Obama's "read my lips" moment has arrived!

[pocketfullofshells]

Cap and Trade basically taxes business for using products like oil that are not friendly to the environment. Plastic is made using oil. I would wager that a majority of the country uses plastic and a majority of the country does not make $250,000 a year.

Therefore, if you make it more expensive in all stages of the chain to create a product like a bottle of water for example, that cost will get passed on to the person buying that water.

When the producer of the plastic must pay more to make it, and more to ship it, and more to basically do anything to it, they are not going to say "oh well it is for the good of the Earth." What they are going to do is calculate their costs and then pass them on to the customer. I would wager that a majority of customers do not make $250,000 plus a year. Therefore, they are getting hurt under this plan.

Any job created under this plan is basically a job lost in the old manufacturing system as well, so there is no real gain except we pay more for things in the short term. Obama predicts that the impact will be minimal, but most of his predictions on economic factors have failed to date. Most business is against the idea, and it is widely believed that this will cause prices to go up across the board on many things. To what extent can be debated, but even the President admits there will be an increase.

first I am not sure how you make a judgement on his econ predictions when they are all for long term, no one expected a next day turn around. But things are getting better, as someone in sales, I can get a good sense , and the numbers are showing the right signs for a turn.

Next of course buisnesses are against it when it can cost some of them money...if it was up to them they would pay for nothing. They would love to pollute for free all they can , fact is there are costs to there pollution in health and envirment and someone has to pay for them. The companies of the US are not going to cut pollution just to be good, .

 

[BigRob]

first I am not sure how you make a judgement on his econ predictions when they are all for long term, no one expected a next day turn around. But things are getting better, as someone in sales, I can get a good sense , and the numbers are showing the right signs for a turn.

Well when his economic team says pass the stimulus and unemployment will not go above 8.5% I would classify that as a failure.

Next of course buisnesses are against it when it can cost some of them money...if it was up to them they would pay for nothing. They would love to pollute for free all they can , fact is there are costs to there pollution in health and envirment and someone has to pay for them. The companies of the US are not going to cut pollution just to be good, .

No they are not, nor are they going to eat losses to be good.

 

[Bob the Builder]

first I am not sure how you make a judgement on his econ predictions when they are all for long term, no one expected a next day turn around. But things are getting better, as someone in sales, I can get a good sense , and the numbers are showing the right signs for a turn.

We can make those judgements because history shows us that he's making the same mistakes the FDR did, only on steroids, and it's having the same end result...NADA. FDR spent a TON of money, instituted unconstitutional programs, and for all of it he accomplished NOTHING towards pulling us out of the depression, history shows us that if anything his programs and expendatures prolonged it! His programs have saddled us with more debt that ALL PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED, and thus far they have accomplished nothing except for bankrupting our children and grandchildren!

FDR's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr. said it best, "We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get jobs. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot."

 

[top gun]

Cap and Trade basically taxes business for using products like oil that are not friendly to the environment. Plastic is made using oil. I would wager that a majority of the country uses plastic and a majority of the country does not make $250,000 a year.

Therefore, if you make it more expensive in all stages of the chain to create a product like a bottle of water for example, that cost will get passed on to the person buying that water.

When the producer of the plastic must pay more to make it, and more to ship it, and more to basically do anything to it, they are not going to say "oh well it is for the good of the Earth." What they are going to do is calculate their costs and then pass them on to the customer. I would wager that a majority of customers do not make $250,000 plus a year. Therefore, they are getting hurt under this plan.

Any job created under this plan is basically a job lost in the old manufacturing system as well, so there is no real gain except we pay more for things in the short term. Obama predicts that the impact will be minimal, but most of his predictions on economic factors have failed to date. Most business is against the idea, and it is widely believed that this will cause prices to go up across the board on many things. To what extent can be debated, but even the President admits there will be an increase.

I don't think there's disagreement that there is a cost involved. Estimates are a possible trickle down effect of somewhere between $110 and $175 per family per year. However a responsible administration (or country for that matter) can't just continue to ignore serious problems because better regulations raise some business costs.

To say that bis to sat we should have allowed businesses to keep dumping toxic waste & sewage directly into our waterways or not require scrubber systems on coal fired power plants because it was "cheaper" for them to operate that way.

