Obama's Fiscal Cliff

I recently read an article that said Congress and the President are just "just kicking the can down the road". That is, during both the Bush and the Obama years, we have just ignored our tax/spending problem - pushing it to be solved at some future (unspecified) date.

Right now we can use financial tricks and borrowing to avoid a crisis, but that can't last forever.

At some point the US is going to reach the point where we can't ignore the problem and it can't be fixed. Massive inflation? Unimaginable unemployment. Business and personal bankruptcy will mean reduced tax income. I wonder how bad things can really get?

well we're printing money because we're having trouble finding people to fund our borrowing. no it certainly cant last forever.

how bad CAN things get ?

what happens when we can't pay our debt load to China ? do they just say 'oh well' ? and what of the rest of our creditors ?

and when (not if) we default what effect does that have on other sovereign debt ?

its a collapse of the global economic system. so no international trade, unimaginable problems for countries that are not self sufficient in energy, food, water, other needed natural resources.

can China feed itself ? where will they go to obtain food if they cannot ?

what does europe do with no energy ?

thats what CAN happen.

and lets be fair.. this can kidking has been goi ng on for quite some time now. plenty of blame to go around.

so America doubles down on this unprecedented escalation in destructive fiscal behavior. we are on track for a two trillion deficit this year and no end in sight.

how are you at hunting and gathering ?
 
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Should we be reading those prepper websites? I can garden, can, and fish. Good thing I live close to a big ocean. :) but the envirowackos will probably make that illegal :mad:

If it ever comes to that you will have far greater problems than you are imagining.

But imagine for a moment the seagull that waits and watches patiently for the small morsel of food while right behind him 35 other seagulls wait to take it right out of his beak. Go fishing after the kind of financial apocalypse you are imagining and you will be that lonely seagull. Yes you should be reading the more sane prepper websites.
 
If it ever comes to that you will have far greater problems than you are imagining.

But imagine for a moment the seagull that waits and watches patiently for the small morsel of food while right behind him 35 other seagulls wait to take it right out of his beak. Go fishing after the kind of financial apocalypse you are imagining and you will be that lonely seagull. Yes you should be reading the more sane prepper websites.

hunting is a lot trickier when you are the hunter AND the hunted.
 
If it ever comes to that you will have far greater problems than you are imagining.

But imagine for a moment the seagull that waits and watches patiently for the small morsel of food while right behind him 35 other seagulls wait to take it right out of his beak. Go fishing after the kind of financial apocalypse you are imagining and you will be that lonely seagull. Yes you should be reading the more sane prepper websites.

That's a great analogy. The seagulls down here are called rats with wings and that's an understatement. As a kid I don't remember them being this aggressive. But those were the days when dogs were allowed on the beach.
 
I feel like the sins of Congress sessions of the past are finally catching up with us. Slowly but surely the house of cards that lobbyists for special interest groups have created, by swapping favors for campaign contributions, are at the tipping point.

For years we have been complaining about lobbyists and political action groups have twisted arms in Congress. Remember the big flap about Congressmen including earmarking? You know, where lawmakers slip pet projects into federal spending bills. Over the past decade Congress-members have lost their ethical bearings. Somehow it is okay to cheat the average tax payer.

Well the day of reckoning is coming. I hope the US citizens become more unified and more educated about the crisis that is building. Thomas Jefferson said, "Democracy demands an educated and informed electorate." I think a lot of people are going to get an abrupt education and become quickly informed once they learn what their representative has done in Washington.
 
I feel like the sins of Congress sessions of the past are finally catching up with us. Slowly but surely the house of cards that lobbyists for special interest groups have created, by swapping favors for campaign contributions, are at the tipping point.

For years we have been complaining about lobbyists and political action groups have twisted arms in Congress. Remember the big flap about Congressmen including earmarking? You know, where lawmakers slip pet projects into federal spending bills. Over the past decade Congress-members have lost their ethical bearings. Somehow it is okay to cheat the average tax payer.

Well the day of reckoning is coming. I hope the US citizens become more unified and more educated about the crisis that is building. Thomas Jefferson said, "Democracy demands an educated and informed electorate." I think a lot of people are going to get an abrupt education and become quickly informed once they learn what their representative has done in Washington.


agreed. and who caused the tip by increasing spending a trillion plus in one fell swoop ?

but youre just as dead from one.cut.as.a thousand...
 
You know you would think any conscientious person, of any degree of intelligence, would think about the strange contradiction involved in denying people the right to unearned wealth (by our laws), while supporting programs that give people unearned wealth.
 
You are such a sucker

The rich abuse the poor in many ways

The playing field is not level

Looking after the poor is the duty of any civilised society and the only way to do it is by government intervention and redistribution

Thousands of years without this have only served to prove how vile the rich are when unchecked
 
You are such a sucker

The rich abuse the poor in many ways

The playing field is not level

Looking after the poor is the duty of any civilised society and the only way to do it is by government intervention and redistribution

Thousands of years without this have only served to prove how vile the rich are when unchecked

Well we all know that government intervention and redistribution has worked really well....:confused:o_O:confused:o_O

It is time to find different approaches to poverty, rather than continuing the outrageously failed left wing socialist policies. But anyone suggesting new solutions to the vexing problem of poverty, is immediately condemned by knee jerk leftists like yourself.

