Obama wants to legitimize the 20 million illegal aliens - do you agree?

[numinus]

Why didn't I think of that. Americans are fat, therefore illegals should be given amnesty. Here I thought your insanity responses were limited to economic issues.

Don't worry yourself too much. I hold your college teachers responsible for your sorry state of ignorance -- if you even set foot on a college.

 

[PLC1]

Securing the border would not solve gang-related crimes.

But it would keep more gangs from moving in, or at least make it harder for them to do so.

But that how it works in a capitalist society. There is competition not only in the prices of goods but also in the prices of labor.

And what happens if a business can't compete, hmmm? It dies, doesn't it?

Sure, that's what we want. Let the American worker compete with workers from third world countries. That's a great formula for making us another third world country. What I said has nothing to do with businesses competing. It has to do with illegal aliens driving down wages.

Do you really think we should just open the borders and quit even pretending to try to keep out the illegals? Should we just stand back while the entire third world pours across, bringing with them not just desirable immigrants, but also drug dealers, gang members, diseases, and potential terrorists? Should we just quit even trying to be a sovereign nation? You seem to be arguing for the end of the United States of America as we know it, to just let it blend into an amorphous zone in which anyone can come and go from anywhere. Once again, you have taken an untenable position.

 

[Andy]

Don't worry yourself too much. I hold your college teachers responsible for your sorry state of ignorance -- if you even set foot on a college.

You are coward. Anyone who runs to racism to hide the lack of intelligence on a topic is just that... a coward.

 

[jb_1430]

Have you looked at the composition of students in technical courses like the sciences and engineering? When was the last time you saw a programmer with a degree in computer programming or a factory supervisor with a degree in mech engg? Are you even aware that american hs students are far inferior to those of itty-bitty singapore?

??? Yes. Within the last few days. Singapore outperforms the students of every other country in the world. None of the developed countries, including the US are "far inferior" to Singapore. And being a nation the size of a big city in America, or "itty bitty" is probably an advantage when it comes to maintaining educational excellence.
You trying to make a point or you just got a bug up your ass for Americans for some reason. What country are you in?

 

[jb_1430]

Don't worry yourself too much. I hold your college teachers responsible for your sorry state of ignorance -- if you even set foot on a college.

Whats your problem? What hell hole country do you reside in? Do I detect an Islamic attitude?

 

[Andy]

Disturbed.

I was wondering if I should jump in... too late now.

What bothers me most about this entire thread is... why do we not learn from the past? Why is this even coming up as an issue? Schools should just eliminate history as a topic since we do not learn anything from it.

It's like certain economic systems that have failed consistently in history, yet we have people supporting them.

Did we not learn from the amnesty before? Did it work? No? Oh wait... let's try it again! Insanity: Trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

"But we just need to secure the boarder and then it will work"
First, do you really think there is any way to completely secure the boarder?
Second, it is Federal law NOW... at this very moment to have a fence along our boarder, yet there isn't. So given the fact it's law that there must be, yet there isn't... do you want to try it again? Why should we trust them THIS time?

Solution: Crack down on businesses that hire Illegals.
Problem: How do we enforce this? Have government raids on business? We cry about the patriot act, yet sneak and peak is exactly how this would have to work. More paper work that can be forged? I know of a group of Mexicans operating a car repair business right where I live. When an illegal family member needs a job, you think they won't hire them?

Solution: Make it legal! Because their just looking for a better life...
Problem: How many other crimes should we make legal because 'they are just looking for a better life'? Do I have to explain how the idea of 'laws are broken, so remove them' is a bad concept?

Oddly, my experience is that even immigrants do not like amnesty. Now granted, various groups have different views. But I know many, and just out of the group I know, they don't want it. Because it makes a mockery of all the work they did to come here legally. My closest personal friend being one of them.

Nadia is from Somalian. She came to the US an 18 year old woman, with her father in Kenya, and her mother already passed away. With only a brother in Seattle, and a sister where I live in Ohio, she was otherwise on her own.

