Left Turn...

[Pandora]

The neocortex is not formed until early in the third trimester. Fetuses begin to develop a minimal brain stem at 7 weeks, but are not capable of consciousness until the third trimester. That is why terminating a pregnancy during the first trimester is not equivalent to killing a post-natal person.

Post-Natal person? What exactly is that? Within the first two weeks they have their own DNA by the first two months they have a heart, liver and nervous system. I need to understand what a post-natal person is

 

[Pandora]

My position on abortion has been the same in the last 40 years, and is very unlikely to change.

While I am not pro-abortion, I am absolutely, 100% pro-choice. I feel that one of the greatest blessings in my life (other than my kids and a stable 40 years marriage) is that I had never had to make that terribly difficult decision whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

I do not believe that 95% of women EVER make that decision lightly, but it is THEIRS to make!

I do not consider that a less than 3 months foetus is equal to a life child that has been brought in this world. And I believe that it is hypocrisy or lunacy for "pro-life" people to believe in the death penalty AND to believe that, as soon as the child is born, he/she is the total responsibility of the mother, even if the mother never intended to give birth to that child. Too many people who are standing against Women's right to choose will turn their backs on those women and those newborns by refusing to acknowledge this society responsibility in providing assistance to assure that the newborn and his mother receive pre-natal care, that the newborn has follow up medical care, that he/she has a REAL future, other than living it's all life in the gutter because he/she was born in poverty.

I do not believe that abortion should EVER be used as a form of birth control, but birth control should be readily (and cheaply) available to all women, including, and maybe especially, teenagers. Luckily, the Obama healthcare bill is now providing free birth control for all insured. . . a great step in the right direction.

A fetus of 3 months is not equal to a life child. First please explain what a life child is, this is a term I have not heard before.

Is a 4 month fetus equal to a life child? If not, at what month in gestation do you feel The fetus becomes a life child, person, human or what ever

By the way the word fetus is a Latin word never translated to english. It means Your offspring or your little one.

You say you are not pro abortion but you are for a woman's right to choose. In an earlier post you did not seem to feel its ok for a woman to have a right to not wear a seat belt, but you are ok with a woman's right to kill her offspring or her little one.

So if I were to say I am not pro domestic violence but I am pro choice for a man to beat his wife.... Do I sound reasonable and does my opinion sound well thought out?



I am with you on the hypocrisy of being pro life but pro death penalty by the way

 

[Openmind]

A fetus of 3 months is not equal to a life child. First please explain what a life child is, this is a term I have not heard before.

Is a 4 month fetus equal to a life child? If not, at what month in gestation do you feel The fetus becomes a life child, person, human or what ever

By the way the word fetus is a Latin word never translated to english. It means Your offspring or your little one.

You say you are not pro abortion but you are for a woman's right to choose. In an earlier post you did not seem to feel its ok for a woman to have a right to not wear a seat belt, but you are ok with a woman's right to kill her offspring or her little one.

So if I were to say I am not pro domestic violence but I am pro choice for a man to beat his wife.... Do I sound reasonable and does my opinion sound well thought out?



I am with you on the hypocrisy of being pro life but pro death penalty by the way

We are going in a circle. I think I made myself clear.

I make a big difference between a FOETUS

(link: Science: biology, embryology, obstetrics) a developing unborn offspring of an animal that gives birth to its young (as opposed to laying eggs).

From approximately three months after conception the offspring take on a recognisable form (all parts in Place, etc.). In human development, the period after the seventh or eighth week of pregnancy is the foetal period. An unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal.A developed embryo that appears to have similar structural characteristics to that of its adult form.

and an embryo, or a fully developed child who is able to survive outside the womb. While all MAY have the potential to become a human being, neither an embryo or an early stage foetus have fulfilled that potential as yet.

I personally do not care whether or not you find that as a mother, a woman has an increased responsibility to assuret that she stays alive for her children. That is my opinion, but I wouldn't push it on anyone.

I believe you are getting on a very slippery slope if you believe that the right of one woman to make a decision that will influence the next (at least 18 years of her life. . .and maybe her first child/children's life) can be in anyway compared to the right of a husband to physically abuse his wife.

Why don't you try to sort out apples and oranges first, then we may be able to find something to debate.

