Oil: Open question to Liberals

[Sihouette]

Advocating Socialism
2. Advocating Socialism
3. Advocating Socialism

And what pray tell do you think public schools, roadways, lands for communal use, national guard and military are? Capitalist entities?

Socialism has been woven into the very fabric of the US. We keep it balanced by promoting the Constitution. And if I had to choose between socialism and the current reign of fascism, I know where I'd cast my ballot. Extremes breed extremes. When the capitalistic endeavors of a monopoly mega-corporation turn into a fascist state, it's time to inject a little socialism antidote.

Localized and subsidized clean energy is no longer some option we can choose or not at our whim. It's a do-or-die situation brought about by the excesses of capitalism itself. No pure state of government is healthy for its populace.

Have fun driving on those socialist road surfaces today folks. Your collective taxes paid for their construction and maintainence for the good of all *shudder* ...LOL!

 

[Andy]

maybe I said it , and we say it, becuse right wing hacks keep useing that straw man all the time.

Straw men are the Rights best Debate partners. Though even then they still lose alot....

What you just said was a straw-man. I have yet to read a thread here where a "right-wing hack" uses this argument. In fact whole reason I made this thread was explicitly because no one seems to answer the question of how your stupid anti-CEO plan will help anything!

Public: "Gas costs a lot!"
Liberal: "Blasted CEOs!!"
Andy: "Um... ok, gas still costs alot, now what?"

Nothing is helped! Which seems to be the universal answer to all problems by all Liberals, is to do nothing, or make the problem worse!

Your liberal idiots on capital hill plan to... A: Increase taxes (oh that will clearly drop the price), B: Take over Big Oil (another great plan that hasn't worked anywhere it's tried), C: break our relations with Saudi Arabia (oh yeah then they'll really want to help lower prices...) All the plans are... are just... BRILLIANT!

Not one single plan proposed by DemoLibs in our government will actually help anything at all.

Not surprising when the Liberals here on this forum ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. Not one has a plan, a solution, or anything that will help.

 

[Andy]

subsidizing a new form of energy and new Research makes at least some sense, even if not all need it anymore. But Oil where they are making billions ? what do they need Tax money for? To do what they already make billions at but make even more? its dumb.

Subsidies for new forms of energy?

So your plan is corporate welfare? Funny, I thought libs were against corporate welfare. Want to talk about the national debt now? Where exactly do you propose we get the funds for this? Raid the social security fund more? Raise taxes to 50% on everyone like Europe?

Your plan is great. Where do you think most subsidies for alternative fuels go? (psst: rich people. Big corporate CEO types) So now, you've gone from shoot them, to give them money in the name of alternative fuels... I'm I getting you plan right??

 

[Andy]

Hemp oil was used for motor oil before petroleum, we have synthetic oils, and plastics made from plants. If we focus on replacing power generation uses with other forms of power we will extend our supplies for the necessary uses of petroleum. You sound as if we are defeated before we start

I do not suggest that we can't actually replace all uses of oil. We can. And we can have a cost of living rate blast through the stratosphere doing it. Plastic made from plants is vastly more expensive than that of petrol based. Are you willing to pay $200 for an plant chair, when an oil chair is $140?

And have we not learned anything from Ethanol subsidies? Imagine what happens when farmers start growing crops for fuel AND plastic, instead of food? BRILLIANT!

Sure we can replace oil completely, and turn the US into a 3rd world country. That's where we are heading, and we'll get there.

c'mon, this is the US, we can figure things out so that we don't have to keep doing the stupid stuff that has gotten us into our dependence on foreign oil.

We already know the answer to that. We prevented exploration and drilling, hampering our oil production, forcing us to import. Easy

Let's use the subsidy money to do useful research or rebuild infrastructure like the railroads so that we can have rational public transit like in Europe.

Better yet, cancel all Subsidies, and pay off the national debt, and with the extra billions, lower taxes.

Shoot! We have let the infrastructure in our country deteriorate something awful, I just saw where Amtrack only has 662 passenger cars for the whole country and with the gas crunch most of the trains are sold out. What we've done for decades by letting our railroads, roads, and bridges go begging for maintenance is insane, now we've got $5 a gallon diesel and we're dependent on trucks for a huge amount of our freight delivery. We've been goin' the wrong way for a long time and now we need to recognize that and change our direction.

Freight by truck is still cheaper than by railroad, and if I'm not mistaken, government broke up the railroads.

According to economists studying the costs of our Middle East war we are spending $5000 per second for a cost of nearly 3 trillion dollars when one figures in the care for the thousands of wounded Americans and the staggering cost of replacing all the equipment that has been used up, destroyed, or lost.

I don't believe that. Sounds like fuzzy math, especially when you consider the current budget that goes specifically for this war, and the fact that we are currently pulling back while the Iraqi forces are stepping up. And given it was a needed action in leu of Saddam's attempts to gain WMD and establish working relationships with terrorist groups.... this is a cost that is well worth it.

One cannot pull that kind of money out of any country's economy and expect it to survive.

Just like all the other wars we have completed and survived. The guy sold you snake oil. He just played a numbers game on you, and you bought it.

