Obama expected to sign wilderness bill

Well it has certainly had some very negative impacts. Alaska recently marked the 20 year anniversary of the Exxon Valdez tragedy. Shortly afterwards, Bush Sr. put quite a bit of area that was critical to commercial fisheries habitat off limits of offshore development, along with areas that are ice bound for most of the year. GWB overturned these regulations and allowed lease sales in these areas. While I support opening ANWR, I think off shore oil and gas in some of these places is idiotic.
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Now the sad notion to this whole episode is that the Bush Administration through his industry lackies wanted to remove the tug boat safe guards put in place after this tragedy, to prevent it ever happening again.

I could bring you to hundreds of miles of coastline in Prince William Sound where there is still considerable oil residue left over from this spill.

at least exxon got out of paying most of what it was told to pay...if it has even paid a dime....
 
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at least exxon got out of paying most of what it was told to pay...if it has even paid a dime....

Not sure what you are basing that off of, but Exxon actually paid 1.28 billion dollars to clean it up. I do not live in Alaska, however I have vacationed their, and was amazed that you almost can't tell anything happened. Gary Shigenaka head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency says allowing nature to clean up the rest on it's own is better for the enviroment.

http://www.mindfully.org/Water/Valdez-Cleanup-Lessons22nov02.htm

Some examples of what Exxon did to make up for it's mistake: Each Sea Otter saved would cost Exxon forty thousand dollars after feeding them lobster and crayfish that was flown in every day. The boats used in the cleanup were chartered for as much as eight thousand dollars a day. Fishermen were given seventy-five million dollars to make up for lost fishing revenues. Exxon provided villages along shorelines with food because hunting and fishing had been interrupted. The cost of this cleanup was equivalent to one fifth of Exxon's revenue for the year. (Information taken from Exxon's financial break down of the clean up.)

Not only did Exxon clean up their mess, but they have put billions of dollars into making sure that this doesn't happen again. It's been a little over 20 years and not another incident. You learn from your mistakes!

Bunz, I talked with probably 20-30 people during my two weeks in Alaska, and not a one mentioned ongoing problems. In fact many of them praised Exxon for what they did with the clean up and others sited that nature will finish up the clean up better than us.
 
Not sure what you are basing that off of,
I presume PFOS is talking about the original $5billion punitive settlement that the USSC gutted last summer.
but Exxon actually paid 1.28 billion dollars to clean it up.
Are we supposed to feel bad about this? Is this supposed to be some consolation for what happened? I kinda equate this someone driving drunk and killing a human, then making sure the funeral bills are paid. It means little after the fact.
I do not live in Alaska, however I have vacationed their, and was amazed that you almost can't tell anything happened.
Where and when did you actually vacation at? Was it in the area that was actually effected? Did you get a chance to get off the cruise ship to verify for yourself the amount of oil that still soils the beach just below the surface?
Gary Shigenaka head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency says allowing nature to clean up the rest on it's own is better for the enviroment.

http://www.mindfully.org/Water/Valdez-Cleanup-Lessons22nov02.htm
Well of course, because now the damage is done, and further washing of rocks doesnt do as much as when it is easy to skim. What is a more important factor in the whole scenario now, is that it is to expensive to finish the job.
Some examples of what Exxon did to make up for it's mistake: Each Sea Otter saved would cost Exxon forty thousand dollars after feeding them lobster and crayfish that was flown in every day.
Yeah great, they saved 37 sea otters, they killed at least 3,000. And the species has not recovered to date.
The boats used in the cleanup were chartered for as much as eight thousand dollars a day.
Yeah, and most werent paid that much, the fisherman who watched thier livelihood vanish before thier eyes, were the first responders and had to make up the lost revenue, and do whatever they could to help the situation.
Fishermen were given seventy-five million dollars to make up for lost fishing revenues.
To cover for the immediate damages that occurred. The herring fishery has never recovered, nor has the marine mammal activities. Salmon is generally doing alright for now, but the run has never been as strong as the days before the spill.
Exxon provided villages along shorelines with food because hunting and fishing had been interrupted. The cost of this cleanup was equivalent to one fifth of Exxon's revenue for the year. (Information taken from Exxon's financial break down of the clean up.)
Woopteedoo! I am so far very unimpressed with your defense of Exxon. One fifth of thier revenue, great considering that a few thousand fisherman never cast a net the day after Exxon Valdez happened. One fifth of revenue for a year, for a major corporation means squat to me, when a generation of permit holders were ruined, not 1/5 for a year, but %100 for 20 years now.
Not only did Exxon clean up their mess, but they have put billions of dollars into making sure that this doesn't happen again. It's been a little over 20 years and not another incident. You learn from your mistakes!
Not sure they really learned from thier mistakes, because less than a year ago they wanted to remove the escort tug systems that were put in place back in 89 after the spill. As for not another incident happening? Well Ill grant you that Exxon hasnt had a drunken skipper leave an utterly unqualified cabin boy in charge to run a massive ship onto a charted reef. Yes you are right that hasnt happened. But there have been a few other land based oil spills in Alaska, mostly from lack of maintenance on feeder pipelines.
Bunz, I talked with probably 20-30 people during my two weeks in Alaska, and not a one mentioned ongoing problems.
Oh yeah? Are you sure they were Alaskans? Where abouts in Alaska was this? What did you ask them?
In fact many of them praised Exxon for what they did with the clean up and others sited that nature will finish up the clean up better than us.
Praised Exxon? Now, I dont claim to know everyone in Alaska, there are a few places I havent been to. But I am born and raised here and I gotta tell you, I havent heard in my entire life 10 people praise exxon for thier actions, in the last 20 years. For you to find 2-3x that amount on a two week vacation, amazes me. Please do tell me in what communities I can find such an outpouring of exxon support.
 