 

[Pandora]

We are going in a circle. I think I made myself clear.

I make a big difference between a FOETUS



and an embryo, or a fully developed child who is able to survive outside the womb. While all MAY have the potential to become a human being, neither an embryo or an early stage foetus have fulfilled that potential as yet.

I personally do not care whether or not you find that as a mother, a woman has an increased responsibility to assuret that she stays alive for her children. That is my opinion, but I wouldn't push it on anyone.

I believe you are getting on a very slippery slope if you believe that the right of one woman to make a decision that will influence the next (at least 18 years of her life. . .and maybe her first child/children's life) can be in anyway compared to the right of a husband to physically abuse his wife.

Why don't you try to sort out apples and oranges first, then we may be able to find something to debate.

Would you mind answering the question or are you done with this topic?
I asked at what point you feel the fetus is considered a human or have human rights to live exc.?

4 months in gestation? 6? 7? only at 9? or more like Barbara Boxer who said its only a person when the mother picks it up and claims it.


And having a baby is not a 18 year commitment. You can give the child up for adoption but if you don't and you are thinking it's only an 18 year commitment, you are in for a surprise.

also you are right, it's a bad comparison to say not being pro domestic violence but saying a person has aright to hit their spouse can in no way compare to not being pro abortion but being pro a woman's right to choose abortion. One act heals in 3 days the other kills a person. They can not be compared

 

[Openmind]

Would you mind answering the question or are you done with this topic?
I asked at what point you feel the fetus is considered a human or have human rights to live exc.?

4 months in gestation? 6? 7? only at 9? or more like Barbara Boxer who said its only a person when the mother picks it up and claims it.


And having a baby is not a 18 year commitment. You can give the child up for adoption but if you don't and you are thinking it's only an 18 year commitment, you are in for a surprise.

also you are right, it's a bad comparison to say not being pro domestic violence but saying a person has aright to hit their spouse can in no way compare to not being pro abortion but being pro a woman's right to choose abortion. One act heals in 3 days the other kills a person. They can not be compared

You need to read for comprehension. I answered your question: When a foetus is able to survive outside the womb. Then, in my opinion, it becomes an individual. . .although it still wouldn't survive without extreme care.

Do you know how many kids are up for adoptions? I'm not taking about the "cute little caucasian babies, full of health, and preferably younger than 3 months old!" I am talking about all the "throw away" babies, the babies born addicted to drugs, the less than perfect babies, the "old" babies! And the children who were so cute when they were under one year old, but are not destined to remain in several foster homes until they turn 18.

As a social worker, I've seen all of them. As a mother, I adopted one of them to be a sister to my natural born son.

Don't even think you know me, or that you can try to demonstrate your superior moral character to me. You must be very young. . .or very foolish.

 

[Pandora]

You need to read for comprehension. I answered your question: When a foetus is able to survive outside the womb. Then, in my opinion, it becomes an individual. . .although it still wouldn't survive without extreme care.

Do you know how many kids are up for adoptions? I'm not taking about the "cute little caucasian babies, full of health, and preferably younger than 3 months old!" I am talking about all the "throw away" babies, the babies born addicted to drugs, the less than perfect babies, the "old" babies! And the children who were so cute when they were under one year old, but are not destined to remain in several foster homes until they turn 18.

As a social worker, I've seen all of them. As a mother, I adopted one of them to be a sister to my natural born son.

Don't even think you know me, or that you can try to demonstrate your superior moral character to me. You must be very young. . .or very foolish.

I did read your post, I guess I did not understand what you were saying. Still don't. "Till it can survive outside the womb."?? I have known people who had their baby in the last part of 5 months gestation and he survived and I also know people who have aborted in the last 5 months of gestation, that baby obviously did not survive. So you still really have not answered my question. Most people don't even realize they are pregnant till the late part of the 2d month or really early part of the 3d and often the abortion is not done till the 4th month and some go well into the 8th and 9th month in some states. With modern medicine very premature babies often live.


Yes, I know about adoption, I adopted a 3 year old. The people next door to me wanted to adopt a baby but couldn't get one because there were not enough babies for the list of families wanting babies so they adopted 3 children from Korea. I know many people who adopted from over seas to get infants and many people who adopted older kids like I did.


There you go again with the insults ... what is the point of that?

