Is This Who We Really Are?

[BigRob]

Isn't that [buy insurance early] what everybody is supposed to do now?

Not if it is run off your parents, then through school, then through your job. You would be in your twenties before getting your own plan.

And who is responsible for tying health insurance to employers? Congress.

So? That does not mean they cannot end it.

 

[Pidgey]

well, i didn't call anyone any names, and the suggestion, quoted in the op from the senator, to wit:

he told her that her neighbors should be the ones helping. That brought a reaction from the crowd, a round of applause.

does make it appear that the crowd liked the idea of the neighbors helping in that situation.

Neighbors doing brain surgery may be a slight exaggeration (humor is based on exaggeration, you know) but it isn't too far from what was being applauded, now is it?

Oh, yes, humor also depends on being grounded, at least partly, in reality.

What, exactly, did you visualize the neighbors doing to help this couple?

Having a car wash?

This kind of crap really chaps me sometimes...

Okay, Dr. Coburn's actual answer taken word-for-word from the video:

"Well, I think... first of all, yeah, we'll help. Uh... the first thing we'll do is see what we can do individually to help you... uh... through our office... uh.. but the other thing that's missing in this debate is us as neighbors helping people that need our help. You know, we... we tend to... the idea that the government is the solution to our problems is an inaccurate... a very inaccurate statement. The government... "

They cut off whatever else he said.

I'll make a short comment about the slight hemming and hawing exhibited: I've frankly come to have severe distrust for politicians whose extemporaneous speaking skills are too good. TOO slick oft occurs for a reason.

So, where, exactly, in there did he say that "her neighbors should be the ones helping"? I'll let the rednecks-doing-"brain surgery"-quip pass for the moment but my interpretation is that a lot of what he was talking about with helping was the home stuff or even with the more basic care of the fellow at this point.

Dr. Coburn IS capable of looking into the case and making some kind of medical determination of what the prognosis actually is, what's medically possible, or not...

And I have a good measure of faith in him that he'll give it a worthy shot, so let's stand back and give him his chance, shall we, BEFORE WE CRUCIFY HIM FOR NOT BEING A BLOOD-SUCKING LAWYER LIKE THE BULK OF THE REST OF THEM IN WASHINGTON!

Back to the patient. Brain trauma. Hmm... that can cover a lot, so what the bloody h*ll are your assumptions, anyhow? Are you people dimwitted enough to assume that "if only he had DECENT health insurance" that he could be... FIXED? CURED? Does ANYONE have ANY facts about this particular case? YET?!?

Or are you sorry, rotten, snivelling, miserable pieces of crap going to twist this to push your agenda, the bulk of the details of which YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A FRICKING CLUE ABOUT--of how the actual, codified legislation that will come of it will be reduced to practice and what the ultimate impact of that will be? No. You don't.

I'm sorry for getting upset, but I'm not sorry for why I did.

A lurking intimation in this little debate has been an accusation of stupidity of Oklahomans and probably the wider region of "rednecks". If we're so d@mn bad, then why haven't we been as badly impacted with the current financial crisis as so many of the hardcore blue states? Yes, we've got our problems here, but nowhere near the magnitude of a lot of you.

And, Greco... if you're so disenchanted with Oklahoma, why don't you move your sorry *** out to California or someplace like it where you belong? Goodness knows you'll be a lot happier and SO WILL WE!

I'm probably going to pay for this little rant in spades but... D@MN, IT FELT GOOD!

 

[Greco]

"Are you people dimwitted enough to assume that "if only he had DECENT health insurance" that he could be... FIXED? CURED? Does ANYONE have ANY facts about this particular case? YET?!?"

No, nobody suggested that. Just some dimwit that made up that claim so he could feel good about himself arguing against his own made up suggestion.

Your post is full of derrogatory name calling. Life's experience has generally revealed that those that are only capable of dialog such as that, usually do it to bolster issues with themselves, and try to raise their sense of self-esteem.

