Fires of revolution sweep the Arab World

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

I think we have to be realistic when examining the situation in Egypt.

We have to ask ourselves this simple question..

What is better? The devil we know (Mubarkak) or the devil we don't (whatever takes his place).

That is a tough question, especially when factoring the impact these events will have on the region as a whole. The US is in a tough spot here.. do we support the leader who will at least work with us and has been helpful in pursuing our interests, or do we blindly charge ahead in the name of Democracy and potentially have an anti-American regime rise to power?

I don't think President Obama has really handled this situation poorly as of yet, and I hope he continues to do so.

 

[dahermit]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

The US is in a tough spot here.. do we support the leader who will at least work with us and has been helpful in pursuing our interests, or do we blindly charge ahead in the name of Democracy and potentially have an anti-American regime rise to power?

Or, do we continue to support Mubarak and he is deposed anyway...but then we are the position where the Egyptians are then resentful because we did not help them remove a dictator.
Nevertheless, the question here is, "What is the moral thing to do?" Support a dictator, or aid the Egyptians exercise their right of self-determination even when it harms our self-interest?

 

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

Or, do we continue to support Mubarak and he is deposed anyway...but then we are the position where the Egyptians are then resentful because we did not help them remove a dictator.

No, we play both sides until the outcome is more clear... which is what we have been rightly doing.

Nevertheless, the question here is, "What is the moral thing to do?" Support a dictator, or aid the Egyptians exercise their right of self-determination even when it harms our self-interest?

From my viewpoint, in terms of international relations, there is no morality...there are only interests.

In my opinion, we should pursue our interests.

 

[Aus22]

All dictatorships , with a few exceptions, that deny jobs and basic rights to its people will fall, People have been educated but there are no jobs. The people protesting are not Muslim fanitics but highly educated, sometimes American educated, unemployed young people. They want the end of corruption, jobs and more equality between the poor and rich. We should support them.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

No, we play both sides until the outcome is more clear... which is what we have been rightly doing.



From my viewpoint, in terms of international relations, there is no morality...there are only interests.

In my opinion, we should pursue our interests.

if we think that way, then we can't be shocked when the people hate us, or when we have no credibility when we say to one nation it needs to reform...while we prop up others that do worse.

I think as a nation we should stand for something more then just our self interest. And as a bonus...so long as leaders in the middle east oppress there people...then we should not expect them to stop trying to attack us any time soon.

When the people have power over there own goverment for once...the problems of there nation will no longer be focused on us...but on there own people and there own rulers.

Seems to me this nation use to stand for Freedom to the world...now we stand for supporting oppression to many...its time we ended that. Lets be more like Washington and Adams and Jefferson...less like the king of England.

 

[nobull]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

if we think that way, then we can't be shocked when the people hate us, or when we have no credibility when we say to one nation it needs to reform...while we prop up others that do worse.

I think as a nation we should stand for something more then just our self interest. And as a bonus...so long as leaders in the middle east oppress there people...then we should not expect them to stop trying to attack us any time soon.

When the people have power over there own goverment for once...the problems of there nation will no longer be focused on us...but on there own people and there own rulers.

Seems to me this nation use to stand for Freedom to the world...now we stand for supporting oppression to many...its time we ended that. Lets be more like Washington and Adams and Jefferson...less like the king of England.

we agree on this one...but most here are way to negative over this Egyptian thing. These are the green shoots of Democracy and Capitalism. Egypt is vastly different than the rest of the Middle East. They are very advanced and supply lots of the manpower used in the middle east for engineering and oil and day to day mechanical expertise.

When I was in Arabia, you could always tell the Egyptians, they were working. And it was no different that America. I went into a small shop where there were car mechanics fixing vehicles and doing lubes and oil changes and repairs. The Egyptians looked like joe the mechanic and they spoke English and were friendly. They are quite decent people.

I am surprise at why it has taken them so long to revolt against Joe Bite Me's favorite dictator ally. Egyptians are natural capitalists they just want some autonomy to have a say in how their country operates.

But as I have said, you don't hear the white house saying the words Democracy or Capitalism. Just like he didn't say it during the Persian uprising. People from Iran are quite repressed and pretty modern but not nearly like Egypt. So here we have the USA once again... Pro dictator while the people there want Democracy. No wonder the Middle east doesn't trust us.

In this country 40% of the population stays home on elections but in the middle east, over 90% of the people vote and they often have to expect their polling places to get blown up. Those are people yearning for freedom and we give them nothing, not even lip service. Why? Because liberals are good with totalitarian government. They think it keeps things stable. It doesn't. It wrecks the lives of smart able people and eventually the lid blows off.

I am all for the Egyptian revolt. I hope they push so hard that other nations in the same mess do the same. How many Chavez and that Iran dictator in the shinny suit does obama have to bow to before Americans stand up and say don't listen to that muslim in the white house, the American people are behind you and want you to push hard and be free.

Americans are traditionally direct and forthright but not American politicians. We don't need to get involved but Americans should be behind the Egyptian people and helping them in the tribunals of the world by speaking up and opposing tin horn dictators and planting the seeds of democracy and capitalism. Egypt is hungry for democracy. Jordan is next. Let the people decide for themselves.

Regards
Doug

 

[dahermit]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

No, we play both sides until the outcome is more clear... which is what we have been rightly doing.