As far a jobs. Sure there will be always be some jobs that go away... don't see very many blacksmiths anymore either. But then we got all those jobs in all the plastics related industries.

And there will be a huge amount of new jobs created... jobs that are forward looking. At on time coal & wood stoves were the norm for cooking. America made coal & wood stoves. Things advance over time. It's like when microwave started out, new technology, unbelievably more energy efficient and much quicker. Now I'd be willing to bet you know almost know on that doesn't own one.

It will be ok.

 

[top gun]

We can make those judgements because history shows us that he's making the same mistakes the FDR did, only on steroids, and it's having the same end result...NADA. FDR spent a TON of money, instituted unconstitutional programs, and for all of it he accomplished NOTHING towards pulling us out of the depression, history shows us that if anything his programs and expendatures prolonged it! His programs have saddled us with more debt that ALL PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED, and thus far they have accomplished nothing except for bankrupting our children and grandchildren!

FDR's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr. said it best, "We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get jobs. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot."

The fact is FDR not only helped pull America out of the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl times of the Dirty 30's but he did it for the best of reasons... he loved the American people, American families and was not content to just sit on the sidelines in a do nothing, let them suffer, who cares it's there problem, the free market will take care of this, Herbert Hoover, Republicant approach.

And the AMERICAN PEOPLE loved FDR for it. A few nay sayers does not trump THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS A WHOLE.

You make a quote by a nay sayer... let's look at what almost all regular Americans that were actually being affected were thinking... and saying.

The 1932nd psalm went:

'Hoover is my shepherd, I am in want,

He maketh me to lie down on park benches,

He leadeth me by still factories,

He restoreth my doubt in the Republican Party.'

And as for the people and FDR...

Roosevelt converted retreat into advance through his New Deal programs, addressing poverty, unemployment, and the floundering economy. Through his reforms, Roosevelt created a new kind of presidency, more powerful and more intimate than that of his predecessors. Congress allowed him free reign, giving him executive power to put through his reforms without a quibble during the first 100 days of his presidency. Yet a man at the time observes, "My mother looks upon the president as someone so immediately concerned with her problems and difficulties that she would not be greatly surprised were he to come to her house some evening and stay for dinner."

It was widely reported that at the time of FDR's death a reporter on the streets asked a man reading the news and visibly shaken and weeping...

You seem very upset. Did you personally know President Roosevelt?

The man holding back tears looked up and softly said... No, but he knew me.

 

[BigRob]

I don't think there's disagreement that there is a cost involved. Estimates are a possible trickle down effect of somewhere between $110 and $175 per family per year.

We both know these estimates are on the low end and there are much higher estimates out there.

However a responsible administration (or country for that matter) can't just continue to ignore serious problems because better regulations raise some business costs.

A responsible administration could come up with a plan to create incentives for green energy, instead what we are doing is trying to change behavior through taxes. With the current economic conditions, business should be getting all the help it can get, not taxed more.

As far as jobs. Sure there will be always be some jobs that go away... don't see very many blacksmiths anymore either. But then we got all those jobs in all the plastics related industries.

And there will be a huge amount of new jobs created... jobs that are forward looking. At on time coal & wood stoves were the norm for cooking. America made coal & wood stoves. Things advance over time. It's like when microwave started out, new technology, unbelievably more energy efficient and much quicker. Now I'd be willing to bet you know almost know on that doesn't own one.

Yes there will be jobs created, but just as many jobs lost in the process. Additionally, think about the guy who has worked in the manufacturing field for something like 20 years. When his job is lost and he shifts to a new "green" job, the new company is not going to be giving him the benefits that 20 years at a company would have gotten him at his other job. This is another problem for this that no one seems to be addressing.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Well when his economic team says pass the stimulus and unemployment will not go above 8.5% I would classify that as a failure.