 

[Openmind]

I did read your post, I guess I did not understand what you were saying. Still don't. "Till it can survive outside the womb."?? I have known people who had their baby in the last part of 5 months gestation and he survived and I also know people who have aborted in the last 5 months of gestation, that baby obviously did not survive. So you still really have not answered my question. Most people don't even realize they are pregnant till the late part of the 2d month or really early part of the 3d and often the abortion is not done till the 4th month and some go well into the 8th and 9th month in some states. With modern medicine very premature babies often live.


Yes, I know about adoption, I adopted a 3 year old. The people next door to me wanted to adopt a baby but couldn't get one because there were not enough babies for the list of families wanting babies so they adopted 3 children from Korea. I know many people who adopted from over seas to get infants and many people who adopted older kids like I did.


There you go again with the insults ... what is the point of that?

Insults? What insults?

And, NO, late term abortion are unlawful in every state, except if the life of the mother is in jeopardy, or if the child is too severely damaged.

30, 40 years ago, maybe you would have been right. Today, a woman can find out if she is pregnant as early as 2 weeks after fertilization, but certainly after she misses her first period. If a woman is not "aware" enough to suspect she is pregnant before the 3rd month, what makes you think she would be aware enough to take care of a child?

There are PLENTY of children waiting to be adopted. . .but people want "perfect" children. And there is nothing wrong with adopting children from foreign countries. In fact, my daughter came to us from Korea when she was between the age of 5 and 6.

I respect the fact that YOU choose not to have an abortion, and that YOU do not believe that a woman should have the choice to carry a pregnancy to term or not.

I do NOT respect your insinuations that anyone who believe that ONLY the woman has the right to make that choice is a murderer, or has no moral. I believe that is insulting. It is also immature and hypocritical, as the same people will fight with all their might to keep these women and children from getting the proper health care, proper education, child care, and any other assistance that MIGHT make a difference in the decision whether to terminate a pregnancy or not.

Why don't we just agree to disagree. I do not believe you are a murderer because you support a cause that led some people to murdering doctors who performed abortions.

Stop insulting me by infering that I support murder because my belief and my respect for women lead me to support their right to choose to have a legal abortion within the first 3 or 4 months of pregnancy. . .earlier if possible, when the "cluster of cell" is merely an embryo, but even at the stage of a 10 to 14 weeks foetus.

God gave us all free will. Who are YOU, and who are the politicians, and the judges, to take away that free will?

 

[Pandora]

Insults? What insults?

And, NO, late term abortion are unlawful in every state, except if the life of the mother is in jeopardy, or if the child is too severely damaged.

30, 40 years ago, maybe you would have been right. Today, a woman can find out if she is pregnant as early as 2 weeks after fertilization, but certainly after she misses her first period. If a woman is not "aware" enough to suspect she is pregnant before the 3rd month, what makes you think she would be aware enough to take care of a child?

There are PLENTY of children waiting to be adopted. . .but people want "perfect" children. And there is nothing wrong with adopting children from foreign countries. In fact, my daughter came to us from Korea when she was between the age of 5 and 6.

I respect the fact that YOU choose not to have an abortion, and that YOU do not believe that a woman should have the choice to carry a pregnancy to term or not.

I do NOT respect your insinuations that anyone who believe that ONLY the woman has the right to make that choice is a murderer, or has no moral. I believe that is insulting. It is also immature and hypocritical, as the same people will fight with all their might to keep these women and children from getting the proper health care, proper education, child care, and any other assistance that MIGHT make a difference in the decision whether to terminate a pregnancy or not.

Why don't we just agree to disagree. I do not believe you are a murderer because you support a cause that led some people to murdering doctors who performed abortions.

Stop insulting me by infering that I support murder because my belief and my respect for women lead me to support their right to choose to have a legal abortion within the first 3 or 4 months of pregnancy. . .earlier if possible, when the "cluster of cell" is merely an embryo, but even at the stage of a 10 to 14 weeks foetus.

God gave us all free will. Who are YOU, and who are the politicians, and the judges, to take away that free will?

If you cannot see the insults maybe its just your nature and I will have to get used to it. That is ok with me.

Kansas has really sick late term abortion laws. And it is not based on the life of the mother its based on the health of the mother. That can mean anything from depression to you name it.

