Palestine

[Coyote]

Accoutable for what? Capturing a piece of land from which the SYRIANS fired artillery and set up snipers that shot at children? Furthermore, Israel appealed to the international community for 19 years to put an end to the shelling and sniper fire before they finally took matters into their own hands and captured the area.

Israel has likewise killed many innocent children (or do those children even matter since they are all "terrorists" after all??? Are they subhuman???). Israel has also provoked many situations. Israel has ignored over a hundred UN resolutions. I'm certainly not saying - and never have said - it's all or mostly Israel's fault but it's time that the world, and the US in particular, recognizes that Israel has some cuplability for the current situation.

In 1974, syria attempted to recapture the land and failed. Afterwards, syria signed a disengagement agreement that left the Golan in Israel's hands. [See map]

Golan heights are not the only occupied territories - most of the dispute is with the West Bank and Gaza and Jeruselum.

The "palestinians" have, and never by any stretch of the imagination held any claim to the occupied territories as that land belonged to syria who signed an agreement leaving it in Israel's hands. We have heard nothing from syria since suggesting that they want it back. Decades of anti semetic misinformation, however, have left folks like you believeing that the occupied territories somehow were taken from the "palestinians" when that simply is not and never was the case.

The Golan heights are not the only territories in issue here and are not what are primarily of concern to the Palestinians.

It did establish a state and further, the documents established that only the league of nations had the authority to change those boundries. The un resolution was meaningless as it was an illegal attempt to change the boundries of a sovriegn state.

Look at the date declaring the founding of Israel as a sovereign state, and the maps officially defining Israel's boundaries. Honestly Pale - I've never known you to so ignore facts

I haven't ignored your figures. I have disregarded them because they are faulty. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps. The population you keep mentioning was in what is now jordan. And do just a bit of math. You claim 700,000 refugees. Today, 60 years later, almost 7 million are claiming to be refugees and have a right of return. Do the math. You have been scamed. Only vermin reproduce at such a rate. The fact is that there are harly any who can legitimately claim to be refugees today as most would have died off years ago.

I also showed historical demographics and figures showing populations in the area during the mandate area as have other posters. Whatever the 7 million comes from - I don't know or care. I'm talking about 700,000 which is historically documented. The demographic reality of the situation - which I have already acknowledged is there can be no right of return - that is something that the Palestinians will have to give up in order to achieve peace. That is also why a two-state solution is the only viable solution. You can't uproot all these people and send them to a foreign country any more then you can send all blacks to Liberia. Just because Jordan is "Palestinian" doesn't make them the same as the the "palestinians" in Gaza. This kind of reasoning is what the British used when they partitioned India and divided Bengal into the Hindu portion which went with India and the muslim portion which went to Pakistan. Yet culturally, ethnically, educationally - the muslim Bengali's had much more in common with their Hindu brethren then they did with the majority of Pakistan. That partition was a tragic disaster.

 

[Coyote]

Words cannot express just how horrified I am at the thought that there are people in the world who think like you do.

Yes...

 

[Coyote]

Oops...one of the images didn't show, here it is again:

Here is a map showing the the agreed upon partition of Palestine UN partition to create the state of Israel.

Here is the text that accompanies the map:

Israel founded: UN partition plan
The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an international city. The plan, which was rejected by the native Arabs, was never implemented.​

 

[palerider]

The un resolutionis meaningless. It was an illegal attempt to redefine the borders of a sovriegn nation.

 

[Coyote]

The un resolutionis meaningless. It was an illegal attempt to redefine the borders of a sovriegn nation.

Fact: it wasn't a nation before the UN resolution - there was no Israel unless you go back 3000 years and that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

[palerider]

Fact: it wasn't a nation before the UN resolution - there was no Israel unless you go back 3000 years and that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Sorry, it was a nation. The UN resolution attempted to redefine the borders of a soveriegn nation and as such, was completely invalid.

With regard to the numbers of inhabitants, I am afraid that I can't provide a link to a source that contradicts you. Give me a bit of time, however, and I can give you a bibliography of histories, period observations, and period encyclopedias that I have read that simply do not jibe with the numbers you have provided. I tend to believe writers and travelers who were on the ground describing what they were seeing in a time before there was a political agenda with regard to the area to consider more than figures not based on any census ever conducted fabricated to support a political agenda.