Since you seem to be of the mindset than anyone that disagrees with you should not be tolerated or allowed to live where you do, perhaps you'd be happier in Iran.

By the way, as a candidate Tom Coburn stated that anyone that's performed an abortion should be given the death penalty. He's previously performed an abortion but he's never clarified whether he feels he should be exempt. He also said, "Lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom." It was looney. It was also totally false.

 

[PLC1]

This bill (and HR 2520 as well) set up an insurance exchange in the private market. It eliminates Federal regulations that do not allow insurance companies to sell across state lines. It gives tax cuts to individuals to buy their own insurance from these companies that would be made to actually compete.

The idea is to buy health insurance early in life (on your own with tax cuts) before most people would have a pre-existing condition. That way if you lose your job, you are still covered, if you move, still covered.

Can there be someone that might fall through the cracks? Sure. However, this plan offers a chance for private market reform that would eliminate the problem of pre-existing conditions for most people.

Of those with pre-existing conditions, they still can qualify under Medicare and Medicaid for help to help with those problems. The bill also brings backs and reforms health care savings accounts, as well as offers low-income assistance for healthcare purchasing.

Obviously the plan is not perfect, but I think it is much better than HR 3200 and the Kennedy proposal that is coming out of the Senate.

The Bill can be found here.

Hmmm... a second proposal. I wonder if we'll start hearing hype, half truths, and outright lies about this one as well, or will its actual content be debated and discussed? I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Pidgey]

"Are you people dimwitted enough to assume that "if only he had DECENT health insurance" that he could be... FIXED? CURED? Does ANYONE have ANY facts about this particular case? YET?!?"

No, nobody suggested that. Just some dimwit that made up that claim so he could feel good about himself arguing against his own made up suggestion.

Your post is full of derrogatory name calling. Life's experience has generally revealed that those that are only capable of dialog such as that, usually do it to bolster issues with themselves, and try to raise their sense of self-esteem.

Since you seem to be of the mindset than anyone that disagrees with you should not be tolerated or allowed to live where you do, perhaps you'd be happier in Iran.

By the way, as a candidate Tom Coburn stated that anyone that's performed an abortion should be given the death penalty. He's previously performed an abortion but he's never clarified whether he feels he should be exempt. He also said, "Lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom." It was looney. It was also totally false.

Don't wanna' leave, huh?

Yep, you're right. I DID get a little derogatory (that's spelled with just one "r" up front, by the way). You don't really think that limiting oneself to the King's English makes one ALWAYS correct or benign... do you? Are you, Greco, COMPLETELY innocent of the crime of judging others harshly, acidly or unjustly in all of your posts here? You're the very flower of grace, the fount of The Milk of Human Kindness, are you? Shall I seek a conjurer to channel Diogenes to come and take a look? Afterall... YOU posted this thread with its title specifically worded to... what... intimate that we're evolving (psychologically and behaviorally) upward? IF that was the case, I do indeed apologize my dear ?fellow? for not reading more closely... But methinks that wasn't the case. Call it a hunch.

I'm not of that mindset at all--I just haven't seen anyone here dredge up any actual text and worthy commentary of the proposed legislation as it would be reduced to practice. I don't mind a reasonable debate about it, but as we say 'roun' heah' (in redneck country): "money talks, bullsh*t walks," which is to say y'all COULD try a little less sneering attitude and a little more forensic examination of what it is that you're debating. All of you.

For instance, let's do a little more forensic analysis on that Coburn "lesbianism" comment. A somewhat diligent search turned up a few webpages that contained this paragraph:

"In the tape released by the campaign of Brad Carson, the Democratic candidate, Coburn says a campaign worker from Coalgate told him that "lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom." ("at a time" is probably implied there at the last)

So... you're... saying that Coburn came to this conclusion all on his own... or had you not done your due diligence and confirmed that he was quoting somebody else? And... do we know what discussion bracketed this comment?

 

[Bunz]

Please point one out... I've yet to see even one.

