Obama adopts a conservative approach!

[Unite Our Nation]

Pidgey,

There are several people I know whom I trust who took a good look at the total plan and they pronounced it sound. So you will forgive me that I believe them and not you.

T Boone is spending his own money on this. I do not believe it is a scheme for him to make money. Sorry.

He is the only person that has come up with a doable plan.

Do you have a better one? If so, please share with me.

 

[Andy]

Andy,
Yes, I understand what you are saying. That is the problem though isn't it? That we can't tell if we are creating a monster or not. So why not stop giving money and weapons to all of the middle east? It's been unstable since the beginning of time and if you believe in what Revelations tells us...which I do...will be the cause of the end of the world as we know it.

Two reasons. At the time, without knowing about Saddam, what we did know was the cruel and horrible treatment the Soviets gave to conquered people. So do we let them fall to the Soviets, knowing the tortures, show trials, and gulags that awaits them? Or do we support the opposition in hopes that it turns out good?

Because it could have just as well turned out good, right? But if we had not helped, there's no question it would have been bad, and we know that.

Second is, because the soviets were our enemies, and we were in a life or death struggle with them. Most economists who have researched this indicated one of the main reasons Reagan was able to defeat the Soviet union was through world wide opposition that Reagan supported.

Before, the soviets simply attacked and gained control of more and more peoples and land, without much opposition, or with pathetic opposition like Vietnam.

Reagan changed that. He supported resistance to the Soviets on a global scale they had never seen before. It was this world resistance, combined with the Reagan's SDI and Star-wars program, that broke the Soviet machine, and caused the entire evil empire to fall apart. The Soviets couldn't afford to support so many confrontations in so many places world wide, and so much R&D for missile shields, and for satellite combat. As a result, the economic strain destroyed them.

 

[Unite Our Nation]

There is never any simple answers are there?!! I do remember the history of this now that you remind me.

I am weary of the middle east and their constant problems...

 

[Andy]

Pidgey,

There are several people I know whom I trust who took a good look at the total plan and they pronounced it sound. So you will forgive me that I believe them and not you.

T Boone is spending his own money on this. I do not believe it is a scheme for him to make money. Sorry.

He is the only person that has come up with a doable plan.

Do you have a better one? If so, please share with me.

Sadly, I have to agree with Pidgey. T Boone is more of a scam. Wind Energy is horrible. Since you can't count on it, you must have conventional source of energy at all times. If we have to have 25 coal power plants running, regardless of how many wind mills you have, why have the mills at all?

Natural gas cars are ok, there isn't anything horribly wrong with them. But I'd have to suggest, that isn't really a solution. Why? Because natural gas is being hailed as a solution to everything. The demand for natural gas is pushing up the prices across the entire nation. If we start having a significant push for CNG cars, that will logically push demand way higher, when it's already been out growing supply as is.

Further, government is distorting the market. Without it, we wouldn't even be thinking about CNG cars. Currently CNG cars cost six to seven thousand more than their conventional equivalent. The only reason people even consider buying a very expensive Civic, is because the government is dishing out $4,000 in hand outs per person who buys one.

Moreover, CNG is tax subsidized so that many people are not paying the full cost of CNG. Even with that subsidy, the cost for CNG in my area is $1 higher in per gasoline equivalent, than regular unleaded.

In other words they are taxing money out of your pocket, to give a tiny bit back to you, to buy an expensive car that will have higher fuel costs, in order to "save us" from oil. Why does it cost so much to save ourselves?

 

[Andy]

There is never any simple answers are there?!! I do remember the history of this now that you remind me.

I am weary of the middle east and their constant problems...

How quickly we forget

 

[Bunz]

I'll bite... which ally?

Canada, Germany, France, Turkey to name a few.

And what would you have done?

I probably would have left Iraq as it was from 91-03. Militarily isolated, under sanction, and if military intervention would have become necessary, I would have only done it through the UN, with a real coalition.

