Iran test-fires missiles in Persian Gulf

Surely both Iran and Isreal are bluffing. Any attack on one will mean an attack on the other. If they used atomic weapons they could not avoid affective their neighbous
Iran has a long and glorious history as the Persian Empire. It has gained an ally in the new government of Iraq thanks to the USA.

If has little to lose by calling Israel and the USA bluff. But do not be so sure they are bluffing. Remember Japan threaten to bomb Pearl Harbour. The Usa thought they were bluffing and look at the result.
Arab terrorist had already bomb the World Trade Centre. September 11 was an important day in protests against the USA over Chile.
But the USA did not belived the Arabs would attack.
It is better to prepare for an attack even if you do not think it will happen.
However negatiations are necessary first.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
Uhhhhhhhh, we could move those tankers, and if I were in charge of the defense department, they'd never get the chance.

Now that's just laughable
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No rebuttal? Not surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
If the iranian people don't remove the present dictatorship, they can expect bad consequences - just like hitler and the germans. Flattening that country, the worst worldwide supporter of isamlofascism, would go immensely far in improving the world. You give no reasons for claiming it will trigger war, and there really aren't any.

Let's kill off all of the Iranians, then, in order to put an end to their dictatorship. It's there fault, after all, that they have such a government and haven't risen up against it.

Ah, gave up on the "trigger war" scenario? :) The destruction would be of their infrastaructure and war-making capacity. Lots of people would be killed, but they aren't the target per se. The situation is like WWII, which we WON, remember? Unlike the PC vietnam war, unlike (so far) the PC iraq war.

Are we also to blame for the current regime in Washington? I say we are, as we did vote them in.

Riiiiiiiiiiight - George Bush is like the islamofascist iranian regime. :D
 
.

No rebuttal? Not surprised.

Didn't respond to the entire quote? I'm not surprised. There was a question there, I believe.

Ah, gave up on the "trigger war" scenario? :) The destruction would be of their infrastaructure and war-making capacity. Lots of people would be killed, but they aren't the target per se. The situation is like WWII, which we WON, remember? Unlike the PC vietnam war, unlike (so far) the PC iraq war.

Their "war making capacity" is so much less than that of any of the modern nations as to be laughable. There is simply no need to kill off millions of innocent people in order to destroy their so called war making capacity. Their real strength is having a significant portion of the world's oil supply, and the ability to disrupt it rather easily. If we really want to take power away from Iran, then the way to do it is to find a practical way to become energy independent.

Riiiiiiiiiiight - George Bush is like the islamofascist iranian regime. :D

There are differences, of course. For one thing, we elected him and his entourage. For another, he will be out of office by the end of the year. The Iranians are stuck with Amindeedajerk and the ruling mullahs for the foreseeable future.
 
Hey PLC1,

If I can draw you away from your fascinating exchange with libsmasher, how do you think we should best address our problems with Iran and prevent them from obtaining Nuclear weapons?

Sanctions are becoming less effective because Iran is making huge deals with neighbors and allies, including Mother Russia (Mom to Democrats). This makes our diplomatic efforts less and less fruitless.

Diplomacy with Iran has never stopped, despite the widespread belief that Bush doesn't try, and also never produced any appreciable results - not that we should stop trying diplomacy, but Iran needs to feel pressure before they make any concessions.

UN is worthless, most of the member countries are puppet democracies run by theocratic regimes or socialist dictators. They can bluster and talk and pass toothless resolutions but they REFUSE to act on anything with military force. (Darfur for example)

I don't know the answer, as if there is one single answer to such a complex problem, but its far more complicated than some people make it out to be, and no I'm not suggesting you're one of them. I'm asking you about this because I think you are one of the few who understand the complexities and might have some relevant input on the subject. Thanks.
 
"Uhhhhhhhh, we could move those tankers, and if I were in charge of the defense department, they'd never get the chance. "

Libsmasher...here is your Rebutal....

HOW?

