Palestine

[palerider]

SE85.

I don't know what else I could add to your response beyond continuing to point out that the palestinians have a country already. It is called jordan and they simply are not welcome there.

One should reasonably ask why they aren't welcome in jordan and why they do not complain for admission.

The answer invariably comes back to jews living in proximity to arabs. They could give a whit about having a homeland but instead, are very interested in seeing israel dissappear from the map.

 

[9sublime]

SW85,

My position on this is the practicality of Israel being put there. It was someones homeland, and they had Israel forced upon them, just because it is the holy land of the Jewish religion. Those who were forced out of their homes in the area are not Jewish.

Its just the same as Mexico asking for its land back from the US. Israel lost that land a long time ago, Mexico lost that land a long time ago as well. Its simply not practical to go giving it back out when so much has changed.

 

[Bunz]

Can we come to concensus on a few things?
Starting with...
Niether Israel nor its Arab neighbors are innocent and actually quite guilty in terms of bad behavior towards each other?

Israel has a right to exist within its boundries with the necessary security that comes with being a soverign nation.

The Arab-Israelis need not be repressed simply because of thier ethnicity/religion?

If a long term solution to this issue is to come into existance, the past agression on both sides need to be forgiven(not forgotten) and people need to look towards the future and work together?

Is there anybody who disagrees with any of these points? Please explain why.

 

[Coyote]

SE85.

I don't know what else I could add to your response beyond continuing to point out that the palestinians have a country already. It is called jordan and they simply are not welcome there.

One should reasonably ask why they aren't welcome in jordan and why they do not complain for admission.

The answer invariably comes back to jews living in proximity to arabs. They could give a whit about having a homeland but instead, are very interested in seeing israel dissappear from the map.

Well then - lets give Jordan all the land it was supposed to have had.

By the way, I think most Palestinians would be happy to see peace, stability and have their own nation.

Why do you feel Israel is entitled to lands beyond it's mandate but the Palestinians not?

 

[Coyote]

Can we come to concensus on a few things?
Starting with...
Niether Israel nor its Arab neighbors are innocent and actually quite guilty in terms of bad behavior towards each other?

Israel has a right to exist within its boundries with the necessary security that comes with being a soverign nation.

The Arab-Israelis need not be repressed simply because of thier ethnicity/religion?

If a long term solution to this issue is to come into existance, the past agression on both sides need to be forgiven(not forgotten) and people need to look towards the future and work together?

Is there anybody who disagrees with any of these points? Please explain why.

I totally agree.

 

[Bunz]

Why would it be a bad idea to have Jerusalem as an internationally administered city under the control of the UN or some other similar entity?

Considering its location and history as the birth of the big three religions, this will forever be a disputed location as long as one of the big three retains control. Jerusalem should be an international city of peace, tolerance and religion.

 

[vyo476]

Yes, really. First, there never has been a nation called palestine. Refer to the map I provided above. That land mass called the palestinian mandate is what is being referred to. The populations that you refer to lived throughout that entire area. What is israel now was mostly uninhabited swamps occasionally passed through by bedoin.

First, no, there wasn't a nation called Palestine around the time Israel was created. But there hadn't been nations called Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, or Kuwait either. Did they not deserve independence? On their terms, not ours?

Second, your map overlooks an important detail. The broad "Mandate of Palestine" was actually divided in half. One half was known as Palestine; the other half was Transjordan. They were administered separately. Here's the map:

Third, the census figures from the mandate contradict your idea that there weren't many Muslims living in the area. Here's a district-by-district break down of the population in 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine#By_district

This was, notably, before the creation of Israel.

Since most of israel was uninhabited swamps, those displaced were in all likelyhood displaced by jordan.

Sorry, no. Those who are considered internally-displaced refugees had lived in what became Israel.

http://www.badil.org/Publications/Monographs/Palestinian.IDPs.pdf

 

[palerider]

You know, I am all for people forming and holding their own opinions, BUT, in my never to be humble opinion, an opinion that is formed, based, and held on inaccurate information is about as useless a thing as a human being can posess. Those of you who believe that israel should dissappear clearly do not know the history, have no understanding of the law and how israel came into being and therefore must simply wish to see israel dissappear.

Let me see if I can give you some accurate information upon which to base your presently flawed opinions.

