How do you define freedom

There is an old story you may have heard about two new immigrants on Ellis Island. One, on entering the US threw his hands in the air, shouting, "I'm free! I'm free!"

When he threw his hands in the air, he accidentally hit the other immigrant in the nose, which, of course, brought some cries of protest.

"If I can't throw my arms around, what good is it to be free?" the first immigrant asked.

"Well, your freedom ends where my nose begins," answered the other.

That's it in a nutshell. You're freedom ends where my nose begins. So long as your freedom doesn't impinge on mine, then you should be free to do as you please.

If you like to drink or do drugs, that doesn't impinge on my freedom, even though I know it's a bad decision. If you get behind the wheel of a car and drive down my street, that impinges on my freedom.

There is no such thing as total freedom. Absence of any rules at all is anarchism, in which only the very strongest are free at all.
 
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Originally Posted by UShadItComing
Americans are more concerned with little issues such as having the freedom to not wear a seatbelt in a car more than they are concerned about giving all their citizens the right and especially the abiility to attain what was the minimum and should be the minimum for all civilized countries.

That is the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Americans have become traitors to their own constitution. But they will continue to bow to the american way and raise their collective asses to be booted by the relatively few rich among them.

Entertaining if nothing else!

Perhaps you need to reread your history books. The right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is not in the Constitution. It is in the Declaration of Independence.

That is simply a Declaration and has no bearing on law in any way shape or form.
 
It is true that you can only legislate on actions - actually legislating ideas is far too Orwellian.
You mention Orwellian Legislation, I'll come back to this...

I don't want to "legislate away" emotions. That sort of thing lacks subtlety.
You say this is what you DON'T want to do... Yet...
The trick is to use legislation as an identifier
By "identifier", do you mean it should be used to Identify certain people who are not following the law or what?
those who commit hate crimes should undergo some form of diversity training.
For what purpose? I'd assume its your hope they stop being bigots, sexists, racists and/or homophobes (whomever their hate crime was against).... Is that correct?
If so... Thats sounds a bit Orwellian to me. Its one thing to punish people for their actions but Hate Crime legislation is additional punishment for thought crimes.

Consider the early 20th Century South. Murder there was illegal, yet lynching - a form of murder - was common, often ignored by law enforcement officials (sometimes even participated in by law enforcement officials). Although their legal system was far from equal, in that instance the law was equal - and yet that equality was ignored in favor of social norms.
That was NOT a failure of the law, it was a failure of enforcement. Society didn't change so much as the Federal Government stepped in and enforced the law. It took soldiers to enforce de-segregation of schools... Once the racist segments of society saw that laws were going to be enforced, many accepted the new "norm" while the few who rebelled became the social outcasts we know them as today.

Todays issues with social norms conflicting with the law are generally more subtle. I doubt that lynching would come back into style, but problems of social acceptance would continue to be problems. Fully legal equality does nothing to correct these problems - people will ignore that equality at the drop of a hat, if for some reason hat dropping offends them.
Once again there are things we agree on, Laws alone are worthless... They need to be enforced! If the local and state governments are corrupt and fail to enforce equality, its the job of the Federal Gov to step in, clean house and enforce the law.
Society would be quicker to accept a new social norm, that of equality, if the laws were enforced equally rather than writing specific laws to protect specific segments of the population, as we are doing now, and enforcing those. That breeds more contempt than the goodwill and acceptance that was hoped for.... Like we see as a result of AA.

I do like the fact that Obama has come out in favor of reforming AA to apply to people of low socio-economic conditions rather than being specifically for minorities... Since Obama was the one to say it, the idea will now become socially acceptable, whereas whites who have made that suggestions for years have been labeled racists.

Hopefully I'll be able to post more often. I'll be going back to school fairly soon, which removes me from my exhausting job and even more exhausting family.
Congrats! :) We look forward to seeing more of you.
As purely a side note... I'd like to point out that we have disagreed, you are a moderator interacting with a member, and neither of us have felt the need to attack the character or personality of the other... Wonder if anyone will take a lesson in civility from our exchange :rolleyes:
 
Just curious. When I was 16, I seemed to know exactly what it was. I'm a lot less sure these days.