But I would have put in the military resources needed towards Afghanistan in 2001, when the whole thing started. The light fast approach we took didnt and isnt getting the job done. Iraq became a distraction from the real threat.

Also, as I just mentioned in another thread, I would have put more pressure on the KSA, including thier stance towards Israel, clamping down on thier citizens that are flying planes into our landmarks, and expected more help from the Sauds with concern to what would have been a surrounded Iraq.

 

[Bunz]

I question whether "middle" is possible. A policy is either left or right. You can't have a free-market socialist policy, anymore than you can help the economy by increasing taxes.

Well maybe moderate is a better term. But when it comes to the political sphere I think it is more complex than simply being left or right, I like to think of it in terms of shades of gray.

Bunz, in all honest, I'm always humored when people say that. Do you realize that every single election people always say that? I'm not even that old. I can only remember first hand, about oh... 4 elections. Each time, people come out and say "oh I hope we can now stop with the partisan bickering..." "Oh I hope we can quite the fighting and contesting, and get along" "Oh I hope we can unite and come together, and blaw blaw blaw".

I would say it certainly does scale back each time after the election season is over. For instance I havent heard Obama referred to as a socialist muslim non-American terrorist in quite awhile.

It never happens. It hasn't happened in all my short years, and in all the research I've done on various campaigns and presidencies, it's never happened in Bush Sr, Reagan, Carter or Nixon. That's about as far back as I have gone, but I'd wager it's been this way much further back than that.

Why? Because when people disagree on policy, that leads to fighting. It's always going to be this way. For example, I'll never support Obama. Never. It's simply not going to happen. I don't even support him here, I just support the policy. Taxing oil companies helps nothing. Simply because I agree with the policy, does not mean I support the messiah wannabie.

I still dont understand the messiah claims, but either way, I dont think anyone should be so naive as to support everything a candidate does, simply because they supported that candidate in the ballot booth.

 

[Unite Our Nation]

Where are the answers guys? I'm reading a lot of what won't work, so what will?

 

[Pidgey]

Pidgey,

There are several people I know whom I trust who took a good look at the total plan and they pronounced it sound. So you will forgive me that I believe them and not you.

T Boone is spending his own money on this. I do not believe it is a scheme for him to make money. Sorry.

He is the only person that has come up with a doable plan.

Do you have a better one? If so, please share with me.

Well, since I project in the energy business, most of it to do with natural gas, I can see your reservations.

Conceptually without applying real numbers, it looks feasible--but mostly from a static viewpoint versus a dynamic one. That is to say that given the proposed deployment within the linear time required, feedbacks are going to keep us from realizing the major objective: maintaining the current scale of the economy to prevent catastrophic collapse.

You might find a little more current information here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/01/MNO512K43O.DTL&tsp=1

 

[Bunz]

UON,
In terms of energy solutions, it is gonna be a multiple pronged approach. As I believe Andy pointed out earlier, diesel is critical our current fleet of heavy equipment and aviation industries. Jet fuel is quite close to diesel.

Wind should be used where it is viable, so should solar, and tidal, geothermal and coal liquification.

In terms of nat-gas though, it is more than viable in private vehicles and even plenty of city buses use it. In Australia, there are more than a few cars that have been converted to natural gas. You can tell because they have some sort of black flap hanging off the rear bumper to ground the vehicle.

We do have lots of gas here, and Alaska is working hard on creating another pipeline that will tie into expanding natgas infastracture being built in the US and Canada. It apparently is going to be the largest private construction project in the history of the world.

 

[Pidgey]

Where are the answers guys? I'm reading a lot of what won't work, so what will?

DO everything while decreasing everyone's expectations as per capita energy consumption is scaled back.

I guess you haven't considered that all the blather about "Global Warming" is a ruse to get The Masses used to the idea of going back to The Dark Ages because that's what's going to happen whether we like it or not, huh?

 

[Pidgey]

Sadly, I have to agree with Pidgey.

Doesn't have quite the impact that Mr. Shaman agreeing with me would (S.mirkE+27), but it's still something...