No they are not, nor are they going to eat losses to be good.

actuly that is more likey, we eat costs all the time and dont pass them on. but regardless, unlike some, I dont expect something for nothing. and will trade better air and envirement for a few extra cents to make something. there is also the cost savings to health care for cleaner air, and there are costs to pollution that one would have to factor in. global warming has its own costs , and those costs can be high...and to many don't factor those in.

its like eating a big mack for lunch and dinner..the meal cost 5 bucks, so 10 a day , so thats 3650 a year in cost....but we all know that thats not the real full cost of what you pay for do to that. the heart attack from it cost you 500,000 ( I have no idea what that actually would cost , but I know its not cheap so that may be off one way or the other but you get the point.)

as far as some people go, if you don't believe in global warming is made made and real, well then there is no point to debate the issue because one have to believe in that part for any of the rest to mean anything.

I read a interesting article yesterday on global security that was military going green, was kinda interesting this just reminds me of, Think I will post that ...

 

[pocketfullofshells]

We both know these estimates are on the low end and there are much higher estimates out there.



A responsible administration could come up with a plan to create incentives for green energy, instead what we are doing is trying to change behavior through taxes. With the current economic conditions, business should be getting all the help it can get, not taxed more.




Yes there will be jobs created, but just as many jobs lost in the process. Additionally, think about the guy who has worked in the manufacturing field for something like 20 years. When his job is lost and he shifts to a new "green" job, the new company is not going to be giving him the benefits that 20 years at a company would have gotten him at his other job. This is another problem for this that no one seems to be addressing.

If you have a idea on what would drive companies to cut pullution in a major way, with no cost to them, and no punishement for putting out more pollution...I would love to hear it, becuse I cant think of one. Say I have a company, I have a smoke stack thats putting out alot of pollution.. for 400,000 I could put something in that cut it down by 30%....but would not let me make anything faster or better or make more money....why would I do it? only reason would be 1 good will, your just a good person who wants to do the right thing ( this would be about 1% of major companies) or 2 good will advertising to say look how good we are, and try to drive up sales ( possible.

one could say tax cut, but just as how increasing the taxes could get passed on to the cust...a tax break is money that would be going to schools or roads or services...that will now need to come from someplace else...thus we all pay a price for this as well. Also there are a pretty sizeable amount of tax breaks for things like this on the books already I belive.

 

[BigRob]

actuly that is more likey, we eat costs all the time and dont pass them on.

I do not know where you work, depending on profit margins and other factors a business could eat more cost, however historically this is never the trend.

but regardless, unlike some, I dont expect something for nothing. and will trade better air and envirement for a few extra cents to make something. there is also the cost savings to health care for cleaner air, and there are costs to pollution that one would have to factor in. global warming has its own costs , and those costs can be high...and to many don't factor those in.

I am all for going green if you want to, but create incentives to do so, not penalties for not doing so, especially in the middle of a recession.

 

[BigRob]

If you have a idea on what would drive companies to cut pullution in a major way, with no cost to them, and no punishement for putting out more pollution...I would love to hear it, becuse I cant think of one. Say I have a company, I have a smoke stack thats putting out alot of pollution.. for 400,000 I could put something in that cut it down by 30%....but would not let me make anything faster or better or make more money....why would I do it? only reason would be 1 good will, your just a good person who wants to do the right thing ( this would be about 1% of major companies) or 2 good will advertising to say look how good we are, and try to drive up sales

Or the government could give you big tax credits for doing that, as opposed to fining you for not doing it.

one could say tax cut, but just as how increasing the taxes could get passed on to the cust...a tax break is money that would be going to schools or roads or services...that will now need to come from someplace else...thus we all pay a price for this as well. Also there are a pretty sizeable amount of tax breaks for things like this on the books already I belive.

Historically, in many cases, the lower the tax rates the more revenue the government brings in. The idea is lower taxes on business create more demand for workers, thus driving those wages up, as well as employment. As this occurs more people are therefore paying taxes and making more money and the government with the same or lower rates can easily generate the same or more amount of money.

 

[top gun]

We both know these estimates are on the low end and there are much higher estimates out there.

We don't know that at all. The estimates are the estimates. That's all we know.

A responsible administration could come up with a plan to create incentives for green energy, instead what we are doing is trying to change behavior through taxes. With the current economic conditions, business should be getting all the help it can get, not taxed more.

MORE CORPORATE WELFARE!!!!!! That's your solution! Please...

The fact is if your way was the real fair and right way there should be no regulations on pollution at all. All those pesky "pollution" things cost business money. We should just go back to open dumping into our rivers & streams... that was MUCH cheaper was it not?