Freedom is the power to decide for yourself what to do with your time, talent, and treasure.

In the states we have a great deal of freedom. I am sure that this is true of many places throughout the world but am not qualified to make statements about all the places people live so will just leave what I said about the US as is.

One way that our freedom is restricted in the US is that we are stopped by law from using our freedoms to harm each other. This is as it should be. The role of government is to enforce the laws that carry out this goal.

Sadly, the government has overstepped it's bounds and attempts to legislate both morality and the economic agreements we have with each other even when there is no harm involved.

The left tends to see the legislation of morality and makes slippery slope arguments that this will lead to a complete loss of freedom. I see little in the way of anyone advocating a theocracy but will join anyone in opposing one.

The right tends to see the legislation of personal economics and makes slippery slope arguments that this will lead to a complete loss of freedom. I do however see much in the way of people advocating socialism which clearly is an insidious master that will enslave us if it can. I invite you to join me in opposing socialism as it attempts to become established more in the US.

I would add that the three areas of freedom that I listed above are inseparable. The old saying is "Time is money" and it reflects the recognition that these are intertwined. Take away a persons freedom to control how they spend their time and you are automatically restricting their freedom to earn and spend money.

Our founding fathers specifically thought that freedoms to say and think what you want was a special freedom and we are all aware of the various parts of the constitution that reflects their ideas. What we tend to be less aware of is that they felt equally strongly that restricting our economic freedoms was paramount to restricting our very thoughts. This idea, strange to us, is foundational to the writing of the constitution and deserves to be defended.

They spoke quite a bit about taxes and personal property to the point of equating the fruits of your labor to a sacred level. And of course we all can reflect and see that the revolution was about taxes. We all know the quote about taxation without representation but do we know the others about taxation?

Here are just a few:

"As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions."
-- James Madison, National Gazette essay, March 27, 1792

"It is sufficiently obvious, that persons and property are the two great subjects on which Governments are to act; and that the rights of persons, and the rights of property, are the objects, for the protection of which Government was instituted. These rights cannot be separated."
-- James Madison, Speech at the Virginia Convention, December 2, 1829

"A wise and frugal government ... shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
-- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

"Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own."
-- James Madison, National Gazette, March 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14 ed. R.A. Rutland (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1976), p. 266.

"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."
-- John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787

"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
 
I think our government has reflected the baseless norms and values that are in our society, which is why there is so much injustice.

When Humans are in control of right and wrong, you end up with socialism. You end up with Gulags, with Nazis creating the superior race. You end up with Pol Pot and Mao.

The key, is an understanding that there is someone higher than man who has authority on right and wrong. With out that, you end up with all the problems socially that we have.

It was a God-fearing society that introduced slavery to America; it was a God-fearing society that saw fit to unseat Native Americans from their ancestral lands and drive them West. If we started digging back further through history, the dirty laundry of Christianity would start to show.

I went ahead and assumed that you were referencing morality as defined by religion, if I was in error please let me know. The assumption that the only valid moral code derives from God, however, does not and cannot work in a plural, democratic society, simply because not everyone believes in the same God (and, therefore, the same set of religiously-mandated rules). While a hefty portion of Western morality, whether it be religious or secular, is based on Christian notions of morality, to state that morality must derive from a specific God is far too limited.

Further, I don't think it's the duty of government to make, or legislate everyone love each other, nor to stamp out stereotypes. In fact, doing so normally makes the problem worse. If any group wants to end stereotypes, simply work hard to break them.

Socio-economic discrimination gets in the way of this idea. Remember, the problem is that the discrimination itself gets in the way of hard working leading to accomplishment; that's one of the top reasons it's bad. It's not enough to say, "Go work hard," in a world where the color of your skin or your preference for romantic partners prohibits you from rising up through hard work.

Without naming any groups, because someone somewhere will twist whatever I say to fit their view... Let us say the stereotype is that purple people are always gangsters, always on drugs, and are all collecting welfare.

An image of Barney with bling and a pistol was just summoned entirely unbidden into my head.

A bunch of purple people living a good life, working hard at a job, raising a family in the best possible manor, will do many times more to break the stereotype than any government run re-education plan.