Do you realize that our military budget is bigger than the next 10 biggest military budgets in the world combined? That's insane and we can't afford to keep spending like that without destroying our economy. There's more than enough money to solve our problems if we spend it wisely, killing people halfway around the world is hardly wise.

In my mind... a dirty bomb blowing up in the middle of town... or a slightly larger military budget... hmmm.. tough choice... hmmm....

 

[Andy]

The solutions to the energy crises aren't as hard as BigOil is making them out to be.

They want it to seem hard, expensive and impractical to maintain their price-fixing record-profit making hold on the market of energy consumption. It's the biggest industry in America after all and they're just being good capitalists..

Show me one instance where Big Oil has made anything out to be hard? I have yet to see anything from any oil company that has suggested that any alternative energy source is anything. The people researching the alternative energy sources, is where I get most of the information about it being impractical, expensive, and hard.

1. Increase all forms of acceptable and safe (not nuclear>they use this as a scare-tactic to herd people back to oil) technology at-site. In other words if the city in question is located next to thermal vents, you use geothermal. If the city sits in the desert, you use solar. If the city is Chicago, you use wind..and so on. If the city is near a natural water fall/flow you use hydro. Each city has an energy authority and centralizes a power grid to serve its citizens who either pay a premium or are taxed to support the energy production. In most cases costs should be quite low since most alternative types of energy cost most to setup and very little to maintain and keep running.

Geothermal, Solar, Wind, and water power, all make electricity... Oil isn't used to make electricity, so why would the oil companies give a crap about them? Oh wait... THEY WOULDN'T!! Doh you are BRILLIANT!

So, your plan is to use Geo, Solar, Wind, Water, to make electricity, in order to lower gasoline prices? BRILLIANT!!

2. Maximize efficiency in the types of things that still need fossil fuels...until hydrogen car technology stops being suppressed by BigOil, we make laws that no passenger car is allowed to get under 40 mpg. Give tax breaks and subsidies to people who carpool or use mass transit. Keep the prices of gas high for commuters but low for shippers/trucking/farming companies and other vital suppliers of goods to keep food and merchandise prices low, spurring the vitality of the economy. For farmers who utilize alternatives to petrol products like using wind or sun, hydro or geothermal to power their farms and who employ organic methods that eliminate or greatly reduce petroleum based peticides and herbicides..more subsidies and tax breaks. In other words we give people incentives to conserve while still keeping our economy rolling and productive.

Right.... so your theory is that BigOil is surpressing Hydrogen technology, that they supply the hydrogen for? That's the dumbest thing you've said this thread.

Right... so you believe that car pooling makes you a better person than someone who can't, and thus you deserve a tax break? So much for all men are equal huh? Little bit of elitism there if you ask me.

Right... so like that salmonella Spinach deal, which was caused by using 'organic' methods, should be repeated nation wide, or taxed heavily? So much for public health eh?

3. Give tax incentives to BigOil to join up with #1 and #2, or else.. Pass legislation forcing BigOil to carve a fraction of their megaprofits to fund development of alternative energy production sites all over the nation, giving them shares in exchange in the companies themselves but never allowing them to gain dominant shareholding, keeping the maximum at say, 30%. Pass laws that make preference of more polluting and/or dangerous and/or non-efficient madatorily subjegated to more clean, safe and efficient ones. We can pass "energy efficiency, cleanliness and safety" acts that protect citizens from being manipulated into a war in Iraq and held hostage by one superprovider like BigOil forever.

So your solution to the high cost of oil, is to force them to fund things that do not add to oil production, or end up being taxed heavily, which in either case doesn't improve oil supply, and will reduce oil prices how?

Ah so your theory is that Big Oil, manipulated the entire country, by somehow forcing Saddam to kick out the UN inspectors, pursue WMD, attempt to establish relations with terrorist groups, simply to give a reason for the US to attack Saddam, in order to rebuild a post Saddam Iraq, where we gave the Oil wells back to the nation of Iraq specifically to cause them to sell oil to whoever they wish for as much as they wish... which some how is exactly what the oil companies wanted to begin with...

Yeah... I'm right with you on that. Want another hit? You can tell me about that pink bunny that stole your underwear last week.

 

[Andy]

For a time -- assuming we could tap it all, immediately. We can't do either.

So your logic is, since it can't be all done at one time, then why bother? How does this thought help the problem?

Here is my claim. We don't truly know what is here because... WE CAN'T FRIKIN LOOK FOR IT.... (deep breath) So I think we should try. What can it possibly hurt to look and tap whatever sources we can find? Even if we increase our national output by just 10%, that's 10% less imported from expensive locations. And who knows... we could be standing on a trillion barrel stash of oil that could eliminate us from importing for a 100 years. To me that's worth it. But we'll never know IF WE DO NOT LOOK! And they don't look, if they can't drill.

It would produce more crude oil (in time), but to what end?

It may bring oil back under $3 a gallon, which would be nice. But it will not last forever. It will be useful as a means of lessening our dependence on an unstable foreign supply while we arrange for alternative methods of power -- for instance, building, supplying, and bringing online nuclear power plants.