I want a detailed response on what you would do. Saying I would just do it, or I would just blow there ships up, is not a explanation. Lets see you go my "Defense Department"
 
I want a detailed response on what you would do.

I would like to extend my question to PLC1 to you as well. You do a great deal of badmouthing other peoples ideas but present nothing of your own for undergoing criticism. Here's your chance to impress me by showing you have a clear understanding of the complex situation that exists, any idiot can say what the answer "isn't" its time for you to put it on the line and tell us what you think the answer "is" - hopefully without debating the definition of the word "is".
 
Hey PLC1,

If I can draw you away from your fascinating exchange with libsmasher, how do you think we should best address our problems with Iran and prevent them from obtaining Nuclear weapons?

Sanctions are becoming less effective because Iran is making huge deals with neighbors and allies, including Mother Russia (Mom to Democrats). This makes our diplomatic efforts less and less fruitless.

Diplomacy with Iran has never stopped, despite the widespread belief that Bush doesn't try, and also never produced any appreciable results - not that we should stop trying diplomacy, but Iran needs to feel pressure before they make any concessions.

UN is worthless, most of the member countries are puppet democracies run by theocratic regimes or socialist dictators. They can bluster and talk and pass toothless resolutions but they REFUSE to act on anything with military force. (Darfur for example)

I don't know the answer, as if there is one single answer to such a complex problem, but its far more complicated than some people make it out to be, and no I'm not suggesting you're one of them. I'm asking you about this because I think you are one of the few who understand the complexities and might have some relevant input on the subject. Thanks.

Well, it is a lot easier to debate Libsmasher than it is to some up with a solution to the problem of Iraq. You're absolutely correct that it is a complex problem, and has no simplistic answer that is going to work.

For one thing, we need to leave no stone unturned in the quest for energy independence. The government of Iran has us by the short hairs so long as we're dependent on the Middle East for oil.

Then, we need to understand that the people of Iran are not the enemy.

For another, we need to realize that I'mindeedajerk is not the dictator of Iran. We need to be talking to the real powers, which means the mullahs in Iran.

Then, we need to realize just why it is that they want to have nuclear weapons. Hint: It is not because their nutcase PM wants to annihilate Israel. It has a lot more to do with nationalism and the fear of invasion by the west.

And, we need to get out of Iraq just as soon as we can do so without Iran or some other power coming in and taking advantage of the power vacuum. I think we're getting pretty close.

And, the neoconservative idea of extending a pax Americana to the rest of the world is unworkable, impractical, and simply a bad idea. It needs to be abandoned.

And, then, Obama is correct about one thing: Talking to Iran is a good idea. Anyone can talk to friends. Talking to enemies is just a tad more difficult, but it has to be done.

Finally, ideology isn't going to solve the problem. It will take pragmatism.
 
I would like to extend my question to PLC1 to you as well. You do a great deal of badmouthing other peoples ideas but present nothing of your own for undergoing criticism. Here's your chance to impress me by showing you have a clear understanding of the complex situation that exists, any idiot can say what the answer "isn't" its time for you to put it on the line and tell us what you think the answer "is" - hopefully without debating the definition of the word "is".

first nice lame 1990's Clinton joke...its 2008

First the biggest thing we have to do it talk to Iran. No trying to act like they are not there or that we can somehow ignore them. Its one of most powerful nations in the middle east, and has a large and growin spear influence, and to ignore this is childish. We could talk to the USSR, we are now huge trading partners with China...but talk about talking to Iran is called appeasing. Hitting diplomacy hard, and at lower levels of government, getting support or at least making clear our real position, to less ideological members of the government threw both back channels and lower level meetings. This would be expanded from the talks that we have had with Iraq regrading the Security or Iraq, and the Iran and the US provided each other with Intel in the fight against Afghanistan, where both sides had reason to gain. SO much is made about Aminnejad, but the fact is its very likely not to far out, he will not be in power anymore, nor is he even the real leader of Iran today.

