Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[Mare Tranquillity]

actually it was designed that way but it was not sold that way by FDR.

the government used it to buy votes by opening it up at full benefit to those who would only have qualified for partial prorated benefits.

and it may surprise you to know that the government did not codify FR's promise into law. He knew this of course and signed the bill anyway because he knew he was lying through his teeth.

Having read many of your posts I will not accept what you write without a source. You have a tendency to speak through your hat.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I agreed with his use of non-violent protest.

Good, I was hoping you'd say that. Which brings us to...

So now you want to push the rich people out of America and redistribute their land and wealth?

No, I didn't say that, I was making a point that you don't want to recognize. Gandhi used force in India, the people violated the rights of the owners of land and wealth and gave it to the poor. The British were an invading army, they deserved to be pushed out.

The rich in our country are not an invading army, but you have already ruled out using Gandhian force against them by the people. You have said that the force of the people electing officials that will pass laws to tax the rich is morally wrong. How is it right for India but wrong for America?

Tell me again, why don't you like Communism?

You will have to define communism before I will discuss it. Are you talking Soviet communism or Heuterite communism? Are you meaning extreme socialism or pure communism?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You have no plan for leveling the playing field. You howl about the immorality of taking money to give to others, but you only talk about it now that the rich have the system sewed up. Perhaps you are willing to march in the street to be tasered and pepper gassed--or even hit with that new microwave weapon that burns the nerves--so that you can preserve your "no force" policy. I'm not.

I'm willing to use the Gandhian methods of force, the force of the people to reclaim what has been stolen from them by the people against whom you decline to use force. I just wish that you were as concerned about the poor's rights as you are about the rights of the rich.

Please don't accuse me of advocating guns and bombs because I'm not. I think that the methods of Gandhi can work to bring about a leveling of the playing field.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It's worth 10 minutes of your time.

Ayn Rand would allow people to die in the streets before she would deign to help them, I've no use for her philosophy. She's another one who wished the rich well and f*ck the rest.

 

[GenSeneca]

If I pay into it and I get money out of it, how is that redistribution?

When you pay in, that money goes directly to the people collecting, it doesn't sit in Al Gore's "Lock Box" until you're old enough to collect it. It is a redistribution of wealth. The wealth you get back will not be your own, that was already spent, what you receive (if anything) will be the wealth from the labor of someone else.

SS is a fraud. I suggest you read about Pyramid and Ponzi Schemes to understand how the SS system works.

I have visceral hatred for the military mentality that spends so much on weapons research and empire building.

I don't believe we are empire building but I certainly would agree we have no business nation building or exporting democracy. As for those expensive weapon research projects, our soldiers lives are saved because of our state of the art technology.

I'll see if I can run that down, I was just reading that... maybe it was the new Sun magazine article where they interviewed the economist.

I was just looking at the budget expenditures of the states for 2009 and after just 5 states, California, Washington, Illinois, Texas and Ohio, I'm already at 1/3 of defense spending for that year.

I think your articles claim is bunk and they are counting on you not bothering to look it up for yourself. That's how the "We spend $5,000 a second in Iraq!" fallacy became so popular, people wanted to believe it so they didn't bother looking to see if it was true.

Why not, they have the money.

Try to focus... Your claim was that the Poor are taken advantage of by military spending. I said they get all the benefits the military provides and they don't have to pay for it through taxes. You have not refuted my point or even supported your own, you only offered a Red Herring.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Try to focus... Your claim was that the Poor are taken advantage of by military spending. I said they get all the benefits the military provides and they don't have to pay for it through taxes. You have not refuted my point or even supported your own, you only offered a Red Herring.

Try to focus, Gen, we are discussing the poor being taken advantage of by the rich, it's not confined to the military, I was using that as an example. What's the red herring? Wealth is being consolidated at the top of the pyramid at an increasing rate, I think something should be done about that. I'm alright using Gandhian force and you are not.

Is banking redistribution because I don't get out exactly the same pieces of paper that I put in?

 

[GenSeneca]

You have said that the force of the people electing officials that will pass laws to tax the rich is morally wrong.

I did not say it is morally wrong to tax the rich, they should be taxed for the mutually beneficial services they receive.

It is morally wrong to tax anyone, rich or poor, for the purpose of redistributing wealth.

The question you seem to want an answer to but cannot bring yourself to ask is: How do we redistribute the wealth without using force?

Is that question you would like answered or am I wrong?

You will have to define communism before I will discuss it.

It's very good of you to ask.

The land, media outlets, the means of production and distribution are all owned and controlled by the people or the state. All profits are collected by the state and then the state provides every person with the necessities of life, homes, jobs, food, clothing, etc. It is a totally Egalitarian society where there is an equitable distribution of all wealth. Individuals are obligated to act in the best interest of the common good of society rather than their own self interest. Politicians are democratically elected at every level, and majority rules in all decisions, but there is only one political party allowed to exist, the Communist party.

Does that sound like something that would interest you?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Do you believe that thieves should be allowed to keep what they steal? This country has been looted by robber barons and greedheads for decades, I don't think they should be able to keep their ill-gotten gains, nor do I think that it is morally indefensible to take stolen property back from the thieves who took it.