Business has had all the opportunities in the world to self regulate. What do they do? NOTHING! Why? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TOO!

The fact is our all of us and our kids have to drink that water & breath that air and suffer the effects of pollution related climate change and energy shortages.

Why wouldn't the one's doing the most damage in all these areas be responsible for lessoning their own impact? Obviously they should.

Yes there will be jobs created, but just as many jobs lost in the process. Additionally, think about the guy who has worked in the manufacturing field for something like 20 years. When his job is lost and he shifts to a new "green" job, the new company is not going to be giving him the benefits that 20 years at a company would have gotten him at his other job. This is another problem for this that no one seems to be addressing.

WHAT! Hell you guys were for throwing American Union autoworkers out or cutting their pay & benefits and never blinked once. Now all the sudden you're the advocate for the manufacturing sector... come on you're killin' me!

The fact is there will a change in the types of jobs as our country moves forward dictated by the old saying... necessity is the mother of invention. These things have to be done. We can't Republicant it any longer and just say NO WE CAN'T... while kicking the can down the road.

That's just plain backward thinking. If America thought that way we'd all still be riding horses to work and the livery stable and blacksmithing business would be booming.

Just like the industrial revolution and the technology revolution here's the next one... the green revolution...

Solar panels, wind turbines... specialty low energy lighting & insulation products... hybrid, electric and fuel cell cars all will become some popular not being in on this new wave will be like not having a microwave oven.

It's not like we haven't made huge changes before when the need arose. YES WE CAN... do it again!

 

[BigRob]

We don't know that at all. The estimates are the estimates. That's all we know.

Are you telling me you are unaware that there are much higher estimates out there?

MORE CORPORATE WELFARE!!!!!! That's your solution! Please...

American business currently pays one of the highest tax rates in the world. Also, we are in a crisis that we are told is a grave as the Great Depression. Let us imagine for a moment that you were a business.

Say you like doing things one way. You also pay a huge amount of taxes. The government comes to you and says TopGun, you can no longer do that without paying more in taxes. Rightfully, you would be upset or have to make cutbacks to cover the new costs of switching to a new way of doing things or covering the new tax to maintain your current lifestyle.

Business has had all the opportunities in the world to self regulate. What do they do? NOTHING! Why? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TOO!

The fact is our all of us and our kids have to drink that water & breath that air and suffer the effects of pollution related climate change and energy shortages.

No one is saying there should be no regulations, however you seem to claim that if we do not all go "green" our water will be undrinkable and the air unbreatheable. What we need is not to penalize those who cannot change, but offer an incentive to get people to do it.

WHAT! Hell you guys were for throwing American Union autoworkers out or cutting their pay & benefits and never blinked once. Now all the sudden you're the advocate for the manufacturing sector... come on you're killin' me!

When a company fails on its own, it fails. When it fails because the government all but mandates its failure, that seems somewhat different in my view.

The fact is there will a change in the types of jobs as our country moves forward dictated by the old saying... necessity is the mother of invention.

A change yes, probably not a net gain of any kind in jobs, but a change. However, I still anticipate problems for Democrats when manufacturing jobs start going away and people (who typically vote Democrat) find themselves 20 years in and their company gone.

These things have to be done. We can't Republicant it any longer and just say NO WE CAN'T... while kicking the can down the road.

Democrats have absolute control over this country. Why is it that you still feel inhibited by a Republican?

That's just plain backward thinking. If America thought that way we'd all still be riding horses to work and the livery stable and blacksmithing business would be booming.

Just like the industrial revolution and the technology revolution here's the next one... the green revolution... [/quote]

The industrial revolution was economically viable immediately, that is not exactly the case right now with the "green" business.

Solar panels, wind turbines... specialty low energy lighting & insulation products... hybrid, electric and fuel cell cars all will become some popular not being in on this new wave will be like not having a microwave oven.

Microwave ovens took off due to an actual demand. Gasoline is not that expensive and the current electric cars are awful. What we are doing is mandating that they become popular, not actually letting someone make one that is popular.

 

[top gun]

Are you telling me you are unaware that there are much higher estimates out there?