Well fast moving, depends on many factors. But I think it is worth pointing out that it took a Democratic Senator from Alaska to get the job done this far. The GOP even when they were in control of Congress and Bush in the White House couldnt manage, they handed out the pork spending to buy a hovercraft that of course the locals fall upon to maintain, which a town of 800 is quite hard pressed to afford. But its overwith now, the Democrats delievered what the GOP couldnt in 10 years.

See the problem is, you are saying one party is better than another because one "got the job done". My problem is, it should never have been in the hands of the federal government to begin with.

They have stripped you of your own rights to your own land, and then set themselves up as the solution. And here you praise them for finely doing what should never have been in their control to do anyway.

Not exactly Andy, but the circumstances are a bit different here. There was a deal concerning a land swap, where mostly state land that nobody lives even close to, will be included into the NWR. There is also some local Native Corporation land that was included, but they are more than happy with the deal.

I'm sure they are. I'm sure AIG was happy with the bailout too, until the government screwed them over. I'm sure GM was happy with the deal until they got screwed over. I'm sure Alaskans were happy with ANWR until the government screwed them over for 10 years. I'm sure your native company will be happy with the deal until they get screwed over.

Funny how everyone is ecstatic with government control until they get screwed over.

The China reference is a stretch in my mind, but so is most of the doomsday right wing banter. As far as I am concerned, if we made it through the Bush years, we will make it through the Obama years.

Not really. The problem is, we are very short term people. We think in spans of just a few years. But that's not how socialism works. Socialism happens over a large time frame. For example, when socialists started taking over in China, in the mid-1940s, most of the economy was in private hands. By the mid-50s, there were no completely private firms, only joint public-private firms. Within 5 to 10 years of that, there were almost no public-private ventures at all.

Point being that we and communist China are on the same path. Just at different spots. They've already gone from being the worlds largest economy in the 1900-1950s, to being the smallest from 1950s to 1970s, and back to being one of the fastest growing again.

They've tried out socialism, and had 66% of their population below the poverty line, while Hong Kong was a booming bustling economy. Now they have rejected those controls on their economy, and are following capitalism.

We on the other hand, have not had the economy crash of socialism on us yet. We still think it will somehow work. Now we are following the exact pattern China used to reach it's economy depression. Hopefully we'll figure out, like they did, that socialism sucks before we have to reach the point they did.

While the issue of Federal ownership of land in Alaska has long been a touchy subject, I am hopeful that reasonable heads will prevail and that Kim Elton will have the necessary influence in the Department of Interior to get the enviromental requirements through.

Yeah, we've seen so much from the government lately that gives us good hope, eh?
 
at least exxon got out of paying most of what it was told to pay...if it has even paid a dime....

What's worse is, the clean up did more harm than good. On beaches they intentionally left alone, nature cleaned up the oil without any help, and did a far better job than the clean up crews did.

Once again, government couldn't clean up a sand box without making it worse off.
 