She worked through getting a green card, got a job, worked at Fedex and a number of other jobs. She spent months going to classes, and last year got her citizenship. She paid for it herself.

After the years she spent, working, going through the legal red tape of citizenship, and obeying all the laws... for others who did none of that, and be handed citizenship on a sliver platter for breaking all the laws she obeyed... she's not for it. I'm not either.

My simple solution: Do what is already law... secure the board as best we can. If we do not do what is already law, how is adding more laws going to help?

Start deporting people as quickly as possible. There is a quick simple place to start this... jail/prison. With 25% of CA's prisons full of illegals who have broken even more laws than just coming here illegally, that alone is an easy place to rid ourselves of unwanted law breaking illegal immigrants. The rest we should deal with as they come up.

There is one reason people come to the US illegally rather than legally... because it works. And amnesty is proof of that. By offering amnesty, we will legitimize the illegal action they have taken, inviting more illegal actions. The solution is to make it not work.

By deporting people, they will stop coming because it will not work. Family members spend lots of money to get illegals into the country every year. If we deport them, that will stop because it's a waste of money. Family members will divert that money to getting people in legally, just as Nadia received money to get her pass in Somalia, then once here worked toward legal citizenship.

Another thing we should do, is check citizenship before litigation. It's sickening that illegals can come to the US and sue US citizens. Fill our courts with law suites, and we pay for it. Ridiculous.

 

[jb_1430]

But that how it works in a capitalist society. There is competition not only in the prices of goods but also in the prices of labor.

And what happens if a business can't compete, hmmm? It dies, doesn't it?

Capitalism doesnt require open borders and unlimited immigration. In a capitalist society, if you close the borders and restrict the supply of labor, its price goes up.

And thats OK if some labor intensive business cant compete with the international competition. We have all those smart people in the East who like
actually making things with their own hands for a living.

 

[Libsmasher]

Or, as is more likely, until the job takes a hop overseas, unless it's a service-industry job. Our economy really doesn't need any more of those.

Nonsense - the jobs they do won't "takes a hop overseas".

Would hotel work "take a hop overseas"? No.
Would restaurant work "take a hop overseas"? No.
Would farm work "take a hop overseas"? No.
Would being a nanny for Hollywierd types "take a hop overseas"? No.
Would working in a chicken processing plant "take a hop overseas"? No.
Would construction work "take a hop overseas"? No.

2. It is not a (solely) liberal ploy. The most prominent historical example I can think of comes from the Antebellum South - notably, that slavery was a necessity because no white man would ever stoop to performing the sorts of labors blacks performed. Those were not liberals making those statements.

Nonsense - white men did all kinds of agriculture work outside the slavery south, and did do it in the south after slavery was abolished, just like they will do it after the illegals are sent home, but with higher wages, or the agriculture work they did will be automated.

 

[Libsmasher]

Coward is the last thing I would describe myself in a debate.

Playing the illegal alien race card in lieu of actually debating the issues is cowardly.

 

[Libsmasher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
The BS is just flowing from you. The illegal aliens are DRAINS on the economy. They go to the emergency rooms for regular health care, and don't pay. Their costs are shifted to others, and are part of what is driving up health care costs. The ones who come here and have anchor babies immediately are eligible, and cash in, on section 8 housing, food stamps, free legal aid, discounts at universities not available to american citizens, medicaid - on and on and on.

LOL. Sounds like your regular american to me. Except maybe university.

Too gutless/stupid to debate that issue? OK!

Have you looked at the composition of students in technical courses like the sciences and engineering? When was the last time you saw a programmer with a degree in computer programming or a factory supervisor with a degree in mech engg? Are you even aware that american hs students are far inferior to those of itty-bitty singapore?

Uh, what has that got to do with what I was talking about? Forgot to take your attention defict pills?

School usually gets in the way of sports and showbiz superstardom.

What the devil are you mumbling about? Are you smoking grass??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
They don't bear the slightest resemblance to the euro immigrants. Those immigrants came legally, were screened, were allowed in on a measured basis, assimilated quickly, provided needed skills, and wanted nothing more than to become an American, not just a "u.s. citizen.".

