How did Noah get Polar Bears and Kangaroos on and off the ark?

All of the 'crusades'
these were not wars in the sense that they were a bunch of hot headed nobles that decided they were bored and wanted a forum in which to gain booty but would ...well sort of.... agree that they were motivated primarily by religion.


Attacks by various countries on England when it broke with the Roman Catholic Church including Scotland, Spain, Portugal and France.
very spurious....what do you mean? Most were in dispute of territory, greed and accession please could you be a little more specific?

The Mujahadin in Afganistan taking over the country (using US arms)
no the motivation was the desire to remove the invading force i.e. kick the Russians out!

Essentially you have named but a tiny amount. If you look at the Hellenic Expansions, the Romano Imperlialistic Expansions, Chinese Dynastic Expansion or even the French and British Imperialism....

I think we are probably agreed then that most wars have nothing to do with religion!
 
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I do not disagree with your analogy.

I still however think that religion is very important to a lot of folks. It will take more time and more scientific discovery for many to move away from a myth that has been passed down for generations and has tremendous financial support to perpetuate that myth.


I think it will take more time and more scientific discovery to for us to confirm that Christianity and science are in harmony with each other.
In America people have the absolute right to any religion or no religion if they choose. The best that can be done is do all we can to strengthen that wall of separation between government and religion.


Well there is an establishment clause but there is no actual wall. And that clause only limits what congress can do.

A
nd it does bother me GREATLY that churches have been able to get around their tax exempt status and find ways to campaign for candidates. That's the first thing I'd address. Pull a couple Tax Exemptions and see how quickly churches become neutral.
The state, individuals, and organizations are free to say whatever they like as guaranteed by the free speech clause. A church should be able to say whatever it likes. The fact that the IRS has created a million page document that states otherwise is a violation of the establishment clause.

Article VI of the U. S. Constitution clearly states... no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Yup, so congress can't ask that our Presidents be men of faith. But you are free to vote for or against any candidate for any reason including that you don't like the color of his/her socks.
The final demise of America would be if crazy evangelists ever got their way and were able to create a Christian Taliban style state... which is what they really want!::eek:

I agree that a theocracy would be bad both for the state and for religion. I too would oppose one. But at present the fear of such an imagined threat is pretty extreme.

Now if you have any evidence that there are more than just a few crazy evangelists who want a theocracy please show us.
 
All of the 'crusades'

Attacks by various countries on England when it broke with the Roman Catholic Church including Scotland, Spain, Portugal and France.

The Mujahadin in Afganistan taking over the country (using US arms)

On top of that most nations claim to have god on their side when they fight a war. This would include the current rape of Iraq, Afghanistan and also Vietnam etc etc

OK you have managed to name a few religiously inspired wars. Have you at all made your case that MOST wars are religious? No. Do you have any idea how many wars have been fought in all of human history? They are uncountable.
 
Dr.Who;56754]I think it will take more time and more scientific discovery to for us to confirm that Christianity and science are in harmony with each other.

It's my belief you're completely holding out false hope... but in America you're free to do so. Science only widens the gap. Even what now seem like simple findings... dinosaurs. No where in the Bible or any writing of that time are dinosaurs ever mentioned. Yet supposidly God created everything at one time and destroyed everything at one time so they would have had to coexisted for the Biblical time line to be correct.

The explaination for this is simple. First... they just didn't know of the thousands of extinct species of dinosaurs so the man made religions couldn't include them in their books... they didn't know about them.

And then you bring in technology... carbon testing. Absolutely proven to be accurate up to all known civilizations. Dinosaurs date back millions of years. Yet Biblically the earth can only be 6000 years old or so.

It's all just a story that tribal elders made up where ever they were, with whatever they knew at that time.


Well there is an establishment clause but there is no actual wall. And that clause only limits what congress can do.

There is an establishment clause and more. You can even go back into the personal writings and easily see many of our founding fathers were Deists. One of their main goals was to see to it that what had happened in England with the Church of England being so intertwined in government that it actually was the government NEVER happened here in America.

The state, individuals, and organizations are free to say whatever they like as guaranteed by the free speech clause. A church should be able to say whatever it likes. The fact that the IRS has created a million page document that states otherwise is a violation of the establishment clause.

I would disagree. It would be wrong to allow both the benefit from a religious exemption because a church has a protection from government and at the same time intentionally become an organized political tool creating government.