One of the funniest things I had seen was when the oil spill happened and the environmentalists crazy’s were running around as though the apocalypse had arrived, they found a bird, some sea bird with oil all over its feathers. They carefully got all the oil off of its feathers and nursed it back to health and they had a big video showing of the release of this wild ocean bird and as they let it go a whale snagged it up for lunch. Now I like birds so that sucked for the bird but the look on those environmentalist nut job’s faces was absolutely priceless! I wish I had the youtube of that one, I would play it on bad days just to watch their expressions.

Hey I just thought of something. That captain who was running the ship was smoking pot! See the dangers Popeye !!
 
See the problem is, you are saying one party is better than another because one "got the job done". My problem is, it should never have been in the hands of the federal government to begin with.

They have stripped you of your own rights to your own land, and then set themselves up as the solution. And here you praise them for finely doing what should never have been in their control to do anyway.
A few things here, firstly, I am an overall supporter of public lands. That access that is provided to utilize the outdoors is one of the great things about Alaska, and most of the western states. It belongs to everyone and doesnt become the private enclave of the rich or well placed, which is what you find with places like Texas. So with that caveat, there are times when the restrictions placed on development in those places are potentially short sighted in certain circumstances. Then of course when it becomes obvious that some reasonable development needs to be made, it takes an act of Congress.
I'm sure Alaskans were happy with ANWR until the government screwed them over for 10 years. I'm sure your native company will be happy with the deal until they get screwed over.
Well it isnt my Native Corp, it is a different one I am not affiliated with. But that is besides the point, because that local corp, will benefit greatly by the road being built. They own the local store, and are part owners in the local seafood processing plant. This will allow them to fly goods in and out of Cold Bay, which is the third longest runway in the state and is fully IFR equipped. So it will mean not only access to better medical facilities, but cheaper goods, and a higher profit on exported goods that dont need to be flown to Cold Bay.
 
What's worse is, the clean up did more harm than good. On beaches they intentionally left alone, nature cleaned up the oil without any help, and did a far better job than the clean up crews did.
Could you please provide some sort of evidence of this? I think we have been down this road in the past. The beaches they didnt hose down still have a considerable amount of oil, whereas the beaches they worked, still have some but not as much. Also the majority of the fruitful work came from using booms and skims.
Once again, government couldn't clean up a sand box without making it worse off.
Well firstly, it was a private company effort. But they were also the same entity that made the whole situation dramatically worse to start.
 
One of the funniest things I had seen was when the oil spill happened and the environmentalists crazy’s were running around as though the apocalypse had arrived, they found a bird, some sea bird with oil all over its feathers. They carefully got all the oil off of its feathers and nursed it back to health and they had a big video showing of the release of this wild ocean bird and as they let it go a whale snagged it up for lunch. Now I like birds so that sucked for the bird but the look on those environmentalist nut job’s faces was absolutely priceless! I wish I had the youtube of that one, I would play it on bad days just to watch their expressions.
That does sound quite amusing.
Hey I just thought of something. That captain who was running the ship was smoking pot! See the dangers Popeye !!
Not quite, he was drinking. And for the record, he was a known alcoholic, multiple DUIs, left treatment programs, but Exxon still left him in command of super takers. The simply fact alone that Exxon let someone who had a suspended driver's license in charge of this sort of vessel should have resulted in the full punitive damages awarded in 93, but Alaskans got utterly screwed over on this USSC decision.
Here is Sarah's reaction.
 
I presume PFOS is talking about the original $5billion punitive settlement that the USSC gutted last summer.

Are we supposed to feel bad about this? Is this supposed to be some consolation for what happened? I kinda equate this someone driving drunk and killing a human, then making sure the funeral bills are paid. It means little after the fact.

Where and when did you actually vacation at? Was it in the area that was actually effected? Did you get a chance to get off the cruise ship to verify for yourself the amount of oil that still soils the beach just below the surface?

Well of course, because now the damage is done, and further washing of rocks doesnt do as much as when it is easy to skim. What is a more important factor in the whole scenario now, is that it is to expensive to finish the job.
Yeah great, they saved 37 sea otters, they killed at least 3,000. And the species has not recovered to date.

Yeah, and most werent paid that much, the fisherman who watched thier livelihood vanish before thier eyes, were the first responders and had to make up the lost revenue, and do whatever they could to help the situation.

To cover for the immediate damages that occurred. The herring fishery has never recovered, nor has the marine mammal activities. Salmon is generally doing alright for now, but the run has never been as strong as the days before the spill.

Woopteedoo! I am so far very unimpressed with your defense of Exxon. One fifth of thier revenue, great considering that a few thousand fisherman never cast a net the day after Exxon Valdez happened. One fifth of revenue for a year, for a major corporation means squat to me, when a generation of permit holders were ruined, not 1/5 for a year, but %100 for 20 years now.

