In Defense of Capitalism & Free Markets

"Please, explain how nationalization will result in "free" energy."

It may not be free, but the outrageous profits won't go into the hands of corporate fatcats. And it could lower our tax rates.
 
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"Please, explain how nationalization will result in "free" energy."

It may not be free, but the outrageous profits won't go into the hands of corporate fatcats. And it could lower our tax rates.


How any American could think socialism is the answer to our energy problems or any problem, is beyond me. P-schools have done much damage...

No doubt you believe as our president believes...government control removes profits so it must be more efficient. Liberals really believe this...(this is craziness to any thinking person). It is so twisted and upside down, I don't know where to begin to debunk it...

Watch what happens to the student loan industry. Costs will skyrocket now the Uncle is in charge...but brain dead libs are blind...
 
How any American could think socialism is the answer to our energy problems or any problem, is beyond me. P-schools have done much damage...

No doubt you believe as our president believes...government control removes profits so it must be more efficient. Liberals really believe this...(this is craziness to any thinking person). It is so twisted and upside down, I don't know where to begin to debunk it...

Watch what happens to the student loan industry. Costs will skyrocket now the Uncle is in charge...but brain dead libs are blind...

Who said anything about socialism? Oh right. You did. Who said government can't make a profit? Perhaps that is a paradigm that needs changing, eh? I suspect that you don't know where to begin to debunk it because you have no idea how to go about doing it. Congratulations. ;)
 
It may not be free, but the outrageous profits won't go into the hands of corporate fatcats. And it could lower our tax rates.
Rogen claims to be against nationalization of industry but in posts like the one above he argues in defense of nationalization, so clearly Hugo Chavez is hacking Rogen's account.

Here was RoccoR's statement:

The US has to nationalize all Electrical Production and distribution....By providing huge quantities of electricity, the US can provide free power to all electric production facilities to cut overhead cost and provide a competitive advantage that no other nation can match.

He was not arguing that nationalization would reduce the cost of electricity but that the US could provide free electricity to all manufacturing facilities.

I want to hear a rational explanation of how that is possible.
 
GenSeneca, et al,

This is a consequence of the people's reinvestment in America, and then the return on that investment (ROI). Since, in some of these processes, the assets and liability transfers to the government, in essence the taxpayer becomes the shareholder.

Government making profit... That is an interesting concept, What do you propose?
(COMMENT)

There are all the components of capitalism (including risk). However the profit (ROI) is to offset maintenance and operating costs (O&M). The ROI materializes in several different ways, over time.

  • As the initial investment begins to generate jobs, more taxpayers are created. As taxpayers are created, the tax burden per constituent, begins to decline.
  • As more manufacturers increase, the revenue stream increases, helping to support project improvements and contribute to future debt escrow.
  • As debt declines, the ROI on federal bonds improves. As the ROI on bonds improves, they become more appreciated as a financial investment and venture capital begins to be generated.
All of these things don't happen as once, just as any new business doesn't turn a profit immediately. But it will steadily improve (that is the risk).

In capitalism, the greater the risk, the greater the rewards.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
There are all the components of capitalism
If by "all" you mean none, then you are correct.

Capitalism: an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Without private ownership, and/or control, and/or investment, and/or distribution, and/or profit, the system is no longer capitalist but something else.

I do hope that was not your explanation of how nationalization can enable industry to get free energy...
 
I'll offer my own suggestion for revitalizing the economy and it's simple:

2. Immediately Reduce Tax rates - Set the capital gains and progressive income tax at 15% across the board (flat tax) with no exemptions and completely eliminate the corporate tax.

That is something we could live with. A flat tax with no exemptions. Maybe when there is no deduction for children women will get abortions instead of having children. A little more poverty will not hurt families and the elderly. And, if it does, they can just get used to it.
 
GenSeneca, et al,

You're correct.
If by "all" you mean none, then you are correct.

Capitalism: an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Without private ownership, and/or control, and/or investment, and/or distribution, and/or profit, the system is no longer capitalist but something else.

I do hope that was not your explanation of how nationalization can enable industry to get free energy...
(COMMENT)

The nationalization of a utility industry, say like when I pay for water and sewer to the City, is not true capitalism. There are very few "pure" capitalist socieities in the world. So when I say "free," it is from the consumers perspective, like an employee discount. Because as you are driving at, there really is no such thing as "free power."

Natioanlization would work similarly to the way many utilities are run now, with a magisatrate (like in Bankruptcy) as oversight behalf of the people. The reason you have to generate so much more power, is simply the rule of supply and demand. As you increase the supply, well over 125% of CONUS demand, the price drops. Once you have the excess, supply-minus CONUS demand, then you sell it to the adjacent markets (Canada, Mexico, etc) for a market price in their respective regions; the same as you sell your home excess from your home generated power solar array or wind mill.