Like I said I'd like to see these regulations strengthened. What individual church patrons do or say is not the same thing as an organized church hierarchy campaigning and raising money for an individual candidate or Political Party.


Yup, so congress can't ask that our Presidents be men of faith. But you are free to vote for or against any candidate for any reason including that you don't like the color of his/her socks.

Absolutely right... no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." is the standard set by the government for the government, and with darn good reason. It stops people from being disqualified for any government position because of any religion no matter how unpopular or no religious beliefs at all.

Individual voters can base their votes on anything. But the fact that our founding father when to such lengths to create not just a "Christian" state speaks volumes... as I've mentioned before.



I agree that a theocracy would be bad both for the state and for religion. I too would oppose one. But at present the fear of such an imagined threat is pretty extreme.

Now if you have any evidence that there are more than just a few crazy evangelists who want a theocracy please show us.

Oh absolutely not hard to document at all. Even if you take away all the pseudo-Christian religious cults... David Koresh, Jim Jones and the like you have several mainstream Evangelists peddling a Christian only country and even going to crazy extremes like proclaiming God put Christians on this earth to kill Muslims (Reverend Rod Parsley 2008). Reverend Hagee would be another example... and their are hundreds of somewhat smaller or at least lesser known mainstream Christian Evangelist Cult types that promote much, much worse than even Parsley & Hagee.

Their utopia would be a country run by a Christian form of "God's Law" and not the Government's Laws. Very Taliban like... only it has a much lesser chance of ever holding because we live in a free society. Most would not give that up even for a particular religious belief.
 
Religion is only important to some people because they have been brainswashed throughout their life that it is important.

It is only a comfort because they have been brough up to believe in the ridiculous notion of heaven and hell and an afterlife.

Everyone is looking for comfort, of one kind or another, in their lives; the ones who aren't probably are looking to end their lives. If a bunch of people in East Nowhere, Maine, derive comfort from going to church and believing in a religion, what is it to you?

If our society encouraged people to be literal all of the time, I think you'd find that entertainment would quickly phase out of existence. What is entertainment except finding comfort in the fictional?

If they were brought up with the truth maybe they could spend more time making their one life better and not keep giving and bending to that thieveing industry called the church.

Rigid definitions of "the truth" always lead to bad things. From a humanistic perspective, there is no one personal "truth" - all people experience the world differently, therefore the truth of existence differs from person to person.

Your rigid truth, your literal world, has no place for dreamers. Will you destroy creativity in order to destroy corruption?

And why is it that you always have to give money to god's agents???

I've only been to church a handful of times, but I've never heard of anyone in my area who was forced to give money to the Church.

It would only be necessary because of the rules by wich god made the universe in the first place. So god making a worlkd that needs salvation smacks of crap planning to me.

But a he knew how it would go...he could have just not made it at all and carried on in eternity without a world.

After all he had managed for eternity before without one.

Did he suddenly get all insecure and need weedy humans to bow and scrape and worship him and live a **** life???

It would be impossible for us to understand the motivations of an all-seeing, all-creating being, since our understanding would necessarily be based in concepts he created. From your comments, it sounds as though you wish to understand the baseline, underlying emotional motivations of God. There would be none - as God would be a being that created the Universe and everyting in it, God would have created the concept of feelings as well. In order to understand "God," one would first have to understand what preceded "God" - the "stuff" that he's made of, so to speak. I don't know of anyone who has seriously tackled that question, so...I suppose we're out of luck.
 
It's my belief you're completely holding out false hope... but in America you're free to do so. Science only widens the gap. Even what now seem like simple findings... dinosaurs. No where in the Bible or any writing of that time are dinosaurs ever mentioned. Yet supposidly God created everything at one time and destroyed everything at one time so they would have had to coexisted for the Biblical time line to be correct.


Then your belief would be based on your own false understanding of the Bible. First you assert that there is no mention of dinosaurs but you just may be wrong about that. Perhaps the Leviathan was a mention of a dinosaur? Then you say that God created everything at one time. This may be what some theologians believed long ago but it is not what the bible says and it is not what everyone believes today. I see no reason that new species could not be created today or tomorrow either through divine intervention or through the mechanism he set up. And certainly it would be incorrect to say that the bible makes any claim that everything was destroyed at one time since it is still here. I suppose you must be talking about the flood of Noah. Yes there are those who think it must have been a global flood and this is no doubt the kind of Sunday School teaching that you have learned. Now you are older and it is time to get a more sophisticated understanding of the bible. It was a local flood that destroyed a lot of what was relevant for the story but not everything. While man and dinosaurs may never have coexisted since we do not know how old the lineage of man is there is really no way to answer that question is there?
The explaination for this is simple. First... they just didn't know of the thousands of extinct species of dinosaurs so the man made religions couldn't include them in their books... they didn't know about them.

