Obama warns auto companies.

[Pidgey]

For a basic map on where our oil imports come from, scroll down about 3/4ths:

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

 

[Pidgey]

Since you're having such a difficult time with the concept of "demand destruction", try this one, it's pretty short:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/12093

...and then follow it with this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123025114273834377.html?mod=todays_us_nonsub_page_one

 

[Pidgey]

Sorry Pidgey... I'm no economist. Please explain what I'm looking at here:

Is this graph supporting the statement I made or what?

And to add more information to your questions about printing money, read this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20081229-704410.html

This is an example of "Quantitative Easing" and you can read about that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

By the way, in this case it's an extremely desperate measure intended to stem the tide of deflation. Runaway inflation or Hyperinflation is the big risk.

You never replied to the other posts that I tried to answer you on.

 

[Andy]

You're missing some the lead-lag dynamics.

With respect to "affordable" alternative energy, EROEI is still going to get you. If the cost of said transportation is a lot higher, then Joe the Plumber's not going to be able to afford it. No place is more drilled than the US. We've got about a half million producing wells making around over five million barrels of oil per day for an average of 10 barrels per day per well. And we still import almost 70% of our oil. There's no way in the world we could even come close to making up that difference. If our suppliers keep falling out of the export business for whatever reason, then the ramifications for us still exist.

Affordable is a relative term. What is affordable here, is costly in other countries. The vast majority of the planet can't afford a car, but yet in America, to have one is a given.

We might be the most drilled area, and yet our own US Geological Survey indicated there are trillions of un-tapped un-discovered resources of oil just in the lower 48 states, not including the known, but un-tapped billions on billions off our shores.

The thing that you don't seem to be appreciating is how an exponentially falling EROEI affects both the volume and price of the net energy delivered to market, as well as how that feeds back to affect the economy as a whole. Another dynamic is the inherent process swings that are the natural consequence of supply-demand imbalances. You might try taking a little bit of time to study queueing theory and how things go to h*ll in a handbasket when serving capacity is overwhelmed by demand. Well, look around you buddy, because we're in the handbasket.

This still ignores that as oil increases in price, other alternatives will become more competitive and rise to fill those gaps.

One quick example. There was a refinery that turned farm waste into crude oil. This refinery had to make roughly $80 per barrel in order to survive. Now of course, since oil is now under $40 a barrel, it isn't doing so well. But as crude oil prices rise, assuming they will eventually, then alternative sources of fuel will become competitive to replace them.

Oh yes, hell in a hand basket. Right. Well my company is having a record years. We have outsold nearly all our competitors. This last year, was one of the best years I've ever had. I'm earning more money than ever before, and things are looking pretty good.

So, I don't know who's in the basket, but it sure isn't me.

 

[Pidgey]

Me, too. I'm in oil and gas. Most folks aren't.

It occurs to me that some math and editorial to illustrate the point is in order. It's also a bad time (Holidays and Honeydoos out the whazoo). However, I will eventually get around to it and then we can get Mr. Shaman and Numinus to look it over for a blessing/cursing.

 

[Andy]

Since you're having such a difficult time with the concept of "demand destruction", try this one, it's pretty short:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/12093

...and then follow it with this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123025114273834377.html?mod=todays_us_nonsub_page_one

I'm not having a difficult time with it at all. I just disagree with the claims. First, they claim that oil production will have dramatic drops. Has that been true? Can you show me one country with "dramatic drops" excluding external reasons like war?

The second, and more obvious problem is the claim we have to know in advance when peak oil hits. That's not remotely true. How quickly did people switch to more fuel efficient cars, or alternative fuel cars? How fast did LPG, or LNG cars? Even where I live, I saw electric golf carts available for rent. The technology for replacing gasoline powered cars exists. It is simply a matter of when the price makes the limitations of non-gas cars worth the savings.

Even in US history, there were clear transitions from one energy form to another. None of them caused the economic chaos claimed here. We started with wood, and moved to coal. After coal we moved to oil. From oil, we've moved to natural gas (home heating and electrical generation). All of these were economic choices. As the cost and limits rose for one form, another form was discovered and accepted.

Was every transition simple smooth and easy? No, not really. But there was no universal hell in a hand basket either. The only difference between now and then is, we have dozens of people running around yelling the sky is falling.

 

[top gun]

GenSeneca;79689]Spoken like a true partisan hack Democrat cheerleader...

And spoken back like a true crybaby looser.