But it does create the proper environment for the creation of a competative advantage for capitalist production facilities.

Like I said earlier, my suggestion is not the only suggestion; may be even not the best solution. But it is a solution and would advance our abilities to improve production.

(SIDE-BAR)

On the issue of GDP comparison, I already knew that I didn't fully understand the chart, because it didn't match my research; depending on which source you use and the data set year. By GDP per Capita, the US is about 11th place (down from about 8th place in 2006) and Japan is much farther down the list using the CIA's 2009 estimates. But that was unimportant to the point I was trying to make and so, did not make an issue of it.​

(Capitalism & Free Markets)

Niether needs defended. The results are self-evident. The discussion becomes subjective when, inherent to these processes (Capitalism & Free Markets) there are winners and losers. If you're a winner, of course you are going to be more support of the system that brought you there. If you are a loser (and in Capitalism & Free Markets, there must always be losers), you will probably be less inclinded to support the system that fails you.

Capitalism & Free Markets are about money (as the Founders would say), and profits (as you say). But it is not about the health and welfare of the nation. The nation is only as healthy as the prospering people need it to be, to adiquately feed off of them. They cannot completely drain the cash cow (the middle calss) because that would end thier food source. So they have to give it something - to keep it alive - so as to continue the feed on something. Nothing in Capitalism & Free Markets is about the nation or its people. It is about money and profits for the individual.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Rogen on the nationalization of business:

It may not be free, but the outrageous profits won't go into the hands of corporate fatcats. And it could lower our tax rates.

Followed by Rogen commenting on a business owned and operated by government:

Kinda like the USPS, eh?

And the inevitable results of a government business:

Postal Service Urged to Weigh Three-Days-a-Week Mail
March 04, 2010

March 4 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Postal Service, facing a $238 billion budget deficit by 2020, should consider cutting delivery to as few as three days a week as the agency attempts to pare costs, a consulting firm said.

Sure is a good thing those outrageous profits aren't going into the hands of corporate fat cats... Just think how much lower our taxes are going to be! :rolleyes:
 
...is not true capitalism.
It's not Capitalism at all... Your operational definition of Capitalism seems to be: the exchange of currency for goods and/or services.

You seem to think any system that operates in that way can be considered some form of Capitalism but that is false.

The business offering the good and/or service must be privately owned AND Privately operated AND the profits as well as the investments must come from and go to private individuals AND the business products must be offered on a free market (free of government interference) in order for the system to be Capitalist.

Replace "Private" with "Public" on any of those and it's no longer Capitalism. Even with all those things being private but offered in a "mixed" market and not a free market, it's no longer Capitalism.


There are very few "pure" capitalist socieities in the world.
There are none... If there were a nation that limited it's government to the protection of individual rights and allowed a truly free market to operate, I would live there.

Because as you are driving at, there really is no such thing as "free power."
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Even if you were able to offer "free" energy, it would not be enough to offset the cost of labor and therefore would not provide the competitive advantage you hope to achieve.

Natioanlization would work similarly to the way many utilities are run now, with a magisatrate (like in Bankruptcy) as oversight behalf of the people.
Public utilities are currently operated by city governments, some of them operate at a profit and some of them at a deficit. Federal nationalization would dramatically affect the budgets of those cities. The ones who operate their utilities in the red would be handing off a failing business to the government and the ones who are making a profit would have to offset the losses from the others.

As you increase the supply, well over 125% of CONUS demand, the price drops.
Don't be so sure...

Successful Water Conservation May Lead To Rate Hike

BOULDER, Colo -- People in Boulder are so good at conserving water that the city may have to raise water rates to make up for it.

Utilities officials report that water usage is down to 1980s levels, in part because of conservation and in part because of an aggressive rate system that encourages reduced use and a wet spring and summer.

Because of the decreased use, water revenues are more than $1 million less than expected this year, and the Boulder City Council is considering a 3 percent rate increase.

It is a fundamental misunderstanding of supply and demand to think that increasing supply, or decreasing demand, will result in lower costs.

Once you have the excess, supply...sell it to the adjacent markets (Canada, Mexico, etc)
Mexican labor is much cheaper than American labor and Canada is already the United States’ largest and most secure supplier of oil, natural gas, electricity and uranium, so we won't be making any money selling them electricity.

But it does create the proper environment for the creation of a competative advantage for capitalist production facilities.
Government subsidized electricity would preclude use of the term "Capitalist" in your proposal and, as I have tried to point out above, nationalization would provide no competitive advantage.

Like I said earlier, my suggestion is not the only suggestion; may be even not the best solution. But it is a solution and would advance our abilities to improve production.
As I stated at the beginning, your "solution" would be counterproductive and only exacerbate whatever problems you are hoping to alleviate or solve.