We're talking about breaking through discrimination as well as breaking down racial stereotypes. How does one "live a good life," "work hard at a job," and "raise a family in the best possible manner" if one can't find a decent job simply because of the color of one's skin?

There are incentives for diverse workplaces for a reason. Without them, your theory is that employers will hire based on merit, not race, correct? How is this measured? How is it enforced? Unless you plan on enforcing meritocracy, you're going to have racist hiring policies. Remember, up until very recently, white people and...purple...people weren't even considered to have the same mental capacity; the idea that a purple person could be as smart as a white person was considered absurd. If the government had stepped back, kept their hands off, whistled and ignored the whole thing, would that stereotype have died?

Would slavery have died?
 
You say this is what you DON'T want to do... Yet...

What I meant: I don't want to "legislate away" emotions as in, I wouldn't simply declare certain thoughts and feelings to be illegal. Using legislation as part of an overall plan to change society's view on something, however, is a notion I'm comfortable with.

By "identifier", do you mean it should be used to Identify certain people who are not following the law or what?

For what purpose? I'd assume its your hope they stop being bigots, sexists, racists and/or homophobes (whomever their hate crime was against).... Is that correct?
If so... Thats sounds a bit Orwellian to me. Its one thing to punish people for their actions but Hate Crime legislation is additional punishment for thought crimes.

I mean that specific, different penalties for "hate crimes" should be used to identify what caused the illegal behavior, and steps should then be taken to correct that cause.

Consider the DUI example. A person is pulled over for DUI, sent to court, loses his license for a couple of months. He gets it back - and what do you suppose happens? Was that punishment enough to convince him not to drink and drive? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. This is why DUI offenders ought to also be remanded to some form of alcohol therapy. The problem isn't that the guy is a sociopath, incapable of following laws, it's (probably) that he has an issue with alcohol. If you attack the cause (ie, get him some help with his drinking problem) then when he gets his license back he's less likely to do it again.

I believe that "hate crimes" should work in a similar fashion. The crime itself should be punished according to how severe it was - hitting a man with a bat gets you more time than with a fist, etc. However, what caused that outburst should be taken into consideration - and if it is a hate crime, the perpetrator should undergo some (once again, useful) form of diversity training to attempt to correct the problem.

Don't think of it as added punishment (though the perpetrator no doubt will). Think of it as obligatory social rehabilitation - or, if you prefer simpler language, trying to fix the problem.

That was NOT a failure of the law, it was a failure of enforcement. Society didn't change so much as the Federal Government stepped in and enforced the law. It took soldiers to enforce de-segregation of schools... Once the racist segments of society saw that laws were going to be enforced, many accepted the new "norm" while the few who rebelled became the social outcasts we know them as today.

The point still applies - peoples' social norms and values can, have, and will override the law. That's why revolutions happen. Well, that and starvation.

Once again there are things we agree on, Laws alone are worthless... They need to be enforced! If the local and state governments are corrupt and fail to enforce equality, its the job of the Federal Gov to step in, clean house and enforce the law.
Society would be quicker to accept a new social norm, that of equality, if the laws were enforced equally rather than writing specific laws to protect specific segments of the population, as we are doing now, and enforcing those. That breeds more contempt than the goodwill and acceptance that was hoped for.... Like we see as a result of AA.

AA speaks to socio-economic problems, not just sociological ones.

That said, I've come to believe that AA in particular would no longer have a purpose if real time, money, and effort was put into cleaning up urban areas, especially urban schools. The issue that AA attempts to address - that African American and Hispanic students in particular have less of a chance of getting into college because of the poorer means they (on average) come from - would diminish greatly if two goals could be reached: 1) improve schools in the inner cities (and by that I mean school property, school resources, and school teachers), and 2) convince kids from those minority groups that they can succeed through education. I'd have to go digging through a pile of statistics in order to comment on whether or not kids are starting to get more invested in their educations or not - I can say that an alarming percentage of kids still aren't, but it's whether or not that number is improving that I don't know.

Side note: For a moment I thought you were talking about Alcoholics Anonymous and was very confused.

I do like the fact that Obama has come out in favor of reforming AA to apply to people of low socio-economic conditions rather than being specifically for minorities... Since Obama was the one to say it, the idea will now become socially acceptable, whereas whites who have made that suggestions for years have been labeled racists.