Let me get this straight... You claim, despite FactCheck.org stating otherwise, that Democrats have ZERO culpability in the financial meltdown?

Never said that. I simply document what the Republicans did while they had total 100% control for six long years.

And as for Alan Greenspan... He was also responsible for the meltdown, so its no surprise that he would try to shift blame from himself by blaming republican policy. Doing so gives him cover from partisan hacks like yourself and the Democrat party, who are all very eager to shift blame. Greenspan has outed himself as a partisan hack by trying to excuse himself, and the Clinton administration, from any culpability in the financial meltdown.

I watched his testimony. Greenspan is a man that holds a lot of pride in whatever he does. And he's a Republican himself. It was not easy for him to say what he said about the failed Republican economic plan.

But I'll say this for him. He didn't get up there and dance around... give the Bush two step bob & weave. He told the truth. I can respect him for that.

No matter how much you wish it weren't true, both parties worked together to bring us the meltdown... both pulling in the wrong direction to satisfy their special interests for political gain. Absolving Democrats of all responsibility will only make the problems worse.

I think President-elect Obama understands exactly where we are. He has assembled a very good team. Outside of never wanting anyone to forget that we had just terrible economies under both Bush #41 & #43 just so we don't go back down that road again my real hope is we get a little working together. God knows we need it!

 

[top gun]

Andy;79690]Yeah sure you don't. I don't remember any posts by you condemning John Glen, or the other yahoos.

Andy I'm against anybody that does something wrong. But I'm here to balance out your crazy sh1t. You'd have us believe Bush economics was great and the Pubbies never deregulated anything or that deregulation helped prevent this economic crisis.

Andy the Republicans are not what you want them to be and the Democrats you hate.

Here's the thing. The Republicans had to move to the center because they blew their wad going too far Right. Look at all the new voters & fresh enthusiasm Ron Paul got for Christ sake. If you cannot take the "center moderates" you cannot win... ever!

You can play hater on the Democrats all day long but the fact is they're the winners. And they're the winners for a reason... because the Republicans simply did a bad job.

Democrats will now lead in both Houses and hold the Executive. I believe President Obama will take populist, centrist positions much like President Clinton did and things will get rolling again.

My hope is that in the next 8 years President Obama gets the opportunity to appoint several Supreme Court Justices so Women's rights and Civil Liberties really stand strong and we work at bringing America together.

Let's work together and give this new administration a chance. We tried it the other way and we are where we are. Sometimes you have to change.

 

[top gun]

You have far more faith in government than I have. I hope you're right, but I doubt it.

Hey I know it's easy to think nobody can do a good job. But you don't have to think back that long to remember some pretty darn good times.

Just look at the 8 straight years under the Clinton administration and then take out the whole "he had an affair thing".

You take all that personal hype and distraction away and anybody being honest knows those were a damn good 8 years!

Not saying all Clinton's decisions were perfect. NAFTA for one didn't end up going the way it was planned but at least that administration's actions were well intended and they kept focused on the economy... remember the placard on Clinton's desk "IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!".

And with Clinton you knew the regular working guy & gal and the elderly had a place with him.

We'll never be perfect but we can't become so jaded that we don't care or don't try. Give President Obama a chance and see what he can do.

 

[Andy]

Andy I'm against anybody that does something wrong. But I'm here to balance out your crazy sh1t. You'd have us believe Bush economics was great and the Pubbies never deregulated anything or that deregulation helped prevent this economic crisis.

I don't believe you. Some of the things you have said, there are no possible way you really it. If you do, then you don't care much about truth.

Andy the Republicans are not what you want them to be and the Democrats you hate.

I don't hate democrats. Nor are the republicans what I want them to be. I oppose ideology more than anything. I'm not as concerned as much about which party did what. I don't pick one or two examples and try and blame the entire party.

Here's the thing. The Republicans had to move to the center because they blew their wad going too far Right. Look at all the new voters & fresh enthusiasm Ron Paul got for Christ sake. If you cannot take the "center moderates" you cannot win... ever!

What are you talking about? McCain was as "centrist" as you can get. He didn't have a chance. I called the election for McCain the day he won the primary because he was a centrist. Look at all the centrist republicans of the past, did they win? Bush Sr lost after raising taxes. Bob Dole was centrist, and didn't have a chance.

The only time Republicans win is when they are far-right, and openly so. The only time the McCain campaign had any real spark was when Palin came on board, and only because she wasn't centrist. Even Ann Coulter is quoted as saying "Finely we have a reason to vote for McCain that isn't Obama".