I'm telling you that the GAO (Government Accounting Office) which is nonpartisan and other nonpartisan sources say between $110 and $175 per family per year is a good estimate. I'm simply going with their professional nonpartisan assessment.

American business currently pays one of the highest tax rates in the world. Also, we are in a crisis that we are told is a grave as the Great Depression. Let us imagine for a moment that you were a business.

Say you like doing things one way. You also pay a huge amount of taxes. The government comes to you and says TopGun, you can no longer do that without paying more in taxes. Rightfully, you would be upset or have to make cutbacks to cover the new costs of switching to a new way of doing things or covering the new tax to maintain your current lifestyle.

The fact is this. You make the pollution... you should have to pay to clean up that polution. The fact is that this is the exact same story that's been repeated over & over again every single time a pollution issue and business has come up. They said it was too expensive not to just dump toxins & raw sewage straight into our rivers & streams... they said it was too expensive to have to put scrubbers on coal burning power plant smoke stacks... I could cite chapter and verse the EXACT same argument over & over again.

The fact is we now have those regulations and the sun still came out tomorrow. This is nothing more than big business lobbying for more Corporate Welfare so they don't have to pay for something THEY cause.

As far as the business tax rates I can also tell you this. There are Tax Abatements all over the frickin' place. Hell that's the first thing I'd do to generate revenue. I'd set a Federal Law so that these corporations couldn't just keep jumping around from state to state looking to pay ZERO state taxes.

No one is saying there should be no regulations, however you seem to claim that if we do not all go "green" our water will be undrinkable and the air unbreatheable. What we need is not to penalize those who cannot change, but offer an incentive to get people to do it.

I'm saying that it's time to move forward... take another step toward a cleaner & safer environment. That's all this is. Every single year there are more people hence more vehicles, more products manufactured, and more utilities online & strained.

It's a pay me now or pay me later scenario. But if we pay later it will cost more and we'll all have the additional detrimental health consequences.

When a company fails on its own, it fails. When it fails because the government all but mandates its failure, that seems somewhat different in my view.

If a company can't operate within reasonable pollution & environmental guidelines then the probably should fail. It's like them saying... Oh, Workers Compensation Insurance is just too much. If you make us cover our workers for things that ARE OUR COMPANY'S FAULT then we just can't operate.

Well ok... then I guess they can't operate. Let's see if the free market can bring in someone else that can. I bet they do.

A change yes, probably not a net gain of any kind in jobs, but a change. However, I still anticipate problems for Democrats when manufacturing jobs start going away and people (who typically vote Democrat) find themselves 20 years in and their company gone.

I'm sure in the long run it will be a plus of some kind. There's a lot of products that hardly no one has yet that everyone will eventually definitely want. It's like when TV's went from CRT to LCD & Plasma. Sold a lot of TV's when the new technology hit even though at first it was rather expensive. But know almost everybody is in that game.

Democrats have absolute control over this country. Why is it that you still feel inhibited by a Republican?

Speaking of TV's have you not been watching the Republicant Obstruction machine on yours? Even with Franken's vote (now that almost 8 months later he's going to get to vote) things aren't just handed out that way. The Republicants will drag each & every process out as long as possible. Do I think in the long run we'll get 80% -90% of what we want? Yes. But it's certainly not because the Republicants want to work together. They're in full bash mode.

Just like the industrial revolution and the technology revolution here's the next one... the green revolution...

The industrial revolution was economically viable immediately, that is not exactly the case right now with the "green" business. [/QUOTE]

But it will be and people are starting to remember things longer & better like when gas was up to over 4 bucks a gallon everywhere and in California over $5 bucks. Them's "I can't afford to get back & forth to work numbers". People are starting to want to look much further ahead on big investments like cars.

Microwave ovens took off due to an actual demand. Gasoline is not that expensive and the current electric cars are awful. What we are doing is mandating that they become popular, not actually letting someone make one that is popular.

But gas will be expensive again and that's a for sure. The Chevy Volt will break new ground as far as electric cars go. And the hybrid market has all kinds of potential to grow. And there's even simple technology out here right now in all 50 states that gets huge MPG. The new VW Jetta TDI (clean turbo diesel) 58.8 mpg highway.