On July 24, 1922, it was fifty-one member countries - the entire League of Nations - that published the legally binding document "Mandate for Palestine" and unanimously declared: "Recognition Has Been Given to the Historical Connection of the Jewish People with Palestine and to the Grounds for Reconstituting their National Home in that Country." The Mandate for Palestine laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-mile area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an entitlement unaltered in international law and valid to this day.

With the exception of the golan heights (legally captured land) israel is within the borders originally established for it.

On June 30, 1922 it was a joint resolution of both Houses of Congress of the United States that unanimously endorsed the Mandate for Palestine, confirming the irrevocable right of Jews to settle in the area of Palestine - anywhere between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (the resolution was incorporated in the 1937 Palestine Royal Commission Report, Chapter II, page 31):


Favoring the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

...resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United State of America in congress assembled, That the United States of America favors the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of Christian and all other non-Jewish communities in Palestine, and that the holy places and religious buildings and sites in Palestine shall be adequately protected. [/I][/COLOR]

Palestine is a geographical area, not a nationality. The artificiality of a Palestinian identity is reflected in the attitudes and actions of neighboring Arab nations, which never established a Palestinian state themselves. Nor did the Arabs recognize or establish a Palestinian state during the two decades prior to the Six-Day War when the West Bank was under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control; nor did the Palestinian Arabs clamor for autonomy or independence during those years.

Attempt, if you don't mind to at least begin from a position of fact. You may find that your present opinions are more difficult to hold and defend if they originate in fact rather than the fanciful misinformation from which they presently spring.

 

[palerider]

Why would it be a bad idea to have Jerusalem as an internationally administered city under the control of the UN or some other similar entity?

Considering its location and history as the birth of the big three religions, this will forever be a disputed location as long as one of the big three retains control. Jerusalem should be an international city of peace, tolerance and religion.

Islam was not born in jeruselum. It was born in one of the most desolate regions of the arab pennisula.

 

[Coyote]

You know, I am all for people forming and holding their own opinions, BUT, in my never to be humble opinion, an opinion that is formed, based, and held on inaccurate information is about as useless a thing as a human being can posess. Those of you who believe that israel should dissappear clearly do not know the history, have no understanding of the law and how israel came into being and therefore must simply wish to see israel dissappear.

I think you start off with a very wrong assumption here. I don't think anyone wishes Israel to "disappear". The fact of the matter is Israel is here, it exists, it's a nation - and it's here to stay. Arab states that have thus far refused to recognize that need to get on the ball and do so.

However, what this is is effectively creating a strawman. The issue is not the existance of Israel, it's:

• Israel's legitimate boundaries
• Recognition of Israel's right to exist
• Recognition of the Palestinian suffering
• Israel's (and the world's) ethical obligation to the Palestinian refugees
• the very real need to establish an equitable workable peace plan that addresses at least some of the core issues for both Israel and the Palestinians, and that addresses the UN resolutions

I think you are the one who is basing your opinion on the wrong information.

Palestine was not uninhabited.

Even IF Jordan should take in all the Palestinian refugees (assuming they can realistically do so) - because Jordan was supposed to be a Palestinian state - then you have to address the fact that a large portion of the land that Israel holds as occupied territory and that the Palestinians currently reside in - was supposed to be part of Jordan (at least according to the map). You really can't use history to justify the claims of one side, and then disregard it when it comes to the claims of the other side.

However - all that begs reality anyway. Reality being the situation as it is now.

Israel is occupying stolen territory in defiance of multiple UN resolutions - a defiance, I might add, that would constitute sanctions or war if done by a country like Iraq, Syria, or Iran.

The Palestinian people are - whether you call them Palestinians or something else - are living in a humanitarian nightmare. Conditions in their discontinuous physical and legal landscape are such that creating a coherent country and economy would require a miracle.

You can not realistically simply "make them go away" (like to Jordan) - their homes, family, farms and business are in Ghaza, the West Bank etc. Many for generations and generations. Their right to be there is every bit as legitimate as that of Israel.

You also can not disregard Israel's legitimate need for security. No country should have to live with the constant threat of bombs and rockets amongst it's civilian population. Yet you have to look at Israel's own actions in this regard - it's punishing an entire civilian population for the actions of extremists. Everytime it does that - it creates fuel for more extremism. When a people have nothing left to lose - what happens? Is there strategy working? I does not seem to be.

If you want peace - then Israel has to be held to some accountability. Yet attempting to do so leads to charges of anti-semitism, accusations of supporting terrorists, Israel-haters etc. It's nothing of the kind. It's simply acknowledging the realities of a situation in order to move on and attempt to forge real peace.