Dr TIller used to preform late term abortions to the 9th month and for a small fee he would take pictures of your dead baby and even give them a baptism and do the feet and hand prints of your dead baby. Someone killed him so he isn't doing it anymore but it was not long before another doctor came to replace him.

Late term abortion also is big in Illinois A famous case of a botched late term abortion where the baby was born alive and stayed alive, they didn't know what to do with this baby so they left it in the dirty laundry room to die, it took a few hours. That case was presented to the Illinois senate while obama was a senator. He voted present 3 times then stopped it from coming to the floor once. There are other states that offer late term abortion too and they are also for the "health" of the mother not the "life" of the mother. Leaves lots of wiggle room to make excuses why those babies should die.

No need to respect me for not having an abortion, I did have an abortion and I know the mental pain that stems from it for years after when you were not given all the facts and options before hand.

I am not inferring anything about you. So don't let yourself get insulted
You should not let yourself get insulted by other peoples belief systems.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

If you cannot see the insults maybe its just your nature and I will have to get used to it. That is ok with me.

Kansas has really sick late term abortion laws. And it is not based on the life of the mother its based on the health of the mother. That can mean anything from depression to you name it.

Dr TIller used to preform late term abortions to the 9th month and for a small fee he would take pictures of your dead baby and even give them a baptism and do the feet and hand prints of your dead baby. Someone killed him so he isn't doing it anymore but it was not long before another doctor came to replace him.

Late term abortion also is big in Illinois A famous case of a botched late term abortion where the baby was born alive and stayed alive, they didn't know what to do with this baby so they left it in the dirty laundry room to die, it took a few hours. That case was presented to the Illinois senate while obama was a senator. He voted present 3 times then stopped it from coming to the floor once. There are other states that offer late term abortion too and they are also for the "health" of the mother not the "life" of the mother. Leaves lots of wiggle room to make excuses why those babies should die.

No need to respect me for not having an abortion, I did have an abortion and I know the mental pain that stems from it for years after when you were not given all the facts and options before hand.

I am not inferring anything about you. So don't let yourself get insulted
You should not let yourself get insulted by other peoples belief systems.

and you would like to get rid of the wiggle and tell them to let the mother die? But you go ahead and make the choice for someone and bypass there wishes and the dr's..just say no...you must die because I don't want wiggle room

 

[Pandora]

and you would like to get rid of the wiggle and tell them to let the mother die? But you go ahead and make the choice for someone and bypass there wishes and the dr's..just say no...you must die because I don't want wiggle room

I have never said that! I would never want a woman to die in child birth, NEVER!


If a woman were about to die due to being pregnant and was 8 months or 9 months along, I would want that baby out of the woman as fast as possible.

I sure would not want to wait till the doctor could be sure the baby would come out breech even if it means turning the baby from a normal birthing position to force an unnatural and very dangerous and painful breech delivery

I would not want him to induce labor then wait till the baby starts to be born when time is critical

I would not want a doctor to force a dying woman to have a breech child only to hold the baby's head inside the dying woman just a bit longer so he could stab the baby in the back of the head, still keeping the baby's head in the woman till the doctor was absolutely sure the baby was dead because he doesn't want a botched abortion on his hands and the baby to live.

I would give the woman and emergency C section then tend to her needs so she lives.


Why would you think it is better to have a dying woman go through an intentional breech delivery to save her life when a C section would save her faster, hell just a normal delivery, baby coming out head first would be faster and safer than a breech delivery.

And what part of holding the baby's head inside the woman just a little longer till you are sure the baby is dead from the puncture wound the doctor intentionally put in the back of the baby's head going to help save the dying woman?

 

[Pandora]

and you would like to get rid of the wiggle and tell them to let the mother die? But you go ahead and make the choice for someone and bypass there wishes and the dr's..just say no...you must die because I don't want wiggle room

I have posted over 9000 posts in this forum, easily 100 of those posts were on the topic of abortion, probably more than that.

I challenge you to find one post where I said the life of the baby was more important than the life of the mother. You wont find even one.


I have said if a woman is pregnant in the tubes she must have an abortion. She cannot live through that and neither can any baby.