Making up facts that mankind did not know about extinct species (since you do not know what they knew or did not know. After all do you really think that the first dinosaur skeleton was found only in modern times) does not support the conclusion that they left them out of the books. Especially since they may have been included. But let's pretend that they were left out. Maybe the author just did not think they were very important to the story. It is even possible that within the six "days" of creation that they were created and then died before man was created. We don't really know if the days of creation were figurative or literal. And it isn't even important.
And then you bring in technology... carbon testing. Absolutely proven to be accurate up to all known civilizations. Dinosaurs date back millions of years. Yet Biblically the earth can only be 6000 years old or so.

The oldest known civilization dates back to the 5th century. But do you really think that mankind did not have civilizations beyond that? And if not so what? The date of the oldest civilization does not set the date of the oldest man or family. Carbon dating goes back only about 60,000 years while the oldest known human fossil could be up to 1.3 million years old. Meanwhile them most recent dinos are about 65 million years old (Unless you count birds and the assumed transitional species between dinos and birds). So who is to say that the gap between 1.3 million and 65 million was not filled in with some as yet undiscovered species of either dinos existing later than currently proven or some as yet undiscovered man older than currently proven. To say that there is no undiscovered member of either group in the middle would be a faith based statement.

Oh, and while a few wackos think that the Bible shows that man is only 6000 years old do you always accept the statements of the wackos as representative of a group or more importantly of a writing that you could just read yourself? Even famed atheist Isaac Asimov in his book on the Bible says that it claims mankind to be much older than that.
It's all just a story that tribal elders made up where ever they were, with whatever they knew at that time.
Well since you know this should we assume that you were there? Or do you just like to make up stuff to malign what you don't like?


There is an establishment clause and more. You can even go back into the personal writings and easily see many of our founding fathers were Deists. One of their main goals was to see to it that what had happened in England with the Church of England being so intertwined in government that it actually was the government NEVER happened here in America.
They argued amongst themselves quite a bit before putting the final form down on paper. Their personal writing can give us insight into what each man thought but in the end what matters is what they enshrined as law in the highest law of the land. And what they did was to create a document that limited Congress but did not limit the individual states or individual men or the organizations that men formed.


I would disagree. It would be wrong to allow both the benefit from a religious exemption because a church has a protection from government and at the same time intentionally become an organized political tool creating government.

Nevertheless that is what they created. A situation in which churches could influence government as much as they wanted to through the same channels as anyone else would while the hands of government were tied.
Like I said I'd like to see these regulations strengthened. What individual church patrons do or say is not the same thing as an organized church hierarchy campaigning and raising money for an individual candidate or Political Party.

How about what just two church members decide to do? Would you permit just two church members to have free speech rights? What about three? Four? how large does a group have to be before it looses it's right to free speech?


Absolutely right... no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." is the standard set by the government for the government, and with darn good reason. It stops people from being disqualified for any government position because of any religion no matter how unpopular or no religious beliefs at all.
yup.
Individual voters can base their votes on anything. But the fact that our founding father when to such lengths to create not just a "Christian" state speaks volumes... as I've mentioned before.

True that. It speaks to what they wrote: that they felt Christianity would flourish the most if the state did not become entangled with it. They felt that if one sect of Christianity never became established then as a whole it would do well and nourish this nation.



Oh absolutely not hard to document at all. Even if you take away all the pseudo-Christian religious cults... David Koresh, Jim Jones and the like you have several mainstream Evangelists peddling a Christian only country and even going to crazy extremes like proclaiming God put Christians on this earth to kill Muslims (Reverend Rod Parsley 2008). Reverend Hagee would be another example... and their are hundreds of somewhat smaller or at least lesser known mainstream Christian Evangelist Cult types that promote much, much worse than even Parsley & Hagee.