If anything the Ron Paul votes should prove, it's that moving left, doesn't increase votes, in fact it loses them. Ron Paul got votes because he was a conservative when the Republican party wasn't.

You can play hater on the Democrats all day long but the fact is they're the winners. And they're the winners for a reason... because the Republicans simply did a bad job.

I don't "hate" democrats. I don't "hate" anyone. Even the few democrats I know, I am good friends with. The idea that just because I'm completely opposed to wrong and false ideologies, means I hate them, is stupid.

I am not prejudice about ideology, like you are about income and choice of automobiles.

Democrats will now lead in both Houses and hold the Executive. I believe President Obama will take populist, centrist positions much like President Clinton did and things will get rolling again.

Populist is stupid. If he takes that position, then both those that follow him, and he himself, are pretty dumb. The idea of populism is that it's up to government to make our lives happen. There are people that have lived in the ghettos their whole lives based on the idea that government should fix everything.

My hope is that in the next 8 years President Obama gets the opportunity to appoint several Supreme Court Justices so Women's rights and Civil Liberties really stand strong and we work at bringing America together.

Name the 'rights'?

Let's work together and give this new administration a chance. We tried it the other way and we are where we are. Sometimes you have to change.

Well since I'm against most everything you are for, I'll likely be working against you. Sorry. We've already seen the incompetence of Obama "threatening" the auto industry. I have yet to see he's much brighter than that. Have you inflated your tires lately?

 

[GenSeneca]

You never replied to the other posts that I tried to answer you on.

I asked a question... you gave a very detailed answer, thank you.

Top Gun,

What role did the Democrats play in the economic meltdown? (CRA - Mark to Market - Fannie, Freddie etc.)

Who were the Democrat players in the meltdown? (Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters etc)

Let's work together and give this new administration a chance.

Your idea of "working together" is people like me bending over and taking it up the butt from people like yourself.

 

[top gun]

Andy;79822]I don't believe you. Some of the things you have said, there are no possible way you really it. If you do, then you don't care much about truth.

I totally care about the truth. That's why I've spent so much time busting out the Conservatives for their abuses of power and out & out lies. But I fully realize there will always be a bad apple here and there on either side.

I don't hate democrats. Nor are the republicans what I want them to be. I oppose ideology more than anything. I'm not as concerned as much about which party did what. I don't pick one or two examples and try and blame the entire party.

Dude I think it's pretty disingenuous to say your not an ultra Conservative smear merchant. I'm not sure I've ever heard you say anything approaching moderate or close to the middle.

You're middle of the road is more like the guy that said:

You know everybody complains about Hitler. But at least with Hitler the trains ran on time!

What are you talking about? McCain was as "centrist" as you can get. He didn't have a chance. I called the election for McCain the day he won the primary because he was a centrist. Look at all the centrist republicans of the past, did they win? Bush Sr lost after raising taxes. Bob Dole was centrist, and didn't have a chance.

The McCain of 2000 was a centrist. Since then preparing to run in 08 he spent all his time cozying up Falwell types and the Far Right. Then he topped that off with picking old "speaking in tongues" Miss Wasilla! Come on... be serious.

The only time Republicans win is when they are far-right, and openly so. The only time the McCain campaign had any real spark was when Palin came on board, and only because she wasn't centrist. Even Ann Coulter is quoted as saying "Finely we have a reason to vote for McCain that isn't Obama".

OMG did you not follow this election at all! Yes Caribou Barbie gave the Radical Right a boost... big deal they were never going to vote for the Democrat anyway!

How many nights in a row does the statement on the nightly news and all the polling clearly showing Palin was a HUGE DRAG ON THE TICKET with Independent and moderate voters before you consider it as a problem?

If anything the Ron Paul votes should prove, it's that moving left, doesn't increase votes, in fact it loses them. Ron Paul got votes because he was a conservative when the Republican party wasn't.

Ron Paul wanted out of Iraq immediately that's what the interest was. There were Conservatives that wanted out of Iraq and saw the whole big lie & Nation Building factor there. I'll grant you Paul was more Conservative in some other ways... but then he couldn't ever win the middle either.

I don't "hate" democrats. I don't "hate" anyone. Even the few democrats I know, I am good friends with. The idea that just because I'm completely opposed to wrong and false ideologies, means I hate them, is stupid.

Well that's good I'm glad you don't hate them. Maybe someday you'll find some common ground. I myself have over the years went from Biker far Right to Independent to Progressive (moderate Liberal). I think at the end of the day people tend to end up where they see fairness and think the most good is being done. At least that's what I feel I've done.