 

[top gun]

Things are changing and the need for more troops in Afghanistan has become important, where it wasn't before.

That's actually not the case. As President-elect Obama has always said those that attacked us on 9-11 were located in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region. Now it's true when we invaded Iraq some terrorist gravitated there... because we were there.

The truth is Saddam Hussein was in a box and could not attack anybody... Bush knew that... Bush knew the was no, zero connection to Iraq & the 9-11 attacks.

So yes things are always evolving... but President-elect Obama who spoke out against this invasion/occupation based on lies from the very beginning was correct.

It seems you might be assuming a lot of things that aren't exactly true when it comes to obama. I'll reserve my judgement when I see what the guy actually does.

That's fair.

 

[top gun]

TopG,
Can you explain what you mean by "nation building" in your previous post? I'm not following. (where's that embarrassed emoticon when you need it?!)

Nation Building is when you try to force another sovereign country into being more US friendly.

This can and has been done by the US in the form of CIA operatives stirring up political opponents to a certain government... or actually funding & training opposition gorilla forces... or just plain invading and setting up a pro American government.

A very good example (besides Iraq) is actually Iran. They had a democratically elected President and the US worked to have him overthrown. The US then installed the Shah of Iran as leader. But eventually the Iranian people revolted against that and stormed our Embassy and took their government back.

Which by the way is easy to see is now much more a hostile to America then they were before we tried to manipulate them with our original overthrow.

 

[top gun]

Oh sorry. I completely missed the "arrogant judgmental" obviousness of why talking works so well, even though it didn't.

So now you're saying you do understand.

Why yes, yes of course! You just never know when a crazy nut that believes the holocaust never happened, claims to want to destroy Israel as soon as he can, and has been evading UN nuclear inspection to enrich Uranium for the purpose of making a nuclear bomb... just might have a diplomatic opportunity we can't pass up....

Why yes Top Gun, I can see clearly the brilliance of your policy. If we just talk enough, maybe we can discuss which Israeli city he'll nuke first so we can send them a love note saying "Run for you lives! Mad man with nuke coming!".

My young man do you somehow pull out of your hat that I said anywhere that the leaders in Iran are good people? Because I never said that. The former "WE WILL BURY YOU" COMMUNIST LEADERS of the former USSR weren't fluffy little bunnies either.

Pull out your 7th grade history text book here and we'll do a little spot quiz. Did we "talk" with them. Did we "negotiate" with them? See this isn't really tough to follow.

Funny I can think of a few words for you myself. Both of which are in illustrated in the above text. Do tell Top Gun, have you been to Harvard or Yale?

I see you come up with a whole lot of words. It's the concepts that seem to be the sticking point.

No Harvard no Yale... Otterbein and Ohio State were the colleges I attended. Graduated from State.

Yeah, and if our enemies pop up and start wiping out our troops because we alerted them to the best possible time to attack, I'll blame Obama, and his idiot squad of robots. You really don't know jack about military tactics do you? There are two times when troops are most vulnerable. When they first show up, and we there are pulling out. Most any idiot who understands anything about military warfare knows this, unless you are a democrat for some reason.

Thus the worst thing you can do is send on a new alert on CNN, that May 13th, our troops will be pulling out that thus easy targets for the enemy. That's just plain stupid, and typical democrat policy.

Well General I don't know... my wife is an ex-ARMY Military Intelligence Captain (a Russian Linguist that speaks 4 languages and was stationed at the Army Linguistics headquarters in Monterey California). She speaks to me once and a while.

Not to mention while they aren't allowed to talk specifics my best friend's son is in country in Iraq on his 4th tour who also just happens to be in Intelligence, a Staff Sergeant. So I get a little trickle back from on the ground .

As far as leaving... then your proposal is we just never leave and that is most certainly unacceptable seeing how this whole Republican led endeavor was based on lies.

Your big strategy is to become a permanent main target in a war like the Israeli Palestinian conflict that's been going on for like 1000 years... I'm not feelin' it!

Thank God we now have a President that's not just "Big hat no cattle!"