I've toyed with that idea myself. Of course, there will always be people who cry foul - and with this one, you can bet that someone will soon be talking about how the "new" Affirmative Action promotes lethargy - rewarding the poor and encouraging them not to try and improve their socio-economic standing. Of course, that's BS - why would one from a low socio-economic standing, for whom all things probably relate back to survival (the survival instinct grows stronger the farther down the food chain one goes, after all), be attempting to go to college, other than to raise his/her socio-economic standing?

I think I'm talking to myself, I apologize.

Congrats! :) We look forward to seeing more of you.

And I look forward to being back full-time. I've missed this place.

As purely a side note... I'd like to point out that we have disagreed, you are a moderator interacting with a member, and neither of us have felt the need to attack the character or personality of the other... Wonder if anyone will take a lesson in civility from our exchange :rolleyes:

I can only hope. This is exactly the type of discourse I like to see on the forum - more of it would only be welcome.
 
Consider the DUI example.
I don't think this example is applicable, thats one of the reasons I left it out of my reply.
Side note: For a moment I thought you were talking about Alcoholics Anonymous and was very confused.
This was another reason I kept Alcoholism out of the thread... Any mention of AA that follows alcoholism creates confusion.

Now... DUI and Hate Crimes are not even close. You can get a DUI without being a full blown alcoholic but you're still forced to go through programs that hope to get you to stop drinking altogether... People who drink in moderation are perfectly acceptable in society but thats not the goal of the program and I think thats why they so often fail.

Can you be guilty of a Hate crime without being a Bigot of some sort? I don't think so... and there is no such thing as Bigotry in moderation that is socially acceptable... Least not to my knowledge.

Now if I'm an Alcoholic, I have to stop drinking forever to fix the problem - drinking is an ACTION and not a thought or emotion. However, if I'm a bigot... I have to change my thoughts and emotions to no longer be a bigot.

See the differences that I see?

Besides... we focus too much on things like skin color and ignore things like political and religious philosophy when it comes to bigotry. There are plenty of Bigots who hate religious people and on the other side of the coin are religious bigots. Political bigotry is alive and well too... Anti-Conservatives vs Anti-Liberals and all stops in between.

Bigotry needs to be recognized as being something thats conditional - based skin color, sexual preference, Religious orientation - and it should be fought just as fiercely no matter where its found. We tend to excuse people for verbally bashing Christians but we don't tolerate "Gay" bashing or Racist speech. This double standard has to be recognized or things will never get better in society as a whole.

And again... this is where government does play a role, the Federal Government where the local and state governments fail. Enforcing equality of justice to all parties, not just those who are already favored by society.

To give you an idea of what I mean... I'm not even close to being a Christian but I see where they are persecuted by popular opinion, its socially acceptable to make fun of Christians and Christ but you can't say Boo about Muslims or Muhammad, and I think thats wrong. Just as I think its wrong for Homophobes to persecute gays... but so does the majority of society so its not acceptable behavior... same with Racism, its no longer socially acceptable.

We, as a society, could take a huge step forward if we recognized each of these as simply bigotry rather than parcing them out as being different and separate - Racism, Homophobia, Anti-Theism etc. They are all under the umbrella of Bigotry but we choose to ignore some while highlighting others.
 
I believe that "hate crimes" should work in a similar fashion. The crime itself should be punished according to how severe it was - hitting a man with a bat gets you more time than with a fist, etc. However, what caused that outburst should be taken into consideration - and if it is a hate crime, the perpetrator should undergo some (once again, useful) form of diversity training to attempt to correct the problem.

Why make a special case out of hate crimes? The person's head is no less bashed in than if there is some other motivation. How about anti-rape "training"? Anti-robbery "training"? Anti-drug "training"?

That said, I've come to believe that AA in particular would no longer have a purpose if real time, money, and effort was put into cleaning up urban areas, especially urban schools. The issue that AA attempts to address - that African American and Hispanic students in particular have less of a chance of getting into college because of the poorer means they (on average) come from - would diminish greatly if two goals could be reached: 1) improve schools in the inner cities (and by that I mean school property, school resources, and school teachers), and 2) convince kids from those minority groups that they can succeed through education.