Well so far none of those has been demonstrated by you to want a theocracy. But let's pretend that you accomplished your goal, then you will have named just a few. Which would still make your fear of crazy evangelicals to be more paranoia than reality.

Their utopia would be a country run by a Christian form of "God's Law" and not the Government's Laws. Very Taliban like... only it has a much lesser chance of ever holding because we live in a free society. Most would not give that up even for a particular religious belief.

I still have not seen who the "their" is who want a country run by Christian law. The closest you have come is Parsleys alleged desire for Christians to kill Muslims which would be an example of lawlessness and not an example of a theocracy.
 
Let me give you all one last thing to this thread before you complete dismiss all accounts as being widely exagreated.. Arghh my spelling is off today..

First off... Wether you believe it or not.. all things are based off of faith of a given outcome.. and that no matter what we do in life.. there is always a possiblity that the outcome is not what we think it is.

The other thing is that this particular subject follows along the lines as all other great mysteries we pose over the centuries that have one grand foundation.. no literal answer will EVER be given.. from 9/11 truth to JFKassiniation.. there always sits a blurry line on what is rectified as fact or fiction. Simply following scientific means now a days cannot produce the hopeful direct and unbiasied means it was created for. Since belief ethier way in the subject directly related back to god.. maybe the first question would be to there for answer if you believe the bible is correct or not.. Following genisis in on the very first few pages (( the rest starts to trail off from things actually testable )) you find it follows suit with modern Cosmology. However the rest are things unfortuntally we cannot put under a microscope.

Beating down to my point thou.. at the very core of modern understanding of physics itself shows that "faith" is directly built into workings of the universe... I present http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle and even better works are avalible on a google search.. In short.. it states that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know everything about any particular subatomics speed,direction,spin and a handful of others at any one point in time. Because if we could.. in a sence.. we would have the entire knowedgle of the universe... being able to map out were each atoms present location is.. results in us knowing exactly where it will be in the future and the past. Even under the scurtiny of Einstien and 2 other colleages they were unable to refute this to an argument that we do not hold "complete knowedgle" of the principles governing the universe.

Hence.. Because uncertainty is built into the workings of the universe.. to say everything happens exactly to the understanding of man-kind or science is fool-hearty.. those these apply only to sub-atomic particles as we currently know... it does state that if you tap your finger on a chalkboard.. it has a chance that it might in fact go thru the board completely one day as if where made of air. The odds are just .. you know.. like 4 trillion to 1... but it STILL could HAPPEN!!! and sence we are talking about something we have no possiblity of turly objective measuring.. IT COULD have happened !!!


HAHAHA GOTCHA!!!!! did I win ?
 
That's right. Mass murdering Muslims were promised by their religion to be rewarded with unlimited sex in heaven if they got killed while mass murdering innocent women and babies.
How ironic!
There were about 1500 Israelis killed by Muslims on Oct 7th. But so far, the IDF has exterminated 29,000 people, most of whom were women and children.

And you are somehow okay with that.
 
How ironic!
There were about 1500 Israelis killed by Muslims on Oct 7th. But so far, the IDF has exterminated 29,000 people, most of whom were women and children.

And you are somehow okay with that.
They say war is hell, comrade, and they also say payback is hell. The lesson to be learned is that if you do not want bombs falling in your own neighborhoods then stop shelling other innocent people's neighborhoods.
 
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This is agood one.

Apart from problems like how did Noah build the world's biggest wooden ship and where did all the flood water go...

How did he get species like polar bears and kangaroos on the ark and then off the ark without them breeding anywhere but Australia and the polar regions.

And why didn't the lions eat the gazelles when they got off after 6 weeks on board ship.

If this story is not the most ridiculous ever told I would love to hear one more stupid.
The talking snake one and the Gaderine swine event are also pretty stupid. It is, of course, likely that there were catastrophic floods in ancient times, we have them even today. Did they cover the entire planet? No. There is not enough water to cover the entire planet. And following a global flood, there would have been nothing for the animals to eat. The Bible seems to assume that once Noah landed on Ararat, then the animals all found their own ways back to their homes. The penguins went a waddling back to Antarctica, the koalas found bamboo shoots to munch on all the way back to Australia, The snakes slithered back to their former homes, of course, avoiding Ireland, and so on.

How could the dodos find their way back to Mauritius? How did the lemurs manage to return ONLY to Madagascar? The Biblical story of the flood is indeed a silly myth.
 
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