I have also said if a woman is dying at even 5 months along, rather than a dangerous and painful partial birth abortion the doctor should give her an emergency C section and put the baby in an incubator. Both have the best chance of living that way. And that is exactly what would happen in a normal situation.

Only in the case when the woman is wanting an abortion do they do a partial birth abortion regardless of the health of the mother.

I would really like you to show me any case scenario where forcing breech delivery and holding the head in long enough to kill the baby will ever in any case or situation save the life of a pregnant woman over having a C section.

 

[Openmind]

I have posted over 9000 posts in this forum, easily 100 of those posts were on the topic of abortion, probably more than that.

I challenge you to find one post where I said the life of the baby was more important than the life of the mother. You wont find even one.


I have said if a woman is pregnant in the tubes she must have an abortion. She cannot live through that and neither can any baby.

I have also said if a woman is dying at even 5 months along, rather than a dangerous and painful partial birth abortion the doctor should give her an emergency C section and put the baby in an incubator. Both have the best chance of living that way. And that is exactly what would happen in a normal situation.

Only in the case when the woman is wanting an abortion do they do a partial birth abortion regardless of the health of the mother.

I would really like you to show me any case scenario where forcing breech delivery and holding the head in long enough to kill the baby will ever in any case or situation save the life of a pregnant woman over having a C section.

You are believing and spewing too much propaganda.

Actually, only 1.4% of all abortions are "late term" abortions. . .which doesn't mean "life birth" abortion alone, but any abortion after 21 weeks of gestation.

Most states only allow life birth abortion in case of "deadly risk" to mother, they don't even allow it under the term "danger to the health of the mother."

There will always be excess, and there will be a LOT MORE excess if reasonable laws that allow for safe abortions are not in place. Abortion has ALWAYS existed, and will ALWAYS exist.

The fact that a doctor performing late term abortion does give a mother the choice to honor her terminated pregnancy by providing a baptism and/or the foot print of the foetus may look as cruel or ridiculous to you. But for a mother who rejoice in being pregnant, and then finds out that something is so wrong with the baby, or with her own health that she has no real choice but to have a late term abortion, it may be a means to deal with her grief.

You assume that any woman who decide to have an abortion is devoid of any ability to love, or to care of a child. . .this is a dangerous lack of sensitivity to the issue on your part. An abortion is NEVER an easy decision to make. It is always painful, and here are always emotional grief involved.

Worry about your own life, your own child, and maybe also about helping create a system that will SUPPORT EVERY WOMAN in receiving free birth control and, if a pregnancy still occurs, to create a system that will increase the possibility that a woman could give birth, either to keep the child herself or to give it up for adoption. But judging a person for doing something you don't approve off, without looking at the whole picture is worthless, it doesn't help anyone, and it is just a football used by politicians and religious leaders to gather a gullible crowd around their ideology.

In the mean time, there are already too many children that are born in horrible circumstances, that will never be loved, cared for, and will not have a chance to really living. So many of those children end up in foster care, or in the gutter, or . . .in a trash can or plastic bag someplace! And then we all rise in outrage against child abuse and child homicide!

If every child conceived was wanted. . .child abuse and child homicide would pratically disappear. By trying to force women to give birth, whether or not they feel they can care for the child in the long term, you are creating that sad pool of newborns whose life expectancy is very short, and very painful.

It is not your place, and it is not the Church, or the government's place to make that decision for women.
I certainly am glad I never had to, not for myself, and not for anyone else, because I honestly don't know what I would have done. But I will NOT judge women who are face with that decision.

 

[Pandora]

You are believing and spewing too much propaganda.

Actually, only 1.4% of all abortions are "late term" abortions. . .which doesn't mean "life birth" abortion alone, but any abortion after 21 weeks of gestation.

Not sure I agree with your numbers but lets pretend its correct. 1.4% of abortions being partial birth abortions after 5 month gestation, when the child can live outside the womb is still unacceptable without good reason. In your post you forgot to give any good reason to have a dying woman be forced to have a breech baby instead of a C section and you forgot to explain how holding the baby's head inside the woman till the baby can be stabbed in the back of the head till its dead before letting it leave the woman's body will in any way ever save or help a woman who is dying.