2. Working harder to get the US message that we only wish to stop the spread of Nuclear weapons gets to as many people as we can in Iran...The fact that many don't seem to know, or choose to ignore, is that the population of Iran is very young, and has been far more pro American then any other nation in the middle east. On Sept 11, people in Iran where in the streets with American flags....not burning them but showing support and sorrow for what had happened. They did this in defence of Iran's leadership. Its is this large and growing movement that we must use to help put pressure on its leaders to end any plans for Nukes, and to work for a peaceful goal and a end to sanctions. Support for the goal of a non nuclear Iran, pushed by the UN, ( Russia being a very key member needed to push this) and the internal push as well must be enough to make the possible benefits worth while.

3.The current tone of talk form the US to Iran, and back has been far far to much stick, and no carrot. Hyberbol like Clinton talking about whipping Iran of the map, and Bush's Axis of Evil ext talk does very little to help, and only serves to amp up the other sides talk as well. Also Clinton's Wipe Iran of the Map , is perfect propaganda for Iran to show its people that Iran the US truly is the enemy and that it is not them who is putting them in this situation. Again , while not a true Democracy by any means, the people of Iran hold much more power then just about any other middle eastern nation. With tone also comes actions that set tone, such as the joint exercise performed by the US and Israel , that was clearly meant as a single to Iran...Iran in return Fired off test missiles to show it would respond ( most likely against US troops in Iraq, and or Israel) This kind of action makes it harder for Iran to back down and save face , thus only provokes them to lash more and less ready to talk. Iran is a nation that while holding relatively smaller power in the world today, still sees itself with great pride, taken from the Persian Empire one must take into account the personality if you will of the nation when it deals with it. In order to reach our goals, we must be willing to accept that in order for us to win, we need to give Iran something that lets them tell its people it won. Also we must make it clear that the US Respects Iran's Right to Nuclear Power.

4. Military action. I would keep the 2nd Carrier group rotating in the Gulf area as a show of force, but not one that makes headlines..but one Iran's leadership will see. I would redouble efforts to watch the Iran Iraq Border and try to find informants if at all possible. The simple fact is, that any attack at all on Iran, means that the United States must be prepared to deal with the reaction or Iran. And when Iran reacts, say hits US troops in Iraq, directly, or indirectly, or it hits Oil interests around the middle east, or it fires back at the US navy with silkworms, and some of of there new weapons....how do we react to the reaction? And the US can not just hope Israel would do it for us for 2 reasons. 1 we take the blame anyway. 2, Israel does not have the firepower to unload the heavy bombing that would be needed at that distance without putting all of its refueling planes in harms way.( I dont have it with me, but the Book, the Persian Puzzle had some good work on this, as well as GlobalSecurity.org) Also Ground troops are not ready in case we needed them , as stated by every US General when asked. Iraq is to much of a drain, and would have to have troop levels moved back a lot in order to have a real force on hand to put into action. Also targets would have to be hit before going active in many cases, in order to keep fallout from effecting large areas of Civilian areas. The attack would most likely at least cause Iran to beef up its defense even more, and efforts to get nukes in some for, be it lose nukes from the USSR, or help from Pakistan. It would also increase funding to Hezbollah try to hit US targets . the effects of these attacks could further Cripple the US Economy, while attacks on Iran's Facilities would have little real effect on there's.

If it came down to a strike , as all diplomacy had failed and there was no reason to believe change was going to happen. I would only do so knowing that Full scale war was possible from such a attack, and that the US was Able to deal with such a burden that would not put its long term Security economically and Military at more risk then the threat justified.
 
Well, it is a lot easier to debate Libsmasher than it is to some up with a solution to the problem of Iraq. You're absolutely correct that it is a complex problem, and has no simplistic answer that is going to work.

I appreciate that you answer and find it frustrating that everyone can criticize but not everyone is willing to risk their own theories to be scrutinized.