See... you don't know that. We don't know that. We know so little about what oil could be here, it's like a joke. It's possible we could have enough oil to last for 200 more years. We don't know!

Here's what is amazing. Liberals assume that we can't be oil independent, without any evidence what-so-ever. Liberals then assume we can find some magic fuel from nowhere, that will replace oil, without any evidence what-so-ever.

Conservatives, say we should drill for oil, based on evidence there's tons of oil in our lands. Conservatives say we should hope for an alternative energy source, without holding our breath till it comes, based on evidence that none of the current technologies can replace oil.

It's like some of us are in a dream land that defies all logic and common sense.

I'm perfectly OK with drilling domestically, but it must be recognized as a way to keep us going during our transition to alternative energy (namely nuclear, the only worthwhile form of alternative energy out there that I'm aware of).

Great, but until the oil actually runs out, which I don't think it will, why worry about it? Why not just free the industry to do the best they can until that point?

What happens if oil actually does begin to run out? The price will go up as supplies dwindle... all by itself.... As it does, alternative fuels like Bio-diesel, would become market competitive without a single government dollar. No government grants... no corporate welfare... no Ted Turner collecting millions in ethanol subsidies... just free market, plain and simple.

As one energy source becomes more costly, others will fill the void without any need of any controls regulations or government intervention of any kind.

We don't need a plan. We don't need a new grant system. We don't need the government to do jack. Just let the free market work, and get out of the way!

 

[GenSeneca]

And what pray tell do you think public schools, roadways, lands for communal use, national guard and military are? Capitalist entities?

Some of those are covered by the Constitution.

Socialism has been woven into the very fabric of the US.

Unfortunately, yes.... Frog in a pot.

We keep it balanced by promoting the Constitution.

Promotion, you mean highlighting the parts you like and ignoring the parts you don't.

And if I had to choose between socialism and the current reign of fascism, I know where I'd cast my ballot. Extremes breed extremes. When the capitalistic endeavors of a monopoly mega-corporation turn into a fascist state, it's time to inject a little socialism antidote.

The Current Reign of Fascism... Do you even know what Fascism is and promotes? Real Fascism, the stuff from WW2 - not the YOUTUBE "America is Fascist" version.

Capitalistic endeavors of a Monopoly-Mega-Corporation creates a Fascist State... The only MONOPOLY is GOVERNMENT.

Localized and subsidized clean energy is no longer some option we can choose or not at our whim. It's a do-or-die situation brought about by the excesses of capitalism itself. No pure state of government is healthy for its populace.

Do-or-die? I thought the Right did all the FEAR mongering.....
Excesses of Capitalism.... He's talking about Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness - Totally excessive and must be done away with.

Have fun driving on those socialist road surfaces today folks. Your collective taxes paid for their construction and maintainence for the good of all *shudder* ...LOL!

Wow... This is what public schools are filling our kids heads with?

At least go live in one of the many Socialist Utopias before you advocate for bringing that crap here.

 

[Andy]

And what pray tell do you think public schools, roadways, lands for communal use, national guard and military are? Capitalist entities?

Public Schools are an embarrassment... that's what they are. A sure sign that socialism doesn't work.

Roadways are built by capitalist companies who offer services to the government. If they were built by government run social Gulags, our roads would all be crumbling when a Yugo crossed them.

National Guard and Military are all part of the national defense and none of them produce a product. Capitalism is the private ownership of a means of production.

Socialism has been woven into the very fabric of the US. We keep it balanced by promoting the Constitution. And if I had to choose between socialism and the current reign of fascism, I know where I'd cast my ballot. Extremes breed extremes. When the capitalistic endeavors of a monopoly mega-corporation turn into a fascist state, it's time to inject a little socialism antidote.

The fact we have to "balance" socialism with our Constitution, means it's wrong and we shouldn't have any socialism here.

Right, so your plan to turn us into Cuba or pre-1978 China. Maybe you should ask the people swimming here form Cuba or the Chinese workers who used to live in poverty working government controlled rice patties, how much they liked Communism.

Let me save you the trouble. I know more than a few, and they were willing to DIE... to get away from communism. Grow up and learn something. Go type in "boat people" at wiki, and see the hundreds and thousands who fled communism, risking everything for a chance at freedom to become a capitalist and control their own destiny. Yeah, you have a great idea there pal. Turn us into the very thing people fled here to escape. I'm sure millions will love you for it.

Localized and subsidized clean energy is no longer some option we can choose or not at our whim. It's a do-or-die situation brought about by the excesses of capitalism itself. No pure state of government is healthy for its populace.

Right, so your theory is that the excesses of capitalism is what prevented oil companies from building refineries and exploring, and drilling for oil, that prevented them from producing more oil, that forced us to import, and forces us to pay import prices...? Is anyone else NOT seeing the logic of his stupid statement?

Have fun driving on those socialist road surfaces today folks. Your collective taxes paid for their construction and maintainence for the good of all *shudder* ...LOL!

I have yet to see you make one post... just one... that looked like you thought through your statements. I think I found 10 year-olds with better reasoning.