Oh, I get you - the reason white students are screwed out of university and professional school admissions, scholarships, internships, and fellowships is because inner city schools are no good, and inner city kids are unmotivated. Why not penalize the people responsible for that, instead of screwing over people who have absolutely no responsibility for it?
 
Why make a special case out of hate crimes? The person's head is no less bashed in than if there is some other motivation. How about anti-rape "training"? Anti-robbery "training"? Anti-drug "training"?

I'd be all for all of those. I don't know for certain, but I've heard addiction therapy is often a mandatory part of sentences for drug charges. Same for rape; counseling for rapists that rehabilitates should be mandatory in all rape cases. Of course, you're not going to be successful with all rapists and drug addicts, but I believe the program would be worth it.

Once again, I'm not talking about adding any more "punishment" to hate crimes, just measures that address root causes in order to prevent perpetrators from re offending.

Oh, I get you - the reason white students are screwed out of university and professional school admissions, scholarships, internships, and fellowships is because inner city schools are no good, and inner city kids are unmotivated.

I'm not sure "unmotivated" is the right word; more like alienated or discouraged. Like many children, they don't see the world past where they've grown up; and many places like that don't encourage education so much as gun ownership. If you felt like an education wasn't going to do any good for you in the long run, would you be motivated to apply yourself to it?

Why not penalize the people responsible for that, instead of screwing over people who have absolutely no responsibility for it?

It might be hard to find who is responsible. The best you'll manage is vilifying the teachers and administrators of those schools, and punishing them is a bad idea. Their jobs are already highly difficult and extremely dangerous - make them any harder and they'll leave, and no one will want to do them at all.
 
Once again, I'm not talking about adding any more "punishment" to hate crimes, just measures that address root causes in order to prevent perpetrators from re offending.

There's still a problem with that - you are telling people how to THINK. You have no business telling people how to think - trhat's Orwellian. Society is only entitled to punish behavior.

Quote:
Oh, I get you - the reason white students are screwed out of university and professional school admissions, scholarships, internships, and fellowships is because inner city schools are no good, and inner city kids are unmotivated.

I'm not sure "unmotivated" is the right word; more like alienated or discouraged. Like many children, they don't see the world past where they've grown up; and many places like that don't encourage education so much as gun ownership. If you felt like an education wasn't going to do any good for you in the long run, would you be motivated to apply yourself to it?

How in the world can you make the white victims of "affirmative action" responsible for the consequences of minorities misperception of the value of education in the long run??! :rolleyes:


Quote:
Why not penalize the people responsible for that, instead of screwing over people who have absolutely no responsibility for it?

It might be hard to find who is responsible. The best you'll manage is vilifying the teachers and administrators of those schools, and punishing them is a bad idea. Their jobs are already highly difficult and extremely dangerous - make them any harder and they'll leave, and no one will want to do them at all.

Oh, you can't figure out who's responsible, so you just screw over white students. Good thing the police don't think that way - they can't figure out who robbed the bank, so just pick someone of the street and send him to jail for it.
 
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It was a God-fearing society that introduced slavery to America; it was a God-fearing society that saw fit to unseat Native Americans from their ancestral lands and drive them West. If we started digging back further through history, the dirty laundry of Christianity would start to show.

Again, I would claim that all societies claim to fear God, so that point is a bit mute. The question is, did Biblical society do these things? Not exactly. Remember John Newton who was a slave ship captain, converted to Christianity, and wrote the timeless song Amazing Grace. John Newton inspired William Wilberforce, also a Christian, with his anti-slavery zeal. William Wilberforce, a wealthy member of Parliament, based on his Christian views, sought, and eventually won the end of the slave trade.

Remember Thomas Jefferson who said
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Specifically to address slavery. He was a Christian. And it was based on these words that the largely Christian abolitionist movement fought against slavery.

I went ahead and assumed that you were referencing morality as defined by religion, if I was in error please let me know. The assumption that the only valid moral code derives from God, however, does not and cannot work in a plural, democratic society, simply because not everyone believes in the same God (and, therefore, the same set of religiously-mandated rules). While a hefty portion of Western morality, whether it be religious or secular, is based on Christian notions of morality, to state that morality must derive from a specific God is far too limited.