For one thing, we need to leave no stone unturned in the quest for energy independence. The government of Iran has us by the short hairs so long as we're dependent on the Middle East for oil.

I totally agree with that but short of BUYING American's new cars, house hold appliances and home heating units, it will be a slow process that takes a great deal of time.

Then, we need to understand that the people of Iran are not the enemy.

Do you mean not all, or do you really mean NONE of the Iranian population is outright hostile towards America and Israel, wishing us both to be "wiped off the map"? Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs are not chanting "Death to Israel, Death to America" all alone in front of the cameras, there are legions of supporters there too. I see this as a problem that should be recognized and addressed.

For another, we need to realize that I'mindeedajerk is not the dictator of Iran. We need to be talking to the real powers, which means the mullahs in Iran.

In what way do you mean? We do talk to them but because they have so many outstanding UN, Human and Civil Rights violations, we don't want to speak with them directly and without the pre-conditions that they institute much needed reform to comply with International standards.

Then, we need to realize just why it is that they want to have nuclear weapons. Hint: It is not because their nutcase PM wants to annihilate Israel. It has a lot more to do with nationalism and the fear of invasion by the west.

What??? If Iran completely disarmed and stopped it saber rattling... would it EVER have to worry about a US invasion? No, we don't mess with peaceful countries. Make no mistake, we are the "Big Satan" and Ahmadinejad is a nutcase who thinks he is here to bring about the 12th mahdi (judgement day).

Its on Youtube if you would like to see it... Ahmadinejad talking about provoking the great Satan, thats us, by killing the little Satan, Israel, to bring about the end times... And yet, people think the Evangelicals in the US are the "dangerous" religious zealots threatening America.

And, we need to get out of Iraq just as soon as we can do so without Iran or some other power coming in and taking advantage of the power vacuum. I think we're getting pretty close.

I agree and yes we are.

And, the neoconservative idea of extending a pax Americana to the rest of the world is unworkable, impractical, and simply a bad idea. It needs to be abandoned.

Uh... I hope that just hyperbole. I don't know that its being advanced, much less followed, and would suggest its long since been abandoned.

And, then, Obama is correct about one thing: Talking to Iran is a good idea. Anyone can talk to friends. Talking to enemies is just a tad more difficult, but it has to be done.

As I stated above, there are very legitimate reasons we do NOT sit down with Iran directly. Obama has waffled on whether or not we should set preconditions for talks and I thinks its horribly naive and dangerous to have direct talks without Iran meeting at least SOME of their International Obligations.

Finally, ideology isn't going to solve the problem. It will take pragmatism.

If history teaches us anything, this will not be settled peacefully - no matter who's POTUS.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
Ah, gave up on the "trigger war" scenario? The destruction would be of their infrastaructure and war-making capacity. Lots of people would be killed, but they aren't the target per se. The situation is like WWII, which we WON, remember? Unlike the PC vietnam war, unlike (so far) the PC iraq war.

Their "war making capacity" is so much less than that of any of the modern nations as to be laughable.

Yaaaaaaaa -- long range missile and soon enough nuke warheads for them, as well as millions of men that can be conscripted and sent off to war by the mullahs. You'll pardon the israelis and others in the region if they don't get the joke.


There is simply no need to kill off millions of innocent people in order to destroy their so called war making capacity.

Nonsense - the war making capacity, broadly construed, includes factories, government offices, power generating plants, dams, transportation hubs, military installations, bridges etc etc etc - all imply destroying cities - just like WWII.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
Riiiiiiiiiiight - George Bush is like the islamofascist iranian regime.

There are differences, of course.

No serious arguments from this fellow, folks - move along.
 
"Uhhhhhhhh, we could move those tankers, and if I were in charge of the defense department, they'd never get the chance. "

Libsmasher...here is your Rebutal....

HOW?