Not sure they really learned from thier mistakes, because less than a year ago they wanted to remove the escort tug systems that were put in place back in 89 after the spill. As for not another incident happening? Well Ill grant you that Exxon hasnt had a drunken skipper leave an utterly unqualified cabin boy in charge to run a massive ship onto a charted reef. Yes you are right that hasnt happened. But there have been a few other land based oil spills in Alaska, mostly from lack of maintenance on feeder pipelines.

Oh yeah? Are you sure they were Alaskans? Where abouts in Alaska was this? What did you ask them?

Praised Exxon? Now, I dont claim to know everyone in Alaska, there are a few places I havent been to. But I am born and raised here and I gotta tell you, I havent heard in my entire life 10 people praise exxon for thier actions, in the last 20 years. For you to find 2-3x that amount on a two week vacation, amazes me. Please do tell me in what communities I can find such an outpouring of exxon support.


I am in no way saying that you should feel sorry for EXXON for having to pay for the clean up. I'm merely saying you can't make a company a complete villain for the event either. Now as far as my vacation, this was the time line of events. We started the trip with a 5 day 4 night fishing charter. Captain Ron's Alaska Adventures it was a great time with a great crew. Of which I asked members of the crew of their opinion of the Exxon situation. (Since we were out in the Prince William Sound, it seemed fitting.) We then spent 5 days camping at different state parks in the region. Shoup Bay and Jack Bay SMP where we actually discussed it with members of the State Park service, again they applauded their clean-up efforts. We then ended our trip where it started in Anchorage. We enjoyed a great bar called Humpy's Great Alaskan Alehouse, and stayed at the Sheraton Anchorage Hotel. I have no problem working politics (as it's my job) into any conversation, and since we were from the south most people noticed our accent. So thus we got questions about our trip, and I would ask my own questions in return. We actually got the idea for the trip from watching old camping shows on PBS, and seeing an episode of Insomniac with Dave Attell. Now, If my interrogation is over, I have a some questions. Where in AK do you live? Have you ever been to PWS? How often do you discuss this with people? Can somebody have a conversation with you, and not feel like they are being judged? (I ask this because I want to know if people will give you an honest answer, or tell you what you want to hear?) Do you hang out with anyone else that is not inside liberal circles?

I never said that the fishing industry had completely recoverd, I never said that Exxon was a hero. I never said that people were praising them for spilling oil, but in fairness thought the company did a good job in the clean up stage. I was merely pointing out that they didn't just run away from the accident. Also I'm just merely stating what clean-up experts say, that clean-up price is not as big a deal, as it's not effective. Nature cleaning up the rest is however more effective. I'm not claiming that AK didn't suffer. I'm stating that the oil industry has gotten smarter and cleaner. I support the drilling off of the shore of my own state, and don't have a fear of anything horrible happening. The strides made by oil companies on the safety side is very impressive. Stating that nobody in AK likes Exxon is more extreme than managing to talk to roughly .000035% of the population.
 
