Gun Rights vs. Gun Control

[vyo476]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070504/ap_on_go_co/terror_suspects_guns

That should spark some interesting debate.

 

[Dave]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070504/ap_on_go_co/terror_suspects_guns

That should spark some interesting debate.

I'm not quite sure how I should feel about this one. The pragmatic in me knows that a terror suspect shouldn't be able to buy guns, but Sen. Lautenberg makes a couple of good points. Its hard to deny any constitutional rights simply because of suspicion, and the word "suspect" has no real legal definition. This is one of the first times that I'm willing to say that both sides make some very compelling arguments.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

there are laws against Rape, Murder and kidnapping..and yet there are still rapes, murders and kidnaps!

I guess the only solution is to eliminate those laws entirely!!

Straw Man. Rape, murder and kidnapping deprive people of rights. Owning a gun deprives no one of rights.

Please stop using fallacious arguments.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

Actually, the thread where I directly challenged you to defend your philosophy and its paradox without all your diversionary chatter still sits.

Yes, and it sits with my questions to you being unanswered, because you know that if you do answer them you it will be proof that you're an irrational fraud.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

As a johnny-come-lately to this thread, let me point out a few reasons for "gun control"


1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, & Chicago cops need
guns.
2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict
gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is
due to the lack of gun control.
3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but
statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just
statistics."
4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into
effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime
rates, which have been declining since 1991.
5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a
shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear
of such a lunatic is paranoid.
6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.
7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if
shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.
8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a
smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.
9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense
-- give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman
Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p.125).
10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice
about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on
heart surgery.
11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a
civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a
computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for
firearms expertise.
12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard,
which was created 130 years later, in 1917.
13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land,
using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms,
punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.
14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right
of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of
certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by
the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the
states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but
"the right of the people to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.
15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should
ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th
Amendments to that Constitution.
16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of
course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.
17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't
"military weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault
rifles", because they are military weapons.
18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing,
government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is
responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's
and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus
stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no
background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were
no school shootings.
19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids
handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a
"don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.
20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them
properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.
21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the
typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only
has 20.
22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with
a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers'
advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."
23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering
butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings
at gun shows.
25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a
majority of the population supported owning slaves.
26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a
"weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."
27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns,
which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.
28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned
because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but
the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the
Bill of Rights.
29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters,
computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare
hands.
30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts
of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other
parts of the Constitution.
31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap
lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a
representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who
is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.
32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need
larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face
criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.
33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns
because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.
34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over hand guns
that private citizens can never hope to obtain.
35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the
police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says
the police are not responsible for their protection.
36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but
police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a
building filled with cops, need a gun.
37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers
of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.
38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft
preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government
pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.
39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for
defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on
their duty weapon.
40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the
wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hand

 

[Cody Aragon]

As a johnny-come-lately to this thread, let me point out a few reasons for "gun control"


1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, & Chicago cops need
guns.
2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict
gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is
due to the lack of gun control.
3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but
statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just
statistics."
4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into
effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime
rates, which have been declining since 1991.
5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a
shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear
of such a lunatic is paranoid.
6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.
7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if
shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.
8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a
smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.
9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense
-- give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman
Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p.125).
10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice
about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on
heart surgery.
11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a
civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a
computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for
firearms expertise.
12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard,
which was created 130 years later, in 1917.
13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land,
using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms,
punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.
14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right
of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of
certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by
the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the
states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but
"the right of the people to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.
15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should
ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th
Amendments to that Constitution.
16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of
course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.
17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't
"military weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault
rifles", because they are military weapons.
18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing,
government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is
responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's
and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus
stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no
background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were
no school shootings.
19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids
handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a
"don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.
20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them
properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.
21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the
typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only
has 20.
22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with
a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers'
advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."
23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering
butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings
at gun shows.
25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a
majority of the population supported owning slaves.
26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a
"weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."
27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns,
which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.
28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned
because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but
the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the
Bill of Rights.
29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters,
computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare
hands.
30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts
of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other
parts of the Constitution.
31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap
lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a
representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who
is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.
32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need
larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face
criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.
33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns
because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.
34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over hand guns
that private citizens can never hope to obtain.
35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the
police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says
the police are not responsible for their protection.
36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but
police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a
building filled with cops, need a gun.
37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers
of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.
38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft
preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government
pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.
39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for
defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on
their duty weapon.
40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the
wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hand

I have that on my myspace. I love it. lol.