We can do this my friend... seriously we can.

 

[BigRob]

I'm telling you that the GAO (Government Accounting Office) which is nonpartisan and other nonpartisan sources say between $110 and $175 per family per year is a good estimate. I'm simply going with their professional nonpartisan assessment.

So when I go with professional nonpartisan CBO numbers of budget issues and get blasted for being bias I will expect your support.

The fact is this. You make the pollution... you should have to pay to clean up that polution. The fact is that this is the exact same story that's been repeated over & over again every single time a pollution issue and business has come up. They said it was too expensive not to just dump toxins & raw sewage straight into our rivers & streams... they said it was too expensive to have to put scrubbers on coal burning power plant smoke stacks... I could cite chapter and verse the EXACT same argument over & over again.

The fact is we now have those regulations and the sun still came out tomorrow. This is nothing more than big business lobbying for more Corporate Welfare so they don't have to pay for something THEY cause.

They would not create anything there was not a demand for. What this is is an attempt to legislate behavior on the American public.

As far as the business tax rates I can also tell you this. There are Tax Abatements all over the frickin' place. Hell that's the first thing I'd do to generate revenue. I'd set a Federal Law so that these corporations couldn't just keep jumping around from state to state looking to pay ZERO state taxes.

State levels will never compete with federal levels, and federal levels are where the highest amounts come from.

I'm saying that it's time to move forward... take another step toward a cleaner & safer environment. That's all this is. Every single year there are more people hence more vehicles, more products manufactured, and more utilities online & strained.

It's a pay me now or pay me later scenario. But if we pay later it will cost more and we'll all have the additional detrimental health consequences.

I am all for going green, once the market demands that it occur. The government creating false demand and false markets for such products is not helping anyone.

If a company can't operate within reasonable pollution & environmental guidelines then the probably should fail. It's like them saying... Oh, Workers Compensation Insurance is just too much. If you make us cover our workers for things that ARE OUR COMPANY'S FAULT then we just can't operate.

Well ok... then I guess they can't operate. Let's see if the free market can bring in someone else that can. I bet they do.

What free market? The one mandated by the government? Companies fail all the time and should be allowed to do so, the problem is when the government decides what markets will not fail. We can "go green" without the government, and certainly without government mandates to do so.

I'm sure in the long run it will be a plus of some kind. There's a lot of products that hardly no one has yet that everyone will eventually definitely want. It's like when TV's went from CRT to LCD & Plasma. Sold a lot of TV's when the new technology hit even though at first it was rather expensive. But know almost everybody is in that game.

When those products are actually created the market will present itself. Are we creating a market for products that do not yet exist?


[quoteSpeaking of TV's have you not been watching the Republicant Obstruction machine on yours? Even with Franken's vote (now that almost 8 months later he's going to get to vote) things aren't just handed out that way. The Republicants will drag each & every process out as long as possible. Do I think in the long run we'll get 80% -90% of what we want? Yes. But it's certainly not because the Republicants want to work together. They're in full bash mode.[/quote]

I say again, the Democratic party has absolute control over this country. It is time to stop blaming Republicans.

The industrial revolution was economically viable immediately, that is not exactly the case right now with the "green" business.

Then why are we doing it?

But it will be and people are starting to remember things longer & better like when gas was up to over 4 bucks a gallon everywhere and in California over $5 bucks. Them's "I can't afford to get back & forth to work numbers". People are starting to want to look much further ahead on big investments like cars.

But gas will be expensive again and that's a for sure. The Chevy Volt will break new ground as far as electric cars go. And the hybrid market has all kinds of potential to grow. And there's even simple technology out here right now in all 50 states that gets huge MPG. The new VW Jetta TDI (clean turbo diesel) 58.8 mpg highway.

We can do this my friend... seriously we can.

Would anyone be buying these cars if the government was not trying to shove them down our throats? When the market is able to create these cars in a cost efficient manner then so be it, until then, let business figure out how to do it more efficiently. Instead we just have the government telling us tough luck.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

yes yes and yes? fact is people a lot of people wanted these, why do you think when they come out there are waiting lists for them...while used Durangos they have actuly had to throw in a free car to get them off the lot ( yes they have actuly done that, you got a free PT Crusier)