You wrote in one of your posts that your mind will not change on abortion. I am happy to change my mind on it. If you can give me any scenario where it would be to the benefit of a dying woman to force her to deliver breech instead of C Section and hold the baby's head inside of her till it can be stabbed in the back of the head and wait till it dies before letting it come all the way out, I will happily change my mind. You can even make up the scenario, it doesn't have to be an actual event that happened.

states only allow life birth abortion in case of "deadly risk" to mother, they don't even allow it under the term "danger to the health of the mother."

when you say life birth abortion is that a new term for partial birth abortion? If not please explain what it is, if the meaning is the same then please explain how making a woman deliver breech instead of C section can be helpful to a dying woman and why hold the baby's head in her till it can be stabbed and dies?

will always be excess, and there will be a LOT MORE excess if reasonable laws that allow for safe abortions are not in place. Abortion has ALWAYS existed, and will ALWAYS exist.

Abortion has always existed, rape has too, murder, child abuse and many other horrible things but it doesn't make it ok, I wouldn't say oh dang that kid was killed or that woman was raped but its just part of life.

fact that a doctor performing late term abortion does give a mother the choice to honor her terminated pregnancy by providing a baptism and/or the foot print of the foetus may look as cruel or ridiculous to you. But for a mother who rejoice in being pregnant, and then finds out that something is so wrong with the baby, or with her own health that she has no real choice but to have a late term abortion, it may be a means to deal with her grief.

To say something is wrong with the baby is at least an honest argument for partial birth abortion. You don't like the sex of the baby or he doesn't have an arm or he has some genetic flaw, I still think thats a bad reason to kill a baby but at least that is an honest argument for partial birth abortion. To say the life of the mother is at stake is a ridiculous argument. Unless of course you can give me a reason its better to force a breech delivery over a C section and hold a child's head in a woman till it can be stabbed in the back of the head till its dead before letting it come all the way out.

assume that any woman who decide to have an abortion is devoid of any ability to love, or to care of a child. . .this is a dangerous lack of sensitivity to the issue on your part. An abortion is NEVER an easy decision to make. It is always painful, and here are always emotional grief involved.

I dont assume that, I had an abortion and I do not feel I am devoid of any ability to love or care for a child, If I did I would not have adopted a 3 year old girl 7 years ago.

about your own life, your own child, and maybe also about helping create a system that will SUPPORT EVERY WOMAN in receiving free birth control and, if a pregnancy still occurs, to create a system that will increase the possibility that a woman could give birth, either to keep the child herself or to give it up for adoption. But judging a person for doing something you don't approve off, without looking at the whole picture is worthless, it doesn't help anyone, and it is just a football used by politicians and religious leaders to gather a gullible crowd around their ideology.

I think you are just upset that I don't agree with you. You seem to have little tolerance for anyone who thinks outside your box.

the mean time, there are already too many children that are born in horrible circumstances, that will never be loved, cared for, and will not have a chance to really living. So many of those children end up in foster care, or in the gutter, or . . .in a trash can or plastic bag someplace! And then we all rise in outrage against child abuse and child homicide!

agreed

every child conceived was wanted. . .child abuse and child homicide would pratically disappear. By trying to force women to give birth, whether or not they feel they can care for the child in the long term, you are creating that sad pool of newborns whose life expectancy is very short, and very painful.

I have never said a woman has to raise a child just because she has them, there are many people wishing to adopt. And I support programs who help women take their baby's to term and help them find adoptive homes. Its expensive to be pregnant and deliver, its good to support programs that will help women in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy.

is not your place, and it is not the Church, or the government's place to make that decision for women.
I certainly am glad I never had to, not for myself, and not for anyone else, because I honestly don't know what I would have done. But I will NOT judge women who are face with that decision.

I never said it was my place to make decisions for women, or men for that matter. I also agree the stinkin government should get their big fat noses out of our personal lives.

 

[Openmind]

Not sure I agree with your numbers but lets pretend its correct. 1.4% of abortions being partial birth abortions after 5 month gestation, when the child can live outside the womb is still unacceptable without good reason. In your post you forgot to give any good reason to have a dying woman be forced to have a breech baby instead of a C section and you forgot to explain how holding the baby's head inside the woman till the baby can be stabbed in the back of the head till its dead before letting it leave the woman's body will in any way ever save or help a woman who is dying.