 

[Coyote]

Sorry, it was a nation. The UN resolution attempted to redefine the borders of a soveriegn nation and as such, was completely invalid.

With regard to the numbers of inhabitants, I am afraid that I can't provide a link to a source that contradicts you. Give me a bit of time, however, and I can give you a bibliography of histories, period observations, and period encyclopedias that I have read that simply do not jibe with the numbers you have provided. I tend to believe writers and travelers who were on the ground describing what they were seeing in a time before there was a political agenda with regard to the area to consider more than figures not based on any census ever conducted fabricated to support a political agenda.

The figures I provided were from a census of that time period from people who were there at the time - not a revision from today. There were no political agendas as such that needed to be supported then.

What sovereign nation? Where is it's mandate - it's proclamation of existance?

I cited Israel's own Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel as read by David Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948. At that date Israel became a sovereign nation. What ever existed prior is irrelevant.

 

[Lasher]

I find it offensive that you call me anti-semitist when I am not at all, and it just shows that your argument lacks strength, so you pull out a prejudice and racism card.

I do not hold anything against the people of Israel, or any Jews all over the world, I have many Jewish friends. I just do not agree with Israel being there.

Pay him no mind, he is using the same old worn-out defense of Israel's atrocities that all Zionists use, calling anyone who speaks a single word against the illegal state of Israel an anti-Semite, Jew hater, Nazi, Fascist, and many other names that they hope will deflect all bad publicity away from them and onto the one bringing the allegations to light. It is the same old tactic they have been using for decades, and most people are catching on to their attempts at deflecting.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I guess you missed the other five pages of information, charts, maps, etc.

 

[Coyote]

I guess you missed the other five pages of information, charts, maps, etc.

"...They was taking plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and
they took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each
one was to be used as evidence against us. Took pictures of the approach,
the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to
mention the aerial photography..."

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Haha, is that a referrence to Alice's Restaurant?

 

[Lasher]

Yeah, they exist. If they didn't the state of affairs would be entirely different. The arabs would have something else to complain about.
================
It seems to me the Zionist Jews are doing all the complaining. When the Israelis let the Palestinians back into their homes, or what's left of their homes, then the Jews can complain all they want to; they can go to their wailing wall and wail their black hearts out about having to give back the Palestinians' homes and land, but until they do, they have nothing at all to complain about. I want to complain about my tax money being given to Israel in the form of bombs, planes, tanks, and bullets that are used by the Jooos to murder innocent Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

Haha, is that a referrence to Alice's Restaurant?

....

 

[Lasher]

Can I just throw another idea out...

Israel being there in the first place is more unjust than this. A 2,000 year old religious stake on a piece of land now inhabited by other people is not something that should be acted upon.

Correct! One would have to prove the existence of God to rely on the ancient writings in the Old Testament by a bunch of people who thought the world was flat.

 

[Lasher]

Refer to history coyote. What is now jordan was the bulk of the palestinian mandate. And for the most part, it did. The bulk of israel was swamp land that bedoin migrated through.

This stuff isn't secret knowledge coyote, all one need do is refer to a history book and a few maps. Here is a map of the palestinian mandate prior to drawing in israel:

Here is the present situation:

As you can see, the palestinians have a homeland already, they just aren't wanted. Why is there no pressure on the king of jordan to let them come home?

In order to hold a valid opinion with regard to Israel and the "palestinians" one must first grasp and understand the basic facts. Clearly you have not and do not. Some study on your part is in order before you can hold any sort of valid opinion. I thought you were involved in the discussion between Lilly Marlene and myself. She also had no grasp of the history there and as a result, couldn't defend her position in the face of the facts.

Why are you such a Judeophile? Are you, yourself, Jewish? What benefit to America is Israel, a nation that has caused nothing but chaos , confusion and war ever since it was stolen from the Palestinians, and who can't be relied on to assist us, her "allies," when we are at war in her neighborhood? Israel also is bankrupting us by demanding billions every year for weapons to cause said wars, and spying on us in the bargain to sell our secrets to our enemies.