If we can derive morality from more than a singular source, can there be any morality? If all morals can be based on any dreamed up world view, than there is no right and wrong, in which case how can one claim slavery is wrong? Is it not possible for there to be a dreamed up (g)od that says owning another person is ok? Then wouldn't their morality have to be respected as well?

In India, Buddism had thousands of slaves. Although they were considered 'free' from slavery from their former masters, they could not leave the temple, and had no control over their life. Free from man, but slave to Budda? The Toaist view made it clear, only a slave could be "freed to serve Budda" only if their master gave them to be. A run away slave was not allowed to join the group.

In fact, some even to this day argue that the teachings of Buddism support slavery, that you are born a slave to live as a slave, due to karma, the bad karma from a previous life has doomed you in this one.

Now on what moral basis are you going claim they are wrong?

Socio-economic discrimination gets in the way of this idea. Remember, the problem is that the discrimination itself gets in the way of hard working leading to accomplishment; that's one of the top reasons it's bad. It's not enough to say, "Go work hard," in a world where the color of your skin or your preference for romantic partners prohibits you from rising up through hard work.

Not true. If this were true, there wouldn't be any wealthy black people anywhere in the US. Obviously this isn't the case. I've also know some wealthy gay people. Discrimination only limits you in specific instances, and you simply choose another path.


We're talking about breaking through discrimination as well as breaking down racial stereotypes. How does one "live a good life," "work hard at a job," and "raise a family in the best possible manner" if one can't find a decent job simply because of the color of one's skin?

I disagree with the presupposition. I knew a guy from many years ago, a black man from Somalia. Barely knew english, no education. Worked at Wendy's when I was there during high school. He worked hard, showed up every day, was on time, did the best he could. He moved and work at a Hertz rent a car, and became a manager, and last I heard, now owns the franchise.

He came here with almost nothing. No car, two kids, and a wife that didn't work. She walked to the store, his kids rode beat up second hand bikes to school, he walked to work the first year. Now if he can do that... you explain to me how people in our country who can speak perfect english and have a high school education, can not? Are they completely discriminating with only Americans, and not immigrants of the same color?

How about this story of Chris Gardner. He was black, and broke, and on the street, and everyone left him. He had nothing, as in complete and utter destitute. Did he start complaining about discrimination? No. Did he talk about social equality? No. He got back on his feet, worked his rear off, and put his life back together himself, and now he has a net worth of $65 Million. So let's get this straight... with this overwhelming discrimination, he went from being homeless in 1982, to CEO of his own company in 1987, to $65 million as of 06. This is what I'm talking about. (btw, so much for the Reagan years being so bad.)

There are incentives for diverse workplaces for a reason. Without them, your theory is that employers will hire based on merit, not race, correct? How is this measured? How is it enforced? Unless you plan on enforcing meritocracy, you're going to have racist hiring policies. Remember, up until very recently, white people and...purple...people weren't even considered to have the same mental capacity; the idea that a purple person could be as smart as a white person was considered absurd. If the government had stepped back, kept their hands off, whistled and ignored the whole thing, would that stereotype have died?

This is true. Under the atheistic darwin view, some groups were considered lower species, and less developed. They were discriminated against, and viewed as left overs from Neanderthal eras. That said...

I don't see how this is valid theory. If you add incentives to hire purple people, then the yellow people will automatically be discriminated against. Having been in this position myself, I can see how this isn't ending racism, but rather reinforcing it. If the goal is to simply give one group preferential treatment, this is a good policy. If the goal is to end racism, this does the opposite. If you hire someone based on a government benefits due to someone's race... that by definition is... racism.

However, without that, people tend to hire based on what qualifications, or what view they have of that person being a benefit to the company. For example, where I work, the top 2, now possibly 3 highest paid Engineers are all immigrants. One from the Ukraine, one from Asia, one from Africa. All very obviously not American. Yet all very brilliant, and good at what they do. None of it based on Race, simply skill and ability.

Yet, I have worked at another company, and can say without question the reason some people were replaced with others, had nothing to do with work ethic.... it was 'tax break'. And the people who were let go, had a bran new view of racial relations. This is a good thing in your mind? Creating new racist people one job at a time?
 
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