Obama Weak,Democrats are in trouble.

[Texas_tea]

I see zero support for the idea that Lincoln was influenced by Marx or Engels. I think he just wanted to keep the union together and did not care about the costs.

If he was truly interested in "just" keeping the Union together, he would not have violated to Constitution to begin with and initiated the Civil War.

 

[dogtowner]

I see zero support for the idea that Lincoln was influenced by Marx or Engels. I think he just wanted to keep the union together and did not care about the costs.

he HAD to keep the union together or lose 75% of the tarrif income (the main source bacj then). and he did not think it would last very long. made the same mistake the english did underestimating the rabble down south.

 

[BigRob]

If he was truly interested in "just" keeping the Union together, he would not have violated to Constitution to begin with and initiated the Civil War.

He did not initiate the Civil War. The South did when they started a rebellion.

 

[dogtowner]

He did not initiate the Civil War. The South did when they started a rebellion.

a rebellion ? i was under the imoression they just ceceded. lincoln hsd to provoke by sending needless reinforcement to Sumpter while pretending to negotiate disposition of the assets there.

 

[BigRob]

a rebellion ? i was under the imoression they just ceceded. lincoln hsd to provoke by sending needless reinforcement to Sumpter while pretending to negotiate disposition of the assets there.

Leaving the union is a rebellion against the Union.

 

[dogtowner]

Leaving the union is a rebellion against the Union.

i beg to differ. there us nothing to prevent leaving the union. rhere is wordind that makes dissolysion acceprable when it no longer working for a state or states. the south had no interest in occupying the north.

the north could not survive without the south and the political winds were not favoring the ehigs/republicans (lincoln won with no southern electorial votes). i realize linciln thought he ha no choice but to conquor the south to change the paradigm but he had no right.

 

[Gipper]

Leaving the union is a rebellion against the Union.

No...leaving the Union is not a rebellion it is a right of the sovereign states. The Constitution allowed for secession, of course, until the tyrant Lincoln ended that right by killing 800k Americans and destroying a good portion of the nation. Was it worth it?

And many historians have proven that Lincoln provoked the firing on Fort Sumter. And by the way, not one person died in the firing. Lincoln used it to mobilize troops to subjugate the seceding states (a common tactic used by several other presidents to push the nation to war), and hence the War of Northern Aggression was on.

 

[dogtowner]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed bytheir Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness."

from DofI

pretty clearly describes the point the southern states found themselves in.

 

[Texas_tea]

Excellent points both dogtowner and Gipper .....

However, good luck explaining those facts to a low information liberal!

I have not the energy to do so!

 

[Cruella]

So if the Southern States would want to seced now, what do you think would happen?

 

[dogtowner]

So if the Southern States would want to seced now, what do you think would happen?

considering BO thinks himself lincolnII, he would probably nuke atlanta

 

[TheJPRD]

I may or may not have commented on this issue here at HOP before. If so, forgive my repetitiveness. The US Civil War could have easily been avoided, as well as the 600,000-plus deaths that occured as a result.

It was almost universally accepted at the time of the US Civil War, that a US State had a right to leave the Union should it wish to do so. Shortly after the first 7 southern States seceded, the Confederate government sent a peace committee to Washington, DC, to establish peaceful and cordial relations with the USA. The Confederate government asked only that US troops abandon those military forts that were located within the Confederate States. The US Federal government delayed any final response for some time. Meanwhile, the Confederates tried to peacefully negotiate a withdrawal of Union forces from Fort Sumter. Union troops there were running low on provisions, and the Union commander indicated that he'd evacuate soon because of that need. The Confederates waited while their peace committee spoke with Union representatives in Washington. The US finally responded that supplies were being sent to Fort Sumter, and that they'd resupply the Fort peacefully..... or forcibly if necessary. Unless the South allowed "foreign" forts and troops to remain in the seceded States, they had no choice but to resist the resupply by force. Lincoln knew full well that the North could not resupply Fort Sumter if the South forcibly refused to allow that resupply. Lincoln knew that the South would have to either submit to "foreign" troops on southern lands, or would have to fire the first shots of the Civil War.

Arguments can be made that saving the Union was a valid reason for the North to fight the Civil War. Argument can be made that the near-term elimination of slavery was a valid reason for the North to fight the Civil War. However, the North violated the Constitution when it refused to allow the South to secede peacefully, and return those US forts to the applicable southern States in which they were located.

 

[Gipper]

So if the Southern States would want to seced now, what do you think would happen?

Lots of blood in the streets. The leftists, statists, and Neocons would never allow it peacefully.

Some have predicted that the USA is destined for dissolution (because of the many detrimental affects of liberalism) and likely to break up into many parts...maybe sooner rather than later...the way things are going.

 

[Gipper]

Excellent points both dogtowner and Gipper .....

However, good luck explaining those facts to a low information liberal!

I have not the energy to do so!

It is not only low information liberals who believe the Lincoln Myth. Many very informed Americans and many on the right, believe it.

The Lincoln Myth is a perfect example of how the state brainwashes the people. We were all taught in the government schools of the greatest of Lincoln. It was all a big lie...like so many other things taught in our schools.

 

[Dr.Who]

Leaving the union is a rebellion against the Union.

There should be a means to a peaceful departure. Our founding docs say that the people have the right to dissolve the bonds of government, we should not have to resort to war. I would argue that Lincoln should not have stopped them but continued to try to keep the union together without coercion.