From my viewpoint, in terms of international relations, there is no morality...there are only interests.

In my opinion, we should pursue our interests.

In the early sixties the term for what you describe was called: "The Ugly American".
It was the same attitude that the U.S. had when we forced the Indians off their land and murdered them. It was in the American self-interest that we did such. Also, I cannot help but compare your attitude with the Nazis attitude in regard to the peoples of the countries they occupied during WWII...no question of morality, just self-interest.

 

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

if we think that way, then we can't be shocked when the people hate us, or when we have no credibility when we say to one nation it needs to reform...while we prop up others that do worse.

I think as a nation we should stand for something more then just our self interest. And as a bonus...so long as leaders in the middle east oppress there people...then we should not expect them to stop trying to attack us any time soon.

When the people have power over there own goverment for once...the problems of there nation will no longer be focused on us...but on there own people and there own rulers.

Really? So Hamas is no longer a terrorist organization because they were democratically elected? Hezbollah is Lebanon no longer is any issue because they are democratically elected?

People having power over their own government will not end terrorism or extremism.

Seems to me this nation use to stand for Freedom to the world...now we stand for supporting oppression to many...its time we ended that. Lets be more like Washington and Adams and Jefferson...less like the king of England.

We don't "stand for the oppression of many", we stand for freedom, and want to spread that influence when we can... However we must accept there will be scenarios in which we cannot.

 

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

In the early sixties the term for what you describe was called: "The Ugly American".
It was the same attitude that the U.S. had when we forced the Indians off their land and murdered them. It was in the American self-interest that we did such. Also, I cannot help but compare your attitude with the Nazis attitude in regard to the peoples of the countries they occupied during WWII...no question of morality, just self-interest.

It seems to me that the pursuit of mutual self-interest over the long-term and not absolute moral principles has usually provided an effective (and morally sound) international system that serves the greater good overall.

That mutual self-interest does not only exist in dealings with other democracies.

 

[dahermit]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

It seems to me that the pursuit of mutual self-interest over the long-term and not absolute moral principles has usually provided an effective (and morally sound) international system that serves the greater good overall. That mutual self-interest does not only exist in dealings with other democracies.

That has been the rationalization of despotic governments in the past including Nazi Germany, U.S.S.R, etc.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

So, what your are saying is, that the Egyptians should not have the God given right (as stated in our Decoration of Independence), to self determination and should remain a dictatorship because the status quo benefits the U.S.? Hmmmm? Sounds like Iran all over again. How did that work out for us?

You clearly didn't see my statement on what we should do about Egypt... Nothing. In fact, less than nothing, we should pull any and all political, financial, and military support for Mubarak and the rest of the nations of the world.

I was just pointing out to Pocket that the "revolution" in Egypt is not going to result in some land of sunshine and lollipops as he believes, it's going to end up another totalitarian Islamic state ruled by Sharia law. But again, not our business.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

If you wish to side with dictators who oppress there people....I will support the people who are protesting for new leaders, jobs, and major reforms.

Except when people asking for those things are known as the Tea Party here in the US, asking for more freedom and less government... NOOO, those people - Who PEACEFULLY ASSEMBLE AND DO NOT RIOT IN THE STREETS - are some sort of anti-government wackjobs that you see as a threat to the nation.

Meanwhile, you praise people who riot and loot as peace loving individuals!

Its funny for all your talk about liberty and freedom...you seem to believe those rights should be enjoyed only to the US border..and the rest should do what we want.

What's funny is that your effin retarded and can't effin read, much less spell or formulate a sentence above the level of a 5th grader. Try listening to what I actually say before opening your obnoxious pie hole:

Egypt: Not our business

That means we should let the people of Egypt decide what's best for the people of Egypt and STOP meddling in the affairs of other countries.

I pointed out the obvious, Egypt will become yet another totalitarian Islamic state ruled by Sharia. People just like you supported the overthrow of the shaw in Iran and a totalitarian Islamic state was the result. I offer no support to the dictator of Egypt or the Islamic Fundies that seek to replace him, let the people of Egypt decide the future of Egypt.

 

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

That has been the rationalization of despotic governments in the past including Nazi Germany, U.S.S.R, etc.

So what? You cannot run foreign policy based on the question of "what is the moral thing to do"?

If we operated under this system, we would never have allied with the Soviet Union to defeat the Nazi Germany. In the real world, idealism must often yield to pragmatism.

 

[BigRob]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

Except when people asking for those things are known as the Tea Party here in the US, asking for more freedom and less government... NOOO, those people - Who PEACEFULLY ASSEMBLE AND DO NOT RIOT IN THE STREETS - are some sort of anti-government wackjobs that you see as a threat to the nation.

Meanwhile, you praise people who riot and loot as peace loving individuals!

Haha, good analogy.

Egypt: Not our business

That means we should let the people of Egypt decide what's best for the people of Egypt and STOP meddling in the affairs of other countries.

Why would we not want to pursue our interests in Egypt? If we don't someone else will.

 

[Apathy]

Re: Fires of revolution sweep the Aran World

Why would we not want to pursue our interests in Egypt? If we don't someone else will.

Yes we as a world power must be swayed by the possible actions as another. If we go in like we have we will make more enemies than friends.