 

[Coyote]

On July 24, 1922, it was fifty-one member countries - the entire League of Nations - that published the legally binding document "Mandate for Palestine" and unanimously declared: "Recognition Has Been Given to the Historical Connection of the Jewish People with Palestine and to the Grounds for Reconstituting their National Home in that Country." The Mandate for Palestine laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-mile area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an entitlement unaltered in international law and valid to this day.

With the exception of the golan heights (legally captured land) israel is within the borders originally established for it.

On June 30, 1922 it was a joint resolution of both Houses of Congress of the United States that unanimously endorsed the Mandate for Palestine, confirming the irrevocable right of Jews to settle in the area of Palestine - anywhere between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (the resolution was incorporated in the 1937 Palestine Royal Commission Report, Chapter II, page 31):


Favoring the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.

...resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United State of America in congress assembled, That the United States of America favors the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of Christian and all other non-Jewish communities in Palestine, and that the holy places and religious buildings and sites in Palestine shall be adequately protected. [/I][/COLOR]

Palestine is a geographical area, not a nationality. The artificiality of a Palestinian identity is reflected in the attitudes and actions of neighboring Arab nations, which never established a Palestinian state themselves. Nor did the Arabs recognize or establish a Palestinian state during the two decades prior to the Six-Day War when the West Bank was under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control; nor did the Palestinian Arabs clamor for autonomy or independence during those years.

Attempt, if you don't mind to at least begin from a position of fact. You may find that your present opinions are more difficult to hold and defend if they originate in fact rather than the fanciful misinformation from which they presently spring.

This only confirms the right of Jews to settle - not the establishment of a state within those boundaries.

UN Resolution 181 created Israel (from wikipedia):

On 29 November 1947 the United Nations voted a plan for the partition of the British Mandate territory of Palestine to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine. The plan came to be called the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. The plan was approved by the United Nations General Assembly by 33 votes to 13, with 10 abstentions.

The plan would have partitioned the territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area, encompassing Bethlehem, coming under international control.

 

[Coyote]

Islam was not born in jeruselum. It was born in one of the most desolate regions of the arab pennisula.

You keep insisting on that yet...you ignore the population figures presented...it was not uninhabited. 700,000 or so refugees attest to that.

 

[palerider]

Israel's legitimate boundaries

With the exception of the golan heights, Israel is within its legal boundries.

Recognition of the Palestinian suffering

For the most part, self inflicted. Exactly why should israel give up land because of palestinian suffering?

Israel's (and the world's) ethical obligation to the Palestinian refugees

Refugees from where? Certainly not the nation of palestine?

the very real need to establish an equitable workable peace plan that addresses at least some of the core issues for both Israel and the Palestinians, and that addresses the UN resolutions

No plan that includes the continued existence of Israel will be acceptable.

Palestine was not uninhabited.

What you keep calling palestine was in fact, the palestinian mandate. Of course it was inhabited. It included what is today jordan and Israel. The population was in what is now jordan. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps.

Even IF Jordan should take in all the Palestinian refugees (assuming they can realistically do so) - because Jordan was supposed to be a Palestinian state - then you have to address the fact that a large portion of the land that Israel holds as occupied territory and that the Palestinians currently reside in - was supposed to be part of Jordan (at least according to the map). You really can't use history to justify the claims of one side, and then disregard it when it comes to the claims of the other side.

You are kidding, right? Israel doesn't occupy a single acre of land that used to be jordan. The only land that Israel occupies outside of its rightful borders is the golan heights. That land belonged to syria which, by the way, was the place from which the syrians shelled Israel. It's height made it a perfect place from which to fire artillery.

Israel is occupying stolen territory in defiance of multiple UN resolutions - a defiance, I might add, that would constitute sanctions or war if done by a country like Iraq, Syria, or Iran.

Israel righly captured the golan heights after multiple agressors attacked them.

The Palestinian people are - whether you call them Palestinians or something else - are living in a humanitarian nightmare. Conditions in their discontinuous physical and legal landscape are such that creating a coherent country and economy would require a miracle.

Self inflicted nightmare. Let them go to their homeland. jordan.

You can not realistically simply "make them go away" (like to Jordan) - their homes, family, farms and business are in Ghaza, the West Bank etc. Many for generations and generations. Their right to be there is every bit as legitimate as that of Israel.