I am in no way saying that you should feel sorry for EXXON for having to pay for the clean up. I'm merely saying you can't make a company a complete villain for the event either. Now as far as my vacation, this was the time line of events. We started the trip with a 5 day 4 night fishing charter. Captain Ron's Alaska Adventures it was a great time with a great crew. Of which I asked members of the crew of their opinion of the Exxon situation. (Since we were out in the Prince William Sound, it seemed fitting.) We then spent 5 days camping at different state parks in the region. Shoup Bay and Jack Bay SMP where we actually discussed it with members of the State Park service, again they applauded their clean-up efforts. We then ended our trip where it started in Anchorage. We enjoyed a great bar called Humpy's Great Alaskan Alehouse, and stayed at the Sheraton Anchorage Hotel. I have no problem working politics (as it's my job) into any conversation, and since we were from the south most people noticed our accent. So thus we got questions about our trip, and I would ask my own questions in return. We actually got the idea for the trip from watching old camping shows on PBS, and seeing an episode of Insomniac with Dave Attell.
Sounds like a decent trip, I hope you enjoyed your time and the weather was good and you caught plenty of fish. As for me personally and the Exxon situation, it is an issue in AK where emotions run high. I have some family friends in Cordova and Valdez, and have attended meetings, conferences etc with a bunch of people from PWS through commercial fishing issues and state politics, etc. I am not sure when you were here, but the situation intensified in the last year since the USSC ruling. I am not exaggerating in the slightest when I say that Exxon execs, Joe Hazelwood, and a few others involved would need an armed guard to walk through Cordova.
I guess I could say I do give credit to Exxon for picking up the bill for cleanup right away instead of walking away. But again, I would equate that to someone driving drunk, killing a pedestrian on the sidewalk and calling 911 instead of driving off.
Now, If my interrogation is over, I have a some questions.
Ill take a step back, I didnt mean to grill you, I just have come across some folks who have claims to do certain things in AK and it is obvious they have little clue about the reality on the ground.
Where in AK do you live?
A small town on the west coast in the Bristol Bay region.(same hometown as Todd Palin)
Have you ever been to PWS?
Yes many times. I have hunted deer on Montague Island, Worked as a deckhand on the bowpickers, and as a young kid(pre-spill) while sitting in my uncle's boat had a pink salmon jump out of the water right into my lap.
How often do you discuss this with people?
On this website, whenever the issue comes up. But when it comes to this sort of issue nowadays, it is generally tied into the proposed Pebble Mine, which is a proposed massive pit mine at the headwaters of the two most important rivers in the Bristol Bay region, and is the next highly controversial resource exploitation suggestion.
Can somebody have a conversation with you, and not feel like they are being judged?
:D Yeah, youd probably be surprised. In person, I generally listen first and speak second.
Do you hang out with anyone else that is not inside liberal circles?
Another smile from me here. Firstly, a liberal in Alaska is not exactly a liberal anywhere else. I am more of a pro choice, pro-gun, pro-ANWR non Republican when it comes to the lower 48 scale. But I spend plenty of time with hard core republicans. There are a few of my family members who are known throughout the state in the political scene that many in the lower 48 would consider right of right.
I never said that the fishing industry had completely recoverd, I never said that Exxon was a hero. I never said that people were praising them for spilling oil, but in fairness thought the company did a good job in the clean up stage. I was merely pointing out that they didn't just run away from the accident. Also I'm just merely stating what clean-up experts say, that clean-up price is not as big a deal, as it's not effective. Nature cleaning up the rest is however more effective. I'm not claiming that AK didn't suffer. I'm stating that the oil industry has gotten smarter and cleaner. I support the drilling off of the shore of my own state, and don't have a fear of anything horrible happening. The strides made by oil companies on the safety side is very impressive. Stating that nobody in AK likes Exxon is more extreme than managing to talk to roughly .000035% of the population.
While I appreciate your view point, I will point out that Exxon in recent years has pursued a weakening in the transit safeguards that went into place since the spill, due to cost cutting measures, which is what led to the original spill.

As for oil and gas development, I generally support it. I have been known to say, drill ANWR, suck it dry, designate another ANWR and drill there too. While it might be tongue and cheek for the suggestion, my point is that on-shore oil and gas is overall pretty safe. Whereas I question offshore drilling in some areas. The coast of Alaska has long, and continues to provide a good portion of the worlds sustainable fisheries. I have seen first hand that the two dont generally mix well in northern waters. This goes back to the fact, where there hasnt been a proven method to clean up an oil spill in sea ice conditions that happens all the time here.
Ultimately though, the mechanical systems have proven pretty good for the most part. What concerns me is the human factor. This has proven to fail time and time again. When humans make something idiot proof, humans manage to build a better idiot.
 
When humans make something idiot proof, humans manage to build a better idiot.

Now, that's quotable!

Speaking of the Pebble Mine, just what is the status of that project? Does it look like those pesky left wing radical environmentalists will win, or will it be the evil despoilers of nature?

In other words, is one of the world's treasures still in jeopardy?
 
A few things here, firstly, I am an overall supporter of public lands. That access that is provided to utilize the outdoors is one of the great things about Alaska, and most of the western states. It belongs to everyone and doesnt become the private enclave of the rich or well placed, which is what you find with places like Texas. So with that caveat, there are times when the restrictions placed on development in those places are potentially short sighted in certain circumstances. Then of course when it becomes obvious that some reasonable development needs to be made, it takes an act of Congress.

It's funny, but the Rich love public lands too. Have you ever done research on the effects of "open space" laws in California? Ever wonder why California land is so expensive, that no one but the rich can afford to live there? There's a reason.

Open space laws, and public land laws, deny land to the public to be used. So in a community in California, a bunch of Rich people get together, and propose and pass an open space law, that denies people building rights on land.

