GOP losing touch with its base

[top gun]

Castle;11923]

However, Clinton's moments of brilliance were countered with bouts of utter stupidity that made one wonder if he ever owned a book bag!

-Castle[/QUOTE]

You know Castle I'm not sure I disagree with ya... but not on the book bag thing.

Speaking as someone who obviously thinks very highly of President Clinton from being a Rhodes Scholar all the way to our President no one was more disappointed by his what probably can best be called "Playboy" behavior.

It disappointed me because so much good that his administration did was obscured by his personal life and it hurt the progression of additional moderate Democratic candidates from being elected for a time.

All that said though. I look at the policies. I look at the country at the time and I weigh that against the direction of the country since.

I came to the conclusion that if his family could get past the tough times and stay together then so can I. I hope Clinton type moderate Democrats get another chance because it would be the best thing for The United States of America and I also believe much like when Carter had to go to break the Iran hostage situation a Democratic administration would now be the diplomatic tool needed.

Just my thoughts... and I respect that your overall opinions may be somewhat different...

 

[Justinian]

Ok

I don't want to get into a big debate about Clinton because I've probably forgotten more about him than you'll ever know and my time of debating about Clinton has long been over. It's an old old topic of mine that has gone by with many other old topics I've eloquently debated over the years to the point when all I remember about it is the conclusion I've made. However, if you think Bush went off half-cocked (which is something you most definitely did not say originally and are only saying it now because of unforeseen consequences) and should not have taken us to war after september 11th, than I say you are a coward and a political mouthpiece of a coward. Fortunately, the most powerful nation in the world with more enemies than any other in the world thankfully seldom listens to cowards. Anyway, for the record, what is an enemy to you anyway?

 

[Justinian]

The television generation - if it's longer than fifteen minutes it better have a commercial break. Usually I'm okay with TV as it is a means of delivering both information and culture to a large group of people, but in regards to attention span it's lobotomized our society.

Then again, maybe if someone with a really great voice and great material would hit the stump, people would be able to stay interested longer. Say whatever you want about President Bush, good or bad, but on this I will not waver - the man is a horrible orator. Just by oratorical standards, the only thing interesting about his speeches is waiting to see if he says "misunderestimate" again.

Sadly, none of the candidates for '08 seem much better.

No argument here. This is probably why his speeches are so simple and dull. It's probably because he couldn't give a good rallying speech to save the lives of his children.

 

[top gun]

I don't want to get into a big debate about Clinton because I've probably forgotten more about him than you'll ever know and my time of debating about Clinton has long been over. It's an old old topic of mine that has gone by with many other old topics I've eloquently debated over the years to the point when all I remember about it is the conclusion I've made. However, if you think Bush went off half-cocked (which is something you most definitely did not say originally and are only saying it now because of unforeseen consequences) and should not have taken us to war after september 11th, than I say you are a coward and a political mouthpiece of a coward. Fortunately, the most powerful nation in the world with more enemies than any other in the world thankfully seldom listens to cowards. Anyway, for the record, what is an enemy to you anyway?

Everyone's a tough guy Justinian when they don't have to back it up. Calling me a coward is a good example of that, which says a lot more about you than me.

I shouldn't even respond to you after that personal attack but I will. Iraq did not attack us. Iraq did not have anything to do with 911. For years the United States under presidents from both parties were not fond of Hussein but more importantly they also didn't do two very stupid things.

They didn't invade Iraq telling the American people that we would be greeted as liberators so no exit plan would be necessary. And they didn't fudge the reports once they were told that the nuclear and WMD connection was discredited and disproven.

Bush did and that's the problem. The Congress was NEVER told about these internal White House briefings on the nuclear and WMD connection being bogus. And with Bush continuing to give speeches saying the old reports were true... Yes, I think that was wrong.

 

[Coyote]

Everyone's a tough guy Justinian when they don't have to back it up. Calling me a coward is a good example of that, which says a lot more about you than me.

I shouldn't even respond to you after that personal attack but I will. Iraq did not attack us. Iraq did not have anything to do with 911. For years the United States under presidents from both parties were not fond of Hussein but more importantly they also didn't do two very stupid things.

They didn't invade Iraq telling the American people that we would be greeted as liberators so no exit plan would be necessary. And they didn't fudge the reports once they were told that the nuclear and WMD connection was discredited and disproven.

Bush did and that's the problem. The Congress was NEVER told about these internal White House briefings on the nuclear and WMD connection being bogus. And with Bush continuing to give speeches saying the old reports were true... Yes, I think that was wrong.

And there was a damn good reason why Bush Sr. stopped short of toppling Hussein.

 

[Coyote]

I think the biggest problem with the Republican Party is the same as what happened to the Democratic Party. They buckled to their extremist special interest groups and lost sight of their center from which they derive most of their support.

 

[top gun]

I think the biggest problem with the Republican Party is the same as what happened to the Democratic Party. They buckled to their extremist special interest groups and lost sight of their center from which they derive most of their support.

That is an ABSOLUTELY true comparison Coyote!

The Democrats at one time appearing Jessie Jackson Left hurt their Party.

Likewise the Republican Party is now seen as being so hijacked by the "Moral Majority" types while at the same time having so many highly published moral dilemmas i.e. Mark Foley, Ted Haggart while at the same time having major candidates like Giuliani that are pro-choice, pro-gun control... many Republican at both ends may likely peel away and at the very least just not vote at all.

Then you also have war fatigue.

It's also important to remember that it's Independents that swing elections. Hard Right & Left voters usually don't change much... it's Independent voters that make a huge difference!

 

[Shoey]

The truth:

Clinton was a GREAT President. He was very moderate politically and he had a wonderful connection with the American people and understood that huge deficits eventually kill economies. He worked to bring people together in the middle east and at the very least kept everyone talking... and as far as the trade center bombing just what country should President Clinton have invaded?

How many AQ related attacks against the US under the Clinton administration?

What did former president Clinton do about it?

Clinton a great president? I strongly disagree.

The Clinton legacy:

RECORDS SET

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

CRIME STATS

- Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47
- Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33
- Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
- Number of congressional witnesses who have pleaded the Fifth Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 122


CAMPAIGN FINANCE INVESTIGATION

- As of June 2000, the Justice Department listed 25 people indicted and 19 convicted because of the 1996 Clinton-Gore fundraising scandals.
- According to the House Committee on Government Reform in September 2000, 79 House and Senate witnesses asserted the Fifth Amendment in the course of investigations into Gore's last fundraising campaign.
-James Riady entered a plea agreement to pay an $8.5 million fine for campaign finance crimes. This was a record under campaign finance laws.

CLINTON MACHINE CRIMES FOR WHICH CONVICTIONS WERE OBTAINED

Drug trafficking (3), racketeering, extortion, bribery (4), tax evasion, kickbacks, embezzlement (2), fraud (12), conspiracy (5), fraudulent loans, illegal gifts (1), illegal campaign contributions (5), money laundering (6), perjury, obstruction of justice.

http://prorev.com/legacy.htm