You wrote in one of your posts that your mind will not change on abortion. I am happy to change my mind on it. If you can give me any scenario where it would be to the benefit of a dying woman to force her to deliver breech instead of C Section and hold the baby's head inside of her till it can be stabbed in the back of the head and wait till it dies before letting it come all the way out, I will happily change my mind. You can even make up the scenario, it doesn't have to be an actual event that happened.




when you say life birth abortion is that a new term for partial birth abortion? If not please explain what it is, if the meaning is the same then please explain how making a woman deliver breech instead of C section can be helpful to a dying woman and why hold the baby's head in her till it can be stabbed and dies?




Abortion has always existed, rape has too, murder, child abuse and many other horrible things but it doesn't make it ok, I wouldn't say oh dang that kid was killed or that woman was raped but its just part of life.




To say something is wrong with the baby is at least an honest argument for partial birth abortion. You don't like the sex of the baby or he doesn't have an arm or he has some genetic flaw, I still think thats a bad reason to kill a baby but at least that is an honest argument for partial birth abortion. To say the life of the mother is at stake is a ridiculous argument. Unless of course you can give me a reason its better to force a breech delivery over a C section and hold a child's head in a woman till it can be stabbed in the back of the head till its dead before letting it come all the way out.






I dont assume that, I had an abortion and I do not feel I am devoid of any ability to love or care for a child, If I did I would not have adopted a 3 year old girl 7 years ago.




I think you are just upset that I don't agree with you. You seem to have little tolerance for anyone who thinks outside your box.




agreed




I have never said a woman has to raise a child just because she has them, there are many people wishing to adopt. And I support programs who help women take their baby's to term and help them find adoptive homes. Its expensive to be pregnant and deliver, its good to support programs that will help women in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy.




I never said it was my place to make decisions for women, or men for that matter. I also agree the stinkin government should get their big fat noses out of our personal lives.

Let's make something clear: I do not care whether or not you agree with me on ANY subject, and certainly not on this one!

We both know we can find lots of information on the web, and that a lot of that information will be "dramatized" to fit the need of the extreme pro-life people.

Why a breech abortion. . .because it is a lot easier to remove a foetus that may be between 8 oz and 14 oz in size from the natural birth canal (yes, it is not a "full size, 8 lbs or more baby!), then it is to cut a woman open, risk infection, long recovery, etc. . . Larger, more mature foetus would obviously be removed through caesarean.

I think it is wonderful that you have your opinion, and that you expressed it. I have my own opinion, and I express it when I want to. I do not expect you to agree with me, and I do not agree with you.

The fact that you do not believe my "numbers" is immaterial. . .they are not MY numbers, they are statistical numbers provided by Wikepedia. . . Why would I believe numberst that come form a obviously biased source?

I believe I have said all I want to say on this subject at this time, as we have covered both your and my opinions, your and my set of references, and we are now going in circle. So, have a nice evening.

 

[Pandora]

Let's make something clear: I do not care whether or not you agree with me on ANY subject, and certainly not on this one!

We both know we can find lots of information on the web, and that a lot of that information will be "dramatized" to fit the need of the extreme pro-life people.

Why a breech abortion. . .because it is a lot easier to remove a foetus that may be between 8 oz and 14 oz in size from the natural birth canal (yes, it is not a "full size, 8 lbs or more baby!), then it is to cut a woman open, risk infection, long recovery, etc. . . Larger, more mature foetus would obviously be removed through caesarean.

I think it is wonderful that you have your opinion, and that you expressed it. I have my own opinion, and I express it when I want to. I do not expect you to agree with me, and I do not agree with you.

The fact that you do not believe my "numbers" is immaterial. . .they are not MY numbers, they are statistical numbers provided by Wikepedia. . . Why would I believe numberst that come form a obviously biased source?

I believe I have said all I want to say on this subject at this time, as we have covered both your and my opinions, your and my set of references, and we are now going in circle. So, have a nice evening.

I take it you are done with this topic?

Dang and I was hoping you could explain why they have to hold the baby's head in the woman and stab the baby in the head, making sure it is dead before letting it come all the way out. I guess my mind isn't going to get changed today.

I sure do not know where you got the idea that forcing a breech delivery is ever safer than a natural birth or a c section but since you are done with this topic, the world will never know