by other members of Abrahamic faiths. Or in other words, methinks they doth protest too much.

 

[Openmind]

Not to be "that guy" but I have to ask why should the West care for Christianity when it doesn't care for the West? http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4693

Also just an observation here but it seems to me that the only people who scream religious persecution in America are ever Christians or Muslims. You never hear a Hindu for example saying that the nation is persecuting his religious system. No you just hear Abrahmic religions talking about how they are persecuted in a nation dominated by other members of Abrahamic faiths. Or in other words, methinks they doth protest too much.

Interesting link you provided.
And interesting comments on the self-identified persecution of religions in the US. I tend to agree with you on this issue.

 

[Dr.Who]

Not to be "that guy" but I have to ask why should the West care for Christianity when it doesn't care for the West? http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4693

Also just an observation here but it seems to me that the only people who scream religious persecution in America are ever Christians or Muslims. You never hear a Hindu for example saying that the nation is persecuting his religious system. No you just hear Abrahmic religions talking about how they are persecuted in a nation dominated by other members of Abrahamic faiths. Or in other words, methinks they doth protest too much.

Welcome to the board.

Ever heard of a dotbuster? The dot of course refers to the bindi (dot) on the forehead of many hindu people. Perhaps you have never heard of it because hindus only represent .5% of the population.

Christians represent a majority (sort of) in the states so we would hear more about their persecution because of that (but also less because many Christians have an aversion to complaining about their own persecution). In short, it is not useful to try to count howmuch persecution exist against whom but to try to establish principles that we can use in discussing all persecution.

 

[dogtowner]

Welcome to the board.

Ever heard of a dotbuster? The dot of course refers to the bindi (dot) on the forehead of many hindu people. Perhaps you have never heard of it because hindus only represent .5% of the population.

Christians represent a majority (sort of) in the states so we would hear more about their persecution because of that (but also less because many Christians have an aversion to complaining about their own persecution). In short, it is not useful to try to count howmuch persecution exist against whom but to try to establish principles that we can use in discussing all persecution.

Bindi AKA pottu as it was taught to me. Hindus keep a low profile seeking instead to join the melting pot that is America and avoid conflict as their religion (of peace) calls for.

Synonyms

• kumkum
• pottu
• sindoor
• tika
• tilak
• tilakam

 

[A0220R]

Fascinating as this discussion is, it is all conjecture. I'd be interested to see statistics concerning how many people in the United States self-identify as progressives and how many consider themselves religious.
I think you'll find 'progressives' make up a substantial portion of the population; atheists do not. But again, both my position and yours are meaningless without figures.

But this can be said: Progressivism isn't an ideology guys, so it can't be inherently for or against anything except for that which it must be by definition: i.e. for progress and against regress. We typically use it to mean, someone who favors reform and change, generally using the government as an instrument to that end.

But we also call environmentalists, feminists, civil rights activists, and the like progressives. Sometimes they prefer to inspire change through outreach programs sponsored or run by non-profits or other sorts of NGOs.

But again, progressivism isn't an ideology. Unlike Marxism or Libertarianism you don't need to believe in any particular normative and empirical worldview. If you have a problem with atheists, and the fact that many atheists believe in Reform Liberalism, Democratic Socialism, one of the variety of schools of straight Socialism, Marxism, or political Feminism (which is a coherent ideology, although it has come to be used really broadly as well), then you need to specify. Especially because each of these groups views religion differently.

Take Marxism, for example. Marxists have no qualm with religion. They simply believe that once they have created the Communist utopia, government and religion both will no longer be necessary. Marx thought that people needed religion to help cope with the harshness of life, so naturally, once life was no longer harsh and unfulfilling, people would give up religion.

Socialists, on the other hand, seem to have historically taken a very strong anti-religious stance. Though there has been some variation.

The point is, progressives can't be anti-religious because they have no coherent normative/empirical shared beliefs. It's just another political buzzword people use.
It's used the same way people use 'conservative'.
Libertarians, Fascists, Traditional Conservatives, and Christian Dominionists in this country all fall on the conservative end of the spectrum and call themselves conservative. But they all share radically different beliefs and would be at each others throats if all of the left-of-center ideologies disappeared.
Likewise, 'progressive' is an umbrella term - Environmentalists, Feminists, Modern Reform Liberals, Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Marxists, etc etc. And these groups are only superficially similar. If the right-of-center parties all disappeared these guys would ripping each other to shreds.

So if you want to end this 'war on religion' you're going to have to find out who it is you're actually fighting against. Find out what the anti-religion 'progressives' have in common. Otherwise you just end up making pretty wild accusations against a huge variety of people. It's like when conservatives are called racists. There are racists in the conservative party, but it's not because they're conservative. It's because they're racist.

 

[Openmind]

Someone wanted an example, here is a recent one.



Sure seems to violate that "free exercise" thing.

How about this "violation:"

The military tries to force a young atheist graduate to bow his head and clasp his hands during the benediction by the chaplain. . .and when he refuses, they threaten to exclude him from the graduation ceremony!

October 19th, 2011
07:16 PM ET

By Jennifer Rizzo, CNN

Washington (CNN) - After almost being pulled from a graduation ceremony for refusal to lower the head during a benediction, a soldier is now allowed to attend but must instead stand at attention.

The 20-year-old private first class, a proclaimed atheist, is graduating from Advanced Individual Training at Fort Jackson in South Carolina on Thursday.

The soldier, who requested that CNN not give a name and gender for fear of repercussions, called the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on Wednesday after taking part in a rehearsal for the graduation.

The soldier told the watchdog group that during the rehearsal, officials ordered the soldiers to bow their heads and clasp their hands during the chaplain's benediction. As an atheist, the soldier refused to do so.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/19/military-backs...