Really!?

Tell me -- did they ask permission from the native americans when they landed in the continent?

Oh, the jamestown settlers didn't have passports! That's it??? That's all you can come up with in a debate about illegal aliens in 2008?? I think I preferred your "coward" mode to your incoherent rambling mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
The illegal aliens came here ILLEGALLY in an uncontrolled wave of millions of people, are NOT providing needed skills, don't speak english and most never will, are here to exploit the system, and would laugh at the idea that they would become Americans. There are so many that they are creating a sub-nation in the southwest.

There is an infallible way to determine the lie in this statement. An illegal immigrant couldn't possibly remain in the country without a job to support them.

And your point would be .......... what??? Like saying a bank robber can't suceed without a getaway car.

 

[numinus]

But it would keep more gangs from moving in, or at least make it harder for them to do so.

Gangs do not 'move in'. They develop within a particular setting.

Sure, that's what we want. Let the American worker compete with workers from third world countries. That's a great formula for making us another third world country. What I said has nothing to do with businesses competing. It has to do with illegal aliens driving down wages.

The thing about competition is that it isn't supposed to be regulated by the government. Laissez faire and all. And the people who benefit the most are the american businesses who employ cheap labor.

Do you really think we should just open the borders and quit even pretending to try to keep out the illegals? Should we just stand back while the entire third world pours across, bringing with them not just desirable immigrants, but also drug dealers, gang members, diseases, and potential terrorists? Should we just quit even trying to be a sovereign nation? You seem to be arguing for the end of the United States of America as we know it, to just let it blend into an amorphous zone in which anyone can come and go from anywhere. Once again, you have taken an untenable position.

Of course not.

I am talking about the illegals already in the country and doing productive work. As long as american businesses require cheap labor, they are going to get cheap labor, legal or illegal. Besides, the prices of basic commodities are dependent on them being made cheap. Otherwise, you would have to pay more for it -- a lot more.

 

[numinus]

You are coward. Anyone who runs to racism to hide the lack of intelligence on a topic is just that... a coward.

And I have mentioned race in this thread, when?

 

[numinus]

Whats your problem? What hell hole country do you reside in? Do I detect an Islamic attitude?

LOL.

My problem, not that it is any of your concern, is with the poster I was responding to.

And what you detect is a distinctly CATHOLIC attitude.

 

[vyo476]

Would hotel work "take a hop overseas"? No.

Hospitality is more or less a service-industry offshoot.

Would restaurant work "take a hop overseas"? No.

Service-industry.

Would farm work "take a hop overseas"? No.

Could very well. If domestic agriculture becomes less profitable than foreign agriculture, domestic agriculture could easily go out of business.

Would being a nanny for Hollywierd types "take a hop overseas"? No.

Service-industry.

Would working in a chicken processing plant "take a hop overseas"? No.

Uh...yes. Food processing is much easier to perform overseas (cheaper labor and fewer health codes/restrictions), and is more feasible now with better refrigeration technologies.

Would construction work "take a hop overseas"? No.

Congratulations, you have one pertinent example.

Nonsense - white men did all kinds of agriculture work outside the slavery south, and did do it in the south after slavery was abolished,

Irregardless of the reality, the argument was that white men wouldn't do the same work black men performed on the plantations of the South. The reality is and always will be that people will do what they have to in order to survive, which makes the "work (certain group) won't do) argument a universal fallacy. A universal fallacy that you brought into the conversation, by the way.

 

[numinus]

Capitalism doesnt require open borders and unlimited immigration. In a capitalist society, if you close the borders and restrict the supply of labor, its price goes up.

It requires cost to be cheap, since businesses are in competition with one another. And it will obtain cheap raw materials or labor by whatever means as a matter of survival.

And thats OK if some labor intensive business cant compete with the international competition. We have all those smart people in the East who like
actually making things with their own hands for a living.

I was talking about goods and services for domestic consumption. The us is already incapable of competing internationally in most industries.