I hear it all the time in some form or another. Although in fairness I have heard some against what is being proposed, but still for some kind of reform. Generally without any form of counter proposal. Now I might be wrong, but Rob bringing out the counter bill was the second time I had ever heard of it.

Other than that it has been a collective meltdown. A media frenzy, a hyped up public, emotional and sometimes intense town hall meetings. All of this hoopla over healthcare. For the folks who dont qualify for government or other assistance and those who care about them and the overall health and quality of life in America are thinking to themselves... it is about time!

The opposition to that is screaming loudly that this is the end times of America! The great red scare coming back! Pelosi is a *****!
Our President is a non American, Muslim that has been brainwashed by ALQ since birth! He smokes crack and plays dice in Chi-town with Rev Wright and Bill Ayers with Blago as his loan shark. He gets his mistresses lined up from that Dirty Cheating Liberal Mark Sanford!

OK, sorry I had fun with that little rant. I hope it makes at least Seneca laugh.

Back on topic: I will end this post by saying I find it notable the same party that ran around and cried wolf about WMDs and the threat of Iraq, who spent a few hundred billion chasing that shadow, are screaming and whining about ensuring thier neighbors and family members, and often times thier co-workers cant afford thier health care. They dont want a nickel of thier taxes going to ensure a lady doesnt lose everything because she cant afford the health care her husband gravely needs.

 

[Greco]

You make up assertions, assign them to someone else, then argue against them. If you repeat a claim, even an absurd one, or a lie, you're transmitting the message. Kind of like what Republicans frequently do with "death panel" claims.

So you don't want to join the Talibangicals in Iran, hun?

 

[Bunz]

Their "massive profits" account for a whopping 0.6% of what we spend on healthcare and the CEO's pay is a staggering 0.05% of the total HC spending.

Could you explain further how that figure is made? Is that .6 of ALL health expenditures? Including what? One thing that I do know is that the private health insurers have higher administrative costs, a hefty advertising budget and are potentially volatile in the stockmarket. This fact alone, and adding in that premiums and deductibles are subject to change at more or less any given time, as well as overhead limits, then this doesnt cover everything.
Throw in incidentals, and whatever the share the patient pays sometimes %20 still. Sometimes more for dental, vision, and a bunch of other specialists.

The Public Option, where the only thing that stands between you and your doctor is an unelected, unaccountable Washington bureaucrat...

Who wouldn't prefer that?

When it comes to an issue like this, and considering that I and half of my family get government health care, and have for all our lives. I was born in a Native Hospital, I have had most of my health care provided in some form of Government hospital or clinic. Overall, it hasnt been perfect, but I have been more than satisfied.
When it comes to my experiences, I have had a good selection of providers, quick appointment turnarounds(generally same day) and an overall comprehensive continuity of care.
So, lets say that I wake up sick one day. I call into the hospital, I get an appt the same day with the provider that I have chosen. I can get any prescriptions, and schedule any other appointments or see other providers as scheduled all at the same place. With decent parking, and pretty good customer service. Then when it comes time to leave, and go home, I do just that. I concern myself with my health, and dont have to stress myself or my family with how to make ends meet because one of us racked up 6 digits worth of bills. I pay my medical bills through my taxes. Plain and simple.

Then, keep in mind my Father, who I mentioned earlier and I will address his consistent nightmare with health insurance companies further there.

 

[Pidgey]

So you don't want to join the Talibangicals in Iran, hun?

Who are you calling "hun"?

 

[Bunz]

He was of sound mind when he chose that policy?

I would hope so, its the employer plan. His $4k is still his share of the bill after his insurance. He was also made to jump through a bunch of different referrals, and consultations and then had to wait until the insurance company decided they should allow the surgery or face a lawsuit.

With a high deductible like that I am sure he saved a ton on his premiums. Did he save it for a rainy day? After all, at his age he knew he was going to have some kind of expense, right?

He is lucky to even get coverage. He has a bad back and shoulder from previous injuries working for decades on fishing boats and the pipeline.
He has known he needed shoulder surgery for a year. It took that long to get approval.