They were living in uninhabited swamps for many generations? Give me a break. They are puppets, being used by Israel's arab neighbors as a thorn in Israel's side.

You also can not disregard Israel's legitimate need for security. No country should have to live with the constant threat of bombs and rockets amongst it's civilian population. Yet you have to look at Israel's own actions in this regard - it's punishing an entire civilian population for the actions of extremists. Everytime it does that - it creates fuel for more extremism. When a people have nothing left to lose - what happens? Is there strategy working? I does not seem to be.

When the extremists live among the population and the population does nothing to out them to the authorities, then by their silence, they are complicit in the terrorism. They are a community of terrorists and should rightly be driven into extinction if they are unwilling to purge the extremism from their ranks.

If you want peace - then Israel has to be held to some accountability. Yet attempting to do so leads to charges of anti-semitism, accusations of supporting terrorists, Israel-haters etc. It's nothing of the kind. It's simply acknowledging the realities of a situation in order to move on and attempt to forge real peace.

Accoutable for what? Capturing a piece of land from which the SYRIANS fired artillery and set up snipers that shot at children? Furthermore, Israel appealed to the international community for 19 years to put an end to the shelling and sniper fire before they finally took matters into their own hands and captured the area.

In 1974, syria attempted to recapture the land and failed. Afterwards, syria signed a disengagement agreement that left the Golan in Israel's hands. [See map]

The "palestinians" have, and never by any stretch of the imagination held any claim to the occupied territories as that land belonged to syria who signed an agreement leaving it in Israel's hands. We have heard nothing from syria since suggesting that they want it back. Decades of anti semetic misinformation, however, have left folks like you believeing that the occupied territories somehow were taken from the "palestinians" when that simply is not and never was the case.

This only confirms the right of Jews to settle - not the establishment of a state within those boundaries.

It did establish a state and further, the documents established that only the league of nations had the authority to change those boundries. The un resolution was meaningless as it was an illegal attempt to change the boundries of a sovriegn state.

You keep insisting on that yet...you ignore the population figures presented...it was not uninhabited. 700,000 or so refugees attest to that.

I haven't ignored your figures. I have disregarded them because they are faulty. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps. The population you keep mentioning was in what is now jordan. And do just a bit of math. You claim 700,000 refugees. Today, 60 years later, almost 7 million are claiming to be refugees and have a right of return. Do the math. You have been scamed. Only vermin reproduce at such a rate. The fact is that there are harly any who can legitimately claim to be refugees today as most would have died off years ago.

 

[vyo476]

What you keep calling palestine was in fact, the palestinian mandate. Of course it was inhabited. It included what is today jordan and Israel. The population was in what is now jordan. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps.

I've refuted this already. You chose to ignore that refutation.

They were living in uninhabited swamps for many generations? Give me a break. They are puppets, being used by Israel's arab neighbors as a thorn in Israel's side.

That land wasn't all "uninhabited swamps" like you say. I've read about the desert in the south which was (and still is) mostly barren. Then there's the Galilee, with rocky, mountainous terrain; the coastal plain, which has historically been a rich agricultural area; and the Jordan River Valley, which has also been rich in agriculture historically.

http://exact-me.org/overview/p0607.htm

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/tourism4.html

It's not like you to just throw opinions around and not back them up with some research. Let's see some documentation on these uninhabited swamps of yours.

When the extremists live among the population and the population does nothing to out them to the authorities, then by their silence, they are complicit in the terrorism. They are a community of terrorists and should rightly be driven into extinction if they are unwilling to purge the extremism from their ranks.

Words cannot express just how horrified I am at the thought that there are people in the world who think like you do.

It did establish a state and further, the documents established that only the league of nations had the authority to change those boundries. The un resolution was meaningless as it was an illegal attempt to change the boundries of a sovriegn state.

First of all, would you care to highlight the section that establishes a state, and second of all, the League-UN point is a semantic one; by the time the UN came into existence the League of Nations was dead.

I haven't ignored your figures. I have disregarded them because they are faulty. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps. The population you keep mentioning was in what is now jordan.

Have you done anything to prove this? We've linked to our information, now let's see yours.

 

[Coyote]

With the exception of the golan heights, Israel is within its legal boundries.

Incorrect. UN Mandate 181 established the state of Israel and it's legal boundaries. Do you deny this?

For the most part, self inflicted. Exactly why should israel give up land because of palestinian suffering?

You are ignoring evidence to the contrary that points out culpability in both Israel and the Palestinians and the Arab countries for current situation. Territory seized and occupied during war is "occupied territory" under international law. This territory does not lie within the boundaries created by UN Mandate 181 that established the state of Israel.

Come on now Pale - I've never known you to ignore facts before. You haven't even refuted them. This is weak!

Refugees from where? Certainly not the nation of palestine?

Refugees don't have to be from an established "nation". Weak!

No plan that includes the continued existence of Israel will be acceptable.

Again, incorrect. Many Arab states already recognize Israel. With a two state solution and an even handed approach to approach to the peace process (and pressure on the Arabs to get involved in it as well), the dissolution of settlements on occupied land, I think Israel will be recognized.

What you keep calling palestine was in fact, the palestinian mandate.

I already showed you that it existed as Palestine long before the mandate. It may not have been a nation per se but it was a recognized and named region.

Of course it was inhabited. It included what is today jordan and Israel. The population was in what is now jordan. Most of what is now Israel was uninhabited swamps.

The historical demographics I have found don't agree with you - can you show me evidence to the contrary?

You are kidding, right? Israel doesn't occupy a single acre of land that used to be jordan. The only land that Israel occupies outside of its rightful borders is the golan heights. That land belonged to syria which, by the way, was the place from which the syrians shelled Israel. It's height made it a perfect place from which to fire artillery.

Really?

If you look in the Knesset web site you will find the text of the The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel as read by David Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948. That is when Israel became an independent nation.

Here is the map of the British Mandate showing Transjordan and Palestine (which you claim doesn't exist but seem to think it exists sufficiently to give in entirety to Israel.

Here is the text that accompanies the map:

British control: Mandate Palestine
Palestine - comprising what are now Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jordan - was among several former Ottoman Arab territories placed under the administration of Great Britain by the League of Nations. The mandate lasted from 1920 to 1948. In 1923 Britain granted limited autonomy to Transjordan, now known as Jordan.​

Here is a map showing the the agreed upon partition of Palestine UN partition to create the state of Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/img/1947_un_partition300.gif/IMG]

Here is the text that accompanies the map:
[INDENT][I]Israel founded: UN partition plan
The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an international city. The plan, which was rejected by the native Arabs, was never implemented.[/I][/INDENT]

Here is the map showing the final agreed upon armistace line and the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1949:

[IMG]http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/img/1949_armistice_line_300.gif

Here is the text that accompanies the map:

Israel founded: Armistice
War broke out in 1948 when Britain withdrew, the Jews declared the state of Israel and troops from neighbouring Arab nations moved in. After eight months of fighting an armistice line was agreed, establishing the West Bank and Gaza Strip as distinct geographical units.​

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip became distinct geographical units as a result of the 1949 armistice that divided the new Jewish state of Israel from other parts of Mandate Palestine.

From 1948 to 1967, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, was ruled by Jordan. During this period, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military administration.

In the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Israel took control of the western part of Jerusalem, while Jordan took the eastern part, including the old walled city containing important Jewish, Muslim and Christian religious sites.
​

Israel righly captured the golan heights after multiple agressors attacked them.

Two points:

Some of that is in dispute as to what exactly happened and why - as I pointed out in another post.

Second, that makes the Golan Heights occupied territory - not part of the state of Israel under international law and conventions. As I recall - when Sadaam attempted a take over of another country, a war was fought to oust him and confine him to his borders.

Self inflicted nightmare. Let them go to their homeland. jordan.

You are utterly ignoring the facts. These people never lived in Jordan - their ancestral homes and families are in the Palestine/Israel region. This is as stupid as the idea at one time to create a black "homeland" in "Liberia" and send all blacks to it.

They were living in uninhabited swamps for many generations? Give me a break. They are puppets, being used by Israel's arab neighbors as a thorn in Israel's side.

Refute the data then.

When the extremists live among the population and the population does nothing to out them to the authorities, then by their silence, they are complicit in the terrorism. They are a community of terrorists and should rightly be driven into extinction if they are unwilling to purge the extremism from their ranks.

Easily said but very ignorant. When an impoverished population, in an area where unemployment is near 100%, energy, water and food resources erratic and arbritary, where it is held in terror of the extremists on one side and equal terror of Israeli reaction - what are their options? Where do they turn? How do they protect their families? Please, tell me - from the safety of your American homeland.