So, it would appear, that leftist politicians do NOT want to solve the problem of poverty. It is all a scam that some of us can see. Others can't.
 
This is a huge subject, but just to hit the highlights:
  • A report by GAO[ http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-318SP#mt=summary ]presents 34 areas where agencies provide similar services to the same populations; or are fragmented across multiple agencies. Also, 47 additional areas describing other opportunities for agencies or Congress to either reduce the cost of government operations or enhance revenue .
  • The standard for implementing any social program should be that it provides a "safety net" for basic survival. For example a housing allowance can be provided where somebody can find a livable place to stay - perhaps an apartment in a cheap area - but no extras. Same applies to food, clothing, etc. - nothing extra. We don't want want zombies walking homeless in the streets. We are a civilized country who we can at least afford to keep our poorest people at a livable level.
  • We need a private oversight commission that once a year reviews the efficiency of our social programs and makes recommendations to Congress (like the GAO) to increase the efficiency of our social programs.
  • And in the end, none of these recommendations will work because our democracy is broken beyond repair.:mad:
 
It might be too late, but good information anyway. http://projects.wsj.com/my-deficit-plan/#sel=0-0-0
Make Your Own Deficit-Reduction Plan. This gives some things that are on the table, but not even talked about in the media, such as: "Raise the eligibility age for Medicare to 67, up from 65".. Most people polled think its a great idea - and saves $300 billion.
"Limit patients’ abilities to sue doctors for medical malpractice" - great idea and it saves $100 billion (at least).
Lots of good ideas, plus it shows you the big new items (such as don't extend Bush Tax Cuts) really is not a big deal if you adjust for ATM. It takes a while to figure it out, but great information.
 
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George Will lays out what Clinton-era policies would look like today had they been continued, or reimposed:

Democrats insist that the manufactured unpleasantness due Jan. 1 is a crisis of insufficient revenue. But Jeffrey Dorfman, a University of Georgia economics professor, thinks arithmetic says otherwise. Writing for RealClearMarkets, he says that possible tax increases and spending cuts would reduce the current deficit by less than a third, leaving a deficit larger than any run by any president not named Obama.

At the end of the Clinton administration, when the budget was balanced (largely by revenue generated by commercialization of the Internet), annual federal spending was $1.94 trillion and revenue was $2.10 trillion. “Adjusting for inflation and population growth since the start of 2001,” Dorfman writes, “today’s equivalents would be $2.77 trillion and $3.00 trillion,” and a $230 billion surplus.

What is to blame for today’s huge imbalance? The George W. Bush tax cuts? The recession? Obama’s spending? Dorfman answers yes, yes and yes — but that “spending is the main culprit” because: Today federal revenue is $2.67 trillion (slightly less than “the Clinton equivalent”) and spending is $3.76 trillion, so we are spending $987 billion more than we would be if we had just increased Bill Clinton’s last budget for inflation and population growth.
We cannot continue to spend at this rate, not without massively confiscatory tax rates across the broad spectrum of earners. We have to cut spending dramatically in order to even get close to balance, and reverse the free-spending trend of the last twelve years. Nothing else will work, and massive confiscation will end up crashing the economy and making the deficit situation even worse.

Look at some real figures
If we do what the liberals want AND we go back to Clinton-era tax rates, we have to go back to Clinton-era spending rates too in order to solve the problem. That means entitlement reform and serious cuts in spending now as well as in the long term. Everything else is simply hobby-horse riding.

Will anyone get serious about addressing the real cause of the crisis? David Harsanyi hasn’t seen any reason for optimism from either side yet:

The “fiscal cliff” deal House Republicans and President Barack Obama are debatingcan be called many things — the “avoiding a political nightmare” deal or a “Yes, Mr. Obama, may I have another” deal — but please let’s stop referring to it as a “deficit reduction” deal. We’ve yet to see a serious proposal on debt.

Actually, by proposing a tax increase for spending with no real corresponding cuts, the president has been arguing for growing deficits. And with a priority on “fairness” over prosperity, any chance of easing the $16 trillion national debt through an economic boom in the near future is improbable. …

But all of Obama’s pro-debt expansion policies don’t excuse Republicans for calling their own proposala “credible” $2.2 trillion plan on “deficit reduction.” Even if we were to concede for a moment that the plan would cut the debt, by the time we realized $2.2 trillion in savings, the Congressional Budget Office projects that debt as a share of GDP will have reached 100 percent. By 2035, we’re looking at 200 percent.

Or put it this way: The entire Republican plan would only pay down the $220 billion in net interest the United States owes on its debt every year. Well, if by some miracle that interest stayed at $220 billion. Which it won’t.

The Republicans’ offer also contains $800 billion in new “revenue” garnered from tax reform — partially from closing loopholes on the wealthy — which surrenders to the notion that “revenue” rather than “spending” drives the deficit.
I’d trade with some revenue for a serious effort to solve the actual drivers of the crisis. So far, I haven’t seen one yet, either — with the exception of Simpson-Bowles, which for all its flaws actuallygets the US moving in the right direction, and the Paul Ryan plan, which has no chance of even getting another hearing in the Senate. Republicans should present Simpson-Bowles in toto and dare Democrats to vote against it.
 
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