Perhaps he was too poor to save the money after his living expenses. You are his son and you love him right?

He certainly is not a rich man. That is the problem in rural Alaska. Wages are generally higher because of various COLA allowances due to the often unimaginable costs of vital goods. So we generally dont qualify for such programs. But are living nearly paycheck to paycheck. An planned expense of a few thousand dollars makes for potentially lean and cold times.

 

[Bunz]

Greco and Pidgey, please behave yourselves.

 

[BigRob]

Hmmm... a second proposal. I wonder if we'll start hearing hype, half truths, and outright lies about this one as well, or will its actual content be debated and discussed? I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

I doubt we will hear anything about HR 2520 or S. 1099. They were both introduced in May, and to date, no one has cared enough to take a look. Most likely because there is no chance Democrats allow a Republican bill to be the "healthcare reform."

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I doubt we will hear anything about HR 2520 or S. 1099. They were both introduced in May, and to date, no one has cared enough to take a look. Most likely because there is no chance Democrats allow a Republican bill to be the "healthcare reform."

Or it just covers what the others have established in the larger bill and it would be repetitious to keep both bills on the table!

Have you looked at it, {I didn't know anything about it either}...not that I spend my time scrolling through the current bills that are pending, my chores/mowing/gardening/housekeeping/elder care/mother and volunteer work keep be pretty busy!

 

[Dr.Who]

If that was true then why would we have federal funded agencies such as: HUD, HHS, Soc.Sec.A., VA, Medicare, Medicaid, CIA, FBI, etc., etc., etc.,

Some of those programs are clearly constitutionally authorized, like the FBI whose purpose is to protect the rights of citizens.

Here is where you really, really loose touch with reality and I leave you standing in your own quicksand!

I said even the poorest Americans are swimming in wealth and you said that was quicksand. But the National census says:

Let's look at housing. Forty-one percent of the poor actually own their own homes, typically a three-bedroom house with one-and-one-half baths. It is in good repair, and has a garage or carport, and a porch or patio. The median value of these homes is $65,000, which is 70 percent of the median value of all American homes.

Americans, poor and non-poor, live in large and spacious housing. Only 2 percent of America's poor are overcrowded (defined as living with more than 1.5 persons per room). On average, America's poor have 440 square feet of living space per person. This is more than the average citizen in Paris, Berlin, and London; nearly three times the average in the capitals of such nations as Poland and Mexico; and nearly seven times greater than the average in poor nations such as China and India.

Modern conveniences are commonplace-and some nearly ubiquitous-among America's poor. About 70 percent of poor households own a car or truck, and more than a quarter own two or more cars. Two-thirds of the poor have air conditioning, and a similar number have microwaves. Nearly half of all poor households own two or more color television sets. Almost three-quarters of the poor now have VCRs.

Then there is the matter of hunger. Advocates tell us that 35 million Americans live in its grip. But government surveys don't bear this out.

Asked if they have enough food to eat, 96 percent of Americans answer yes.

The surveys also show that the diets of the poor and those of the middle class have a similar nutritional content. Poor children and middle-class children consume almost identical amounts of protein, vitamins, and minerals, in most cases well above recommended norms.

In truly poor countries, malnutrition keeps children from growing. The World Health Organization finds that 39 percent of children in Africa, and 47 percent of those in Asia, are stunted. Only 2.7 percent of poor American children fall below this low-height threshold-the normal level one would expect, given ordinary genetic variation.

The poor do, however, suffer from one major nutrition-related health problem: obesity.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_20_51/ai_56220678/

 

[Dr.Who]

Not if it is run off your parents, then through school, then through your job. You would be in your twenties before getting your own plan.

Let me rephrase that'

"Isn't everyone supposed to have insurance early."

It really does not matter where the insurance comes from if a person has it then whatever condition they come down with is not a pre-existing condition.

So? That does not mean they cannot end it.

Apparently congress is incapable of untying insurance from the employer. I understand that McCain ran that as part of his platform. And there is no way the present admin will end that provision. So for now congress is to blame.