I am not prejudice about ideology, like you are about income and choice of automobiles.

Hey you can't tag me with that! You opened that can of worms or I'd never been able to point out the obvious.

It's never been about any prejudice with me about your 1982 Buick or your thousand dollar a year job. I'm for everybody that tries.

Where we feel apart was when you raved about how great an 82 Buick was compared to modern automobiles when I was in the car business a good part of my life and knew better... and when you kept proclaimed deep economic insight from behind a 13K job...

I mean come on Welfare including food stamps and a medical card is like what 8K? I'm just listening to what you're telling me. Can't blame me for that.

Populist is stupid. If he takes that position, then both those that follow him, and he himself, are pretty dumb. The idea of populism is that it's up to government to make our lives happen. There are people that have lived in the ghettos their whole lives based on the idea that government should fix everything.

Well I think centrist and moderate and rational and populist will be very refreshing and good for the country after the Bush/Cheney Gestapo.

Name the 'rights'?

Well Roe will be protected and further established. I also look for the time period for going after an employer who discriminates by paying a woman less for doing the exact same job as a man will be moved back up to a reasonable amount of time... not just the few short months it's recently been reduced to.

I also look for a lot of our Civil Liberties that have been eroded under Bush to be reinstated in one way or another. The FISA Court will be revised and operated... things like that.

Well since I'm against most everything you are for, I'll likely be working against you. Sorry. We've already seen the incompetence of Obama "threatening" the auto industry. I have yet to see he's much brighter than that. Have you inflated your tires lately?

At least he can spell TIRES!

Bush... well that would definitely be hit or miss for him! America is going to be so happy on January the 20th to finally sweep out what we've had... watch and see...

and hey... unless you're bringing cheese try not to whine...

 

[Segep]

At least he can spell TIRES!

Bush... well that would definitely be hit or miss for him! America is going to be so happy on January the 20th to finally sweep out what we've had... watch and see...

and hey... unless you're bringing cheese try not to whine...

Personally, I'm throwing an End of an Error party!

 

[XCALIDEM]

​

I had to laugh at this. People have asked why I think Obama is an idiot. My favorite answer is the whole national energy policy of "inflate your tires". But there are dozens of other ones, and here's just yet another example of idiocy that is Obama.

Here we have three major auto manufactures which are facing bankruptcy, and Obama's action is to... basically... threaten them! Why yes! Why didn't I come up with this before! We should just THREATEN them into profitability! It's oh so clear now! We can just intimidate them back into the budgetary black!

"Oh, so you are going broke are you? So you're running out cash huh? Well I'm warning you, darn it!! You had better seize the opportunity... or else!!!"

or else... what?

"Well... um... or else you'll go bankrupt... yeah..."

Oh yes, I can see it will be a fun 4 years of unending stupidity. He's not even in office, and I already have a list of Bailout-Barack Overspend-Obama quotes.

Obama is in cahoots with the CFL and CIO, who paid for his presidency.

 

[top gun]

GenSeneca;79894]

Top Gun,

What role did the Democrats play in the economic meltdown? (CRA - Mark to Market - Fannie, Freddie etc.)

Who were the Democrat players in the meltdown? (Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters etc)

The Democrats roll in the meltdown was far far less than the Republicans. There's always some blurring of the lines in politics so the Democrats of course could have complained more. But you have to look at the circumstances at the time. Bush & the Republicans had EVERYTHING locked up vote wise. There is such a thing as just letting a group implode. That's what finally happened.

I stand on two basic differences with you on this subject and it's not on... were there any Democrats that ever spoke highly of Fannie and Freddie, because of course there were. Right along with many Republicans.

My points are these:

A) A mere 12% of all that bad paper was for low income mortgages. So to say that was the main problem is simply a lie.

B) The Republican deregulation machine hurt America and took away many different types of needed safeguards and they did this to help their friends and contributors in big business.

C) When you spend almost your whole time in office building up $12 BILLION DOLLAR PER MONTH deficits on Nation Building... it eventually catches up with you.

Let's work together and give this new administration a chance.

Your idea of "working together" is people like me bending over and taking it up the butt from people like yourself.

First, you hurt your case when you talk about any "butt play"... Foley, Craig, Haggard and the like all over the media hurt you there.

Secondly... we can work together. Our country needs us to right now. We're in a whole lot of trouble that's been built up over the last few years. Let's try to get some good things done and see if that doesn't help.