What does that do? Supply and Demand, remember? A growing population, will always have higher demand. But with an "Open Space" law, the amount of available land is reduced. What's the result? Lower supply, higher demand... land and home prices sky rocket. This is great for Rich people, and horrible for lower and middle income people. The Rich love public land. They can systematically shut lower income people out of their communities using it.

But of course, the Rich don't want to be considered greedy, or holding people down by denying lower and middle class housing. So instead they paint public lands as being a benefit to the lower and middle class. Just like you detailed here.

Btw, before public lands, and open space laws in California, the average home cost for CA was comparable to any other state.

All of this is from Thomas Sowell's book Economic Facts and Fallacies.

Well it isnt my Native Corp, it is a different one I am not affiliated with. But that is besides the point, because that local corp, will benefit greatly by the road being built. They own the local store, and are part owners in the local seafood processing plant. This will allow them to fly goods in and out of Cold Bay, which is the third longest runway in the state and is fully IFR equipped. So it will mean not only access to better medical facilities, but cheaper goods, and a higher profit on exported goods that dont need to be flown to Cold Bay.

Again, my point is, it should never have been in federal hands. The reason your state did not benefit from the roads it needed for the past ten years or more, is because you allowed the federal government to dictate to you what you could do with your own land. You got exactly what you deserved.

Same thing with ANWR. You gave the federal government control over a huge chunk of Alaska, and then bewailed the fact that you couldn't extract your own natural resources for 20+ years.

While you play politics with who "allowed you to use your own land", you ignore the fact, it should never have been in their hands to begin with.

If the government had no control over Alaska at all, would you have built the road? Of course, and likely 10 years ago. If the government had no say, would you be drilling in ANWR?

revised-anwr-map.png


Heck yeah, and likely would have started more than 20 years ago. But instead you allowed the federal government, which has no constitutional right, to dictate to you what you can do with your own land.

And in the name of prevent the Rich from using it? Are joking? The Rich are benefiting the most from this. Higher cost of goods, due to a lack of a service road, means more profits for the Rich. Higher cost of oil, due to a lack of getting the oil we have, results in higher profits for the Rich.

You are not stopping the Rich, you are literally lining their pockets.
 
Werbung:
It's funny, but the Rich love public lands too. Have you ever done research on the effects of "open space" laws in California? Ever wonder why California land is so expensive, that no one but the rich can afford to live there? There's a reason.

Open space laws, and public land laws, deny land to the public to be used. So in a community in California, a bunch of Rich people get together, and propose and pass an open space law, that denies people building rights on land.

What does that do? Supply and Demand, remember? A growing population, will always have higher demand. But with an "Open Space" law, the amount of available land is reduced. What's the result? Lower supply, higher demand... land and home prices sky rocket. This is great for Rich people, and horrible for lower and middle income people. The Rich love public land. They can systematically shut lower income people out of their communities using it.

There is one problem with your reasoning when it comes to California. Despite the population of 35 million, there really is a lot of empty land in this state, much of it in private hands. The limiting factor here is not space, but water. There could well be thriving cities in the Coast Range mountains, for example, if a practical way could be found to bring water there. There would be a lot more land under cultivation, too, if there were more water.



But of course, the Rich don't want to be considered greedy, or holding people down by denying lower and middle class housing. So instead they paint public lands as being a benefit to the lower and middle class. Just like you detailed here.

Btw, before public lands, and open space laws in California, the average home cost for CA was comparable to any other state.


And now, after the housing bubble burst, the average home price is once again comparable. High housing costs here were fueled mainly by speculation.




Again, my point is, it should never have been in federal hands. The reason your state did not benefit from the roads it needed for the past ten years or more, is because you allowed the federal government to dictate to you what you could do with your own land. You got exactly what you deserved.

Same thing with ANWR. You gave the federal government control over a huge chunk of Alaska, and then bewailed the fact that you couldn't extract your own natural resources for 20+ years.

While you play politics with who "allowed you to use your own land", you ignore the fact, it should never have been in their hands to begin with.


Who should have been the owner of public lands, then? Homesteaders? The highest bidder? Who?

If the government had no control over Alaska at all, would you have built the road? Of course, and likely 10 years ago. If the government had no say, would you be drilling in ANWR?

If drilling in ANWR is cost effective, then yes, of course it would have been done by now.

Heck yeah, and likely would have started more than 20 years ago. But instead you allowed the federal government, which has no constitutional right, to dictate to you what you can do with your own land.

Because the federal government, in other words, you and I, are the owners of that land. Are you suggesting it be given away?
 
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