(Capitalism & Free Markets)

Niether needs defended.
Clearly they do because there is a fundamental misunderstanding of both and it is evident in your posts.

(Capitalism & Free Markets) there are winners and losers.... (and in Capitalism & Free Markets, there must always be losers)
You have fallen victim to the fallacy of false analogy. While this analogy has not been explicitly stated, it is nevertheless the premise behind your conclusion.

you will probably be less inclinded to support the system that fails you.
The false analogy: Capitalism is like Gambling - in order for someone to win, others must lose. You are looking at wealth as a zero sum game, meaning that the poker chips on the table represent the total amount of wealth available and anyone who wins must do so at the expense of someone else. In reality, wealth (the poker chips) are unlimited and while it is true that some do lose, there does exist the possibility that everyone can win (profit).

A better, and almost perfect, analogy to Capitalism and Wealth would be Learning and Knowledge. In this analogy Capitalism and Learning are both the "system" while Wealth and Knowledge are the results. Both systems offer unlimited results.

Nobody had to become a blithering idiot (lose) in order for Einstein to become a brilliant genius (win). In fact, Einsteins "win" vastly improved the lives of every single individual on the planet and his contributions continue on long after his death - even in ways you may not realize.

The same is true for Larry Ellison, creator of the ORACLE software, and Bill Gates, creator of WINDOWS. These men have vastly improved your life and the lives of generations to come with their inventions and creations - even in ways you may not realize.

In all three examples, the "wins" of these men translated into a "win" for all of mankind, yet people extol Einstein for turning down millions in potential wealth and denounce the likes of Larry Ellison and Bill Gates for accumulating massive fortunes. All three men deserved to be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams for their contributions to the world.

Now as for someone blaming the Capitalist "system" for their failures, I have another example... Let's say you and 2 other people have final exams coming up in a month. You work the hardest of the group, dedicating much of your time to studying for the exam, the second guy works half as hard and the third guy blows it off entirely.

The exam comes, you all take the test, the results come back, you get an A, the second guy gets a C and the slacker gets an F. You getting an A did not require the slacker to get an F, in other words, for you to win did not require him to fail. It was not a problem with the system that caused the slacker to fail and it was not a failing of the system that caused the second guy to get a C. Each person received results (knowledge) consistent with the effort they put into they system (learning).

It would have been possible for all of you to get an A, all of you to get a C, or all of you to get an F. The "system" cannot be responsible for you getting an A, just as it cannot be responsible for your getting an F, only you can be responsible for the results.

Capitalism & Free Markets are about money ... not about the health and welfare of the nation... Nothing in Capitalism & Free Markets is about the nation or its people. It is about money and profits for the individual.
Einstein was seeking individual profit in the form of knowledge, his creations were the result of that knowledge, and that in turn improved the lives of not just this nation and our people but the lives of all mankind the world over.

The same is true of Bill Gates and Larry Ellison, it was their quest for individual profit that led to their creations and as a result of their knowledge, all of mankind profited.

Individual profit has been, and will continue to be, the single greatest cause of improvements to not only this nation and the American people, but to all of the world and mankind as a whole.
 
Capitalism as a political and social doctrine is respect for individual rights. Unlike the typical perception of Capitalism as total Anarchy, Capitalism requires a strong government that is strictly limited to its only moral, ethical and just purpose for existence; Protecting individual rights. This means protecting every individual from force and fraud.

Any social policy or system that violates individual rights is not Capitalism.

Free Markets are a necessary corollary to Capitalism as an economic system. Free Markets are free of; Government regulations, subsidies, bailouts, etc. The only limits placed on Free Markets in a Capitalist system are those that protect individuals from force and fraud.

Any Market policy or system that isn't limited to protecting individual rights, is not a Free Market.

When I have challenged people to defend their views in other threads, they immediately, and instinctively, chose instead to try to attack mine... As if that were a legitimate tactic which actually provided a defense of their positions. So here it is, your chance to attack my positions while I defend them.

I know there are plenty of Anti-Capitalists out there, eager to blame every conceivable ill of society on Capitalism and Free Markets, so here's your chance... Take your best shot.

Balderdash. A "strong government" is the antithesis of capitalism - further, the idea of capitalism, merely an economic system, violating individual rights, is like saying gravity needs a strong government so it won't violate individual rights. :D
 
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Balderdash. A "strong government" is the antithesis of capitalism - further, the idea of capitalism, merely an economic system, violating individual rights, is like saying gravity needs a strong government so it won't violate individual rights. :D

As conservatives are quick to point out, our government is one of the strongest in the world, if not the strongest. Yet capitalism thrives.
 
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