I want a detailed response on what you would do. Saying I would just do it, or I would just blow there ships up, is not a explanation. Lets see you go my "Defense Department"

Uh, duhhhhhhh - float them and then tow them away? It's all in your Quantum Mechanics book on page 300. :D :rolleyes:
 
I appreciate that you answer and find it frustrating that everyone can criticize but not everyone is willing to risk their own theories to be scrutinized.



I totally agree with that but short of BUYING American's new cars, house hold appliances and home heating units, it will be a slow process that takes a great deal of time.

Yes, energy independence is a difficult and complex process, and will take some time. The sooner we get started, the sooner we will finish. We should have started during the OPEC oil embargo, and would have had we not been short sighted.

Do you mean not all, or do you really mean NONE of the Iranian population is outright hostile towards America and Israel, wishing us both to be "wiped off the map"? Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs are not chanting "Death to Israel, Death to America" all alone in front of the cameras, there are legions of supporters there too. I see this as a problem that should be recognized and addressed.

I mean in general. I'd be willing to bet that an honest and open poll, the kind we have in the west, would show Ahmadinajad's level of support lower than that of our current POTUS, maybe even lower than that of the current Congress. Of course, there will always be some who support any leader, no matter how nutty.


In what way do you mean? We do talk to them but because they have so many outstanding UN, Human and Civil Rights violations, we don't want to speak with them directly and without the pre-conditions that they institute much needed reform to comply with International standards.

We no longer have the moral high ground when it comes to human rights violations, anyway, but yes, we do need to talk to our enemies. We need to be ready to talk tough, maybe, but we do need to talk. We talked to the Soviet Union during the days of MAD, didn't we? Is the government of Iran so evil and despicable that we can't even talk to them for fear of contamination or something? That position is pretty difficult to support.

What??? If Iran completely disarmed and stopped it saber rattling... would it EVER have to worry about a US invasion? No, we don't mess with peaceful countries. Make no mistake, we are the "Big Satan" and Ahmadinejad is a nutcase who thinks he is here to bring about the 12th mahdi (judgement day).

Iraq disarmed, at least, got rid of its weapons of mass destruction, and didn't have an army capable of taking on anything more threatening than the local Brownie troop. The US has a history of invading other nations, sometimes in order to protect our interests, sometimes not.

Are you seriously suggesting that we tell the Iranians to just go ahead and lay down their arms and just trust us?:eek: Are they to trust their neighbors as well?



Its on Youtube if you would like to see it... Ahmadinejad talking about provoking the great Satan, thats us, by killing the little Satan, Israel, to bring about the end times... And yet, people think the Evangelicals in the US are the "dangerous" religious zealots threatening America.

Yes, ahmadinajad is a loudmouth, no doubt about it. He still doesn't have the real power in his own country. We'd be far better off to ignore most of his hype and rhetoric, and deal with the real power, which rests in the church.




Uh... I hope that just hyperbole. I don't know that its being advanced, much less followed, and would suggest its long since been abandoned.

I hope it has been abandoned. It is the very philosophy that got us involved in the nation building experiment in Iraq.

As I stated above, there are very legitimate reasons we do NOT sit down with Iran directly. Obama has waffled on whether or not we should set preconditions for talks and I thinks its horribly naive and dangerous to have direct talks without Iran meeting at least SOME of their International Obligations.

Do you think we should use a mediator, a disinterested third party to help diffuse tensions? That has some merit. Who would it be?

If history teaches us anything, this will not be settled peacefully - no matter who's POTUS.

Well, we did manage to get through many years of cold war without coming to military blows with the Soviets. Maybe, just maybe, if cool heads prevail on both sides, a major war can be averted and millions of lives and trillions of dollars saved. It's worth every effort we can muster to bring about such an ending, don't you think?
 
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I mean in general. I'd be willing to bet that an honest and open poll, the kind we have in the west, would show Ahmadinajad's level of support lower than that of our current POTUS, maybe even lower than that of the current Congress. Of course, there will always be some who support any leader, no matter how nutty.

His level of support doesn't matter - it's a DICTATORSHIP, einstein. :rolleyes:
 
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