 

[GenSeneca]

You have no plan for leveling the playing field.

Stopping the violation of rights does level the playing field.

You howl about the immorality of taking money to give to others.

It is immoral. Why should I have a right to your property?

Perhaps you are willing to march in the street to be tasered and pepper gassed--or even hit with that new microwave weapon that burns the nerves--so that you can preserve your "no force" policy. I'm not.

I don't need to. There are other non violent methods to end the violation of rights.

I'm willing to use the Gandhian methods of force, the force of the people to reclaim what has been stolen from them by the people against whom you decline to use force.

Which entails what... Taking everything from those evil rich bastards by force and redistributing it amongst yourselves?

I just wish that you were as concerned about the poor's rights as you are about the rights of the rich.

I know you have trouble absorbing the truth of my statements but my concern for individual rights is for the individual rights of all people, you are the one hung up on everything being about rich vs. poor.

Please don't accuse me of advocating guns and bombs because I'm not. I think that the methods of Gandhi can work to bring about a leveling of the playing field.

Then what... Everyone lives happily ever after? There is a reason that wealth accumulates and you disregard that reason by pretending that the accumulation is due entirely to wealthy people gaming the system. While I don't deny that some rich people do game the system, it is fallacious to say that every rich person has become rich by taking advantage of others. It is like trying to make the case that every poor person is poor because they are stupid and lazy.

 

[GenSeneca]

Ayn Rand would allow people to die in the streets before she would deign to help them, I've no use for her philosophy. She's another one who wished the rich well and f*ck the rest.

Clearly you have absolutely no idea what Rands philosophy was all about.

 

[GenSeneca]

Try to focus, Gen, we are discussing the poor being taken advantage of by the rich, it's not confined to the military, I was using that as an example.

If you were using the military as an example of the poor being taken advantage of by the rich, you failed miserably.

Wealth is being consolidated at the top of the pyramid at an increasing rate, I think something should be done about that. I'm alright using Gandhian force and you are not.

What they did was create a Socialist state, is that what you want?

Is banking redistribution because I don't get out exactly the same pieces of paper that I put in?

Fractional reserve banking is it's own kind of fraud but no, it's not a forced redistribution of wealth, you are not forced to put money in a bank, you are forced to contribute to SS.

 

[GenSeneca]

Do you believe that thieves should be allowed to keep what they steal? This country has been looted by robber barons and greedheads for decades, I don't think they should be able to keep their ill-gotten gains, nor do I think that it is morally indefensible to take stolen property back from the thieves who took it.

How do you tell which ones are thieves?

Who gets to decide where the "reclaimed" money goes?

 

[Capitalist Pig]

Well, that just makes sense. From DailyPaul.com...

US wealth distribution: 10% of US citizens own 70.9% of all US assets

Top 1% own 38.1%
Top 96-99% own 21.3%
Top 90-95% own 11.5%

And it gets much uglier as you proceed downward.

Bottom 40% of population has 0.2% of all wealth.​

You quoted your mom earlier in the thread. It seems she was fond of old sayings. Did she ever tell you this one: You can't get blood out of a turnip?

Mom: Alright kids, I'm gonna bring home a couple pizzas, but you only get some pizza is you do your chores.

Billy: Ok mom.

Timmy: Ok mom.

Jimmy(future liberal): BUT MOOOOMMMM, I won't get any pizza because I won't do what is required of me! Thus your system is clearly unfair because Billy and Timmy will have pizza and I will not!!!

 

[Pandora]

Mom: Alright kids, I'm gonna bring home a couple pizzas, but you only get some pizza is you do your chores.

Billy: Ok mom.

Timmy: Ok mom.

Jimmy(future liberal): BUT MOOOOMMMM, I won't get any pizza because I won't do what is required of me! Thus your system is clearly unfair because Billy and Timmy will have pizza and I will not!!!

I like that analogy.

Most all the government workers were tickled pink when we passed the tax to rape some to pay for others here in our great state of the Peoples Republic of Oregon.

What parent would say oh ok when their child comes to him halfway through the week and says I need more money because I have spent all of my allowance? Will you give them more? What if the child had a good excuse like they started a new hobby and it was more exensive than they first thought??

That is what Oregon does. We give them (even the poor) a great deal of money via Oregon income tax. Oregon has a very high income tax on the poor as well as on every one else and no matter what you give them it is never enough money, they always need more.

They start programs like the methadone clinic where they give Methadone, a synthetic drug that acts like heroin to people for free, or at least free to the user. Tax payers pay through the nose for it. And 100 other stupid programs and when there is not enough money in the budget for all the public employees to get their guaranteed raises, the state threatens to cut police, fire and schools to get more money. Oregon is such a screwed up state.

We have this thing in Oregon called the kicker. When Oregon government takes too much of our money the law says they have to return it. Very few times has money actually been returned, they always seem to find a way to keep the extra after over taxing us.

Right after this tax passed our do nothing governor said he wants to keep our kicker checks as well. No matter what you give these vampires its never going to be enough.

 

[PLC1]

Gotta love the ignore function.

It makes GenSen so much more personable... almost human.

and it saves you the